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UTC quote
skids wrote:
I thought the key point of the video was at 6:10 where Ryan points out the key to taking advantage of the ABS is to practice a technique of "threshold braking" to the point where it becomes committed to muscle memory.
Threshold braking is not actually in any way related to ABS. It simply means applying the maximum amount of braking force without locking up the wheels. Done successfully, this is essentially identical on an ABS and non-ABS bike, with some minor exceptions.

Ryan's point is simply that with practice, you can out-brake ABS. Which is true, until you fail, either because you're not nearly as reactive in a panic situation as you think you are, or because the road conditions are less than optimal, or a zillion other reasons why having ABS as an adjunct to good threshold braking skills is a wise choice.
skids wrote:
The word he used was "instinctually" which I determine to mean committed to muscle memory or automatic. Is this an incorrect interpretation of the point of the video?
That is a reasonable interpretation of "instinctual", yes. Everything else that you said after that was based on a complete misunderstanding of what "threshold braking" means and how ABS works.
skids wrote:
Most of the contents of my post were trying to convey two points.

1. Practicing a technique to commit to muscle memory very difficult to overwrite or unlearn an old one to replace a new one.
This is where your argument went off the rails. There's no reason to un-learn anything. If you are a better brake operator than ABS, then ABS won't kick in, until you suddenly discover that you're not actually infallible. At that point, ABS might just save your life.

(The notable exception to this is riding on dirt, where the rules are somewhat different. ABS might actually be a detriment in the dirt, but it really depends on the specifics of how the ABS is implemented, and whether the front and rear brakes are linked, and in which direction.)
skids wrote:
2. And if you are going to take the time to practice to commit to muscle memory a technique using non ABS could lead to superior braking which the video itself suggests, ABS can be out braked.

Why take the time to practice and commit to muscle memory a less than optimum technique or form especially when surface conditions are unpredictable and many older bikes just don't have it.
Again, you're assuming you need a different technique to ride an ABS bike. This is just plain incorrect.
skids wrote:
What I do not appreciate was what felt like an insult or put down of my attempt to convey an idea. I don't think anyone here wants to make something personal or a gotcha. It goes against the spirit of the forum.
I have very little tolerance for misinformation, whether it is about ABS, vaccines, or the shape of the earth. You said something that was not just wrong, it was dangerously wrong. I may very well be guilty of being too forceful in my attempt to keep truth front-and-center in this post-truth world that we live in. My apologies for that.
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UTC quote
this is excellent, can we get a thread going about counter steering next?
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UTC quote
greasy125 wrote:
this is excellent, can we get a thread going about counter steering next?
Greasy, I say this with love, as someone that has known you for (checks watch) almost two decades:

Please fuck the fuck right off.
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UTC quote
I deliberately trigger abs frequently on my gts by braking hard from about 40kph. I like to know where the level of braking is and if I simply look at the condition of my front tire it gives a misleading impression - test it.

I have also once used it in an actual 'oh fuck' moment from 60-70kph. it was so nice to hear the tire screech then stop then screech then stop etc. very reassuring to feel that both me and the abs did the right thing.
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jess wrote:
Greasy, I say this with love, as someone that has known you for (checks watch) almost two decades:

Please fuck the fuck right off.
*grins*

okay, I'll do helmets instead.
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I can't speak for everything and some of this might be personal prejudice but I find skills lacking in too many riders around me. The MSF Basic Rider Course has become a dodge. People suffer through the classroom session, pass the riding range on small 250cc bikes and get their license waiver entitling them to ride. Then they go home, hop on the brand new Indian Challenger or Harley Tour Glide CVO's and run off the road wrestling with their 900 pound land yachts, ABS be damned.

ABS won't save the unwary or people who shouldn't be riding in the first place. You want to know the partial answer? Watch everybody and everything and use your spider senses to avoid street villains. And for crying out loud a Bagger isn't a sport bike.
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UTC quote
Just to take a poll from the group how many crashes have you experienced on a two wheeled vehicle?
[/quote]

Too many to count. I've raced my bicycle over a thousand times and ridden motorcycles off road for years before turning sixteen and riding on the road. This accounts for the vast majority of get offs. Nowadays I have definitely lost a lot of ability compared to my prime and allow for a much greater margin of error as a result. I know nearly every accident on the road is avoidable but anyone can make a fatal mistake. Look at Nicky Hayden.
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UTC quote
kz1000ST wrote:
I can't speak for everything and some of this might be personal prejudice but I find skills lacking in too many riders around me.
This is not exactly news.
kz1000ST wrote:
The MSF Basic Rider Course has become a dodge.
Strongly disagree. At least, I disagree that it's a dodge. It's better than nothing, and at least gives riders a foundation to start from. It is by no means the end of rider education, though, and I don't think anyone is representing it as such.
kz1000ST wrote:
Then they go home, hop on the brand new Indian Challenger or Harley Tour Glide CVO's and run off the road wrestling with their 900 pound land yachts
Agreed this is not a good sequence. It would be better if everyone started on a small, used ratbike or something similarly unimportant and easy to maneuver. But this is America, and Americans are, well... they're pretty fucking stupid when it comes to equating horsepower to the size of their dicks.

(I say "dicks" here because, IME, this is a typically American Male problem, and women would generally prefer to start with a smaller bike, and thus demonstrate that they are in fact the smarter half).
kz1000ST wrote:
ABS won't save the unwary or people who shouldn't be riding in the first place. You want to know the partial answer? Watch everybody and everything and use your spider senses to avoid street villains.
Agreed, but I would put a much different spin on it. We learn to be better riders by riding. And also reading, and thinking, and even attending the ERC. But there really is no substitute for doing. And everyone has to start somewhere. So yes, many of the people you see out riding will not be as experienced as you are, or as experienced as you think they ought to be. But how, exactly, do you expect them to get to a level that you approve of?

MSF BRC is, if not the perfect place to start, at least a fairly accessible place to start. And hey, I've seen people flunk out of MSF BRC. In person. So it's at least filtering some of the wannabes.
⚠️ Last edited by jess on UTC; edited 2 times
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UTC quote
Been riding with ABS on 2 wheels since 1988 on a BMW K100rs, it saved my bacon a few times in rainy/slippery conditions where oil build up on the road at stop lights. it was early ABS so in dry conditions a seasoned rider could easily out brake it. However, a few studies found that most riders and drivers did not brake early or hard enough in emergency situations. Most of todays automobile ABS systems override and apply 100% braking force now.

For me being able to maneuver in a panic stop is the advantage of ABS vs measuring the stopping distance. But as most disclaimers read ABS is intended to be a drivers Aid just like traction control....
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UTC quote
greasy125 wrote:
*grins*

okay, I'll do helmets instead.
It's about 17 Celcius outside right now. Laughing emoticon
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UTC quote
So you're counter steering through a corner(or are you?) while emergency braking, wearing an open face helmet because it increases your situational awareness and frankly you're just too handsome to hide behind a chin bar, there may or may not be ice on the road you're not sure because you're unfamiliar with the temperature units that people in this part of the world refuse to give up. There looks to be a patch of oil on the road but you can't tell if it's Dino or synthetic. ABS or not?
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adri wrote:
Could also be age. Isn't there some stat out there about retiree white men dying on motorcycles at a rate that even beats their 20 something year old counterparts?

Perfect storm of a lot of factors leading to that.

And again we don't have enough data to know if these are the guys who never stopped riding overconfident/unlucky/slower to react, orrrrr (probably more likely) the ones who got back into riding after a 30 year hiatus and now have purchased with egos that exceed their skill level.

My aunt's husband is a perfect example. He hasn't gotten hurt but this summer he finally admitted where he's at and said "Why don't you go find me one of those Vespe you ride?"

This is a guy who used to be the guy who buys the fastest production motorcycle available. It's a big step for him to come to terms with where he's at and switch gears and take it down a peg before he would have hurt himself.

You might be getting lumped in with the dudes who are your age riding bikes way beyond their skillset and getting themselves hurt.

Again who are these people and why do they want to ruin insurance rates for the rest of us???
I don't think mid 50s is considered higher risk.

For instance in CA insurance used rate good zip codes with much cheaper comprehensive coverage, now we all suffer for the high crime zip codes.

We'll have to ask Bob Copeland, he'd know ☎️ Bob?
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UTC quote
pigletpilot wrote:
These people won't let their ego go, I tend to call it "small dick syndrome". (No science behind that one).
You don't have to ride fast bikes irresponsibly.
I'd think that a supersport ridden sanely would be one of the most responsive and safe types of motorcycles out there.
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Paluss wrote:
Been riding with ABS on 2 wheels since 1988 on a BMW K100rs, it saved my bacon a few times in rainy/slippery conditions where oil build up on the road at stop lights. it was early ABS so in dry conditions a seasoned rider could easily out brake it. However, a few studies found that most riders and drivers did not brake early or hard enough in emergency situations. Most of todays automobile ABS systems override and apply 100% braking force now.

For me being able to maneuver in a panic stop is the advantage of ABS vs measuring the stopping distance. But as most disclaimers read ABS is intended to be a drivers Aid just like traction control....
When it first came out motorbike ABS was heavy and not too good but they got it down now, got my first ABS motorcycle about a year and half ago Z900RS It worked great.
Like everyone here I am a super excellent rider but one can get lazy or drift off from time to time. I'd prefer ABS on a used bike but it wouldn't be a deal breaker if a clean well priced motorbike comes round but I would for sure pay the extra for ABS on a new bike.
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UTC quote
I have never owned a motorcycle or scooter with ABS and never will. I have done a lot of braking practice on every bike I've ever owned. There are a lot of deserted roads not far from where I live. I have practiced braking as fast as possible from as fast as 100 mph, or as fast as the bike would go, holding it on the verge of lockup all the way to a complete stop.

Yes, that was done on dry pavement, with no sand or gravel. It never rains here, and you can see sand and gravel. Always expect to find sand/gravel/oil/etc. around every blind curve. My former boss, a former Goldwing rider, is now in a wheelchair, paralyzed from the waist down, because he rode around a blind curve to fast and leaned over too far, and rode into a pile of gravel, which low sided the bike, and threw him into a steel guard rail, breaking his back.

I take braking VERY seriously, but to me riding a bike is all about controlling the bike, and I refuse to allow a computer to have any kind of control over my bikes.
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jess wrote:
MSF BRC is, if not the perfect place to start, at least a fairly accessible place to start. And hey, I've seen people flunk out of MSF BRC. In person. So it's at least filtering some of the wannabes.
Me too.

Wannabe rock star rides up on his new Harley with ridiculously high ape hangers. Got the bike because it's what his band buddies all got. Slept through the class, copied off of my test (he got a perfect score). I doubt that the instructor was fooled.

Lunch break. The instructor told us that if we were late to the afternoon class (actual riding) we flunked. Rock Star sauntered in late and was sent home. Last seen riding off on his b-a-a-a-a-d chopper.

There was also a young woman in the other group who just couldn't steer the bike and kept riding off the course. She failed, too.
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At one time, long ago, braking was up to us riders. If you slammed into what you tried to avoid, it had only to do with your own choices.
Then the government(s) (almost globally) took your choice to easily overbrake away when they made ABS mandatory. They wouldn't even allow you to switch ABS off, relegating you too your old motorcycles (the law doesn't even fully recognize scooters) which of course did help you to stay away from all that was mandated by environmental laws.

What will YOU do once countersteeriing will be required of all that ride anything but a moped?

Will you ride silently into that future, or will you try your best to avoid counter-steering* even in the face of adversity?



* disclaimer: ABC -- always be countersteering - as physics won't let you ride any other way.
⚠️ Last edited by giallo on UTC; edited 1 time
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As someone who's PTW doesn't even have hydraulic brakes (cables, rods, and cams only), I find this thread above my pay grade. 😂
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caschnd1 wrote:
As someone who's PTW doesn't even have hydraulic brakes (cables, rods, and cams only), I find this thread above my pay grade. 😂
I'm definitely not denigrating those bikes. All of my Vespas lack ABS, too. My BMW has pretty good ABS.

I'm just trying to nip the "ABS is BAD!" thing from getting a foothold here.
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giallo wrote:
Then the government(s) (almost globally) took your choice to easily overbrake away when they made ABS mandatory. They wouldn't even allow you to switch ABS off, relegating you too your old motorcycles (the law doesn't even fully recognize scooters) which of course did help you to stay away from all that was mandated by environmental laws.
The problem with dystopian predictions of the future is that everything is bold-face capital D dystopian writ large. I would gently suggest that we're already living in a dystopian present, it has little to do with government control, and it's just too subtle for most people to recognize.
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UTC quote
I have no problem with ABS. When we enter the realm of repairability, I'll accept ABS but have no desire to own Keyless systems. Luckily my 2019 Transit has a Key but I still need an RFID blocking pouch.
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jess wrote:
I actually think you'd be quite happy living in Florida. You fit the profile perfectly.
I love that this comes from the same person who posted this:
jess wrote:
- Racism, hate speech, politics, religion and personal attacks are prohibited.
https://modernvespa.com/forum/post2#2
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skids wrote:
I don't think anyone here wants to make something personal or a gotcha. It goes against the spirit of the forum.
I think we think differently lol. Some people seem to be taking, and making things, very personally. I suspect if you asked them to cool it a bit they'd come back like:

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Makes for entertaining reading though, so at least there's that.
CrazyCarl wrote:
Overall, ABS is a good thing for nearly all riders in any conditions.
Agreed. My takeaway from the video was not that ABS = a bad thing, just that it is totally possible, in a controlled environment, to beat the system.

I could try to stretch this into several six paragraph essays spread across any post that disagrees with my views but... where's the fun in that?
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CaliforniaCruising wrote:
I don't think mid 50s is considered higher risk.

For instance in CA insurance used rate good zip codes with much cheaper comprehensive coverage, now we all suffer for the high crime zip codes.

We'll have to ask Bob Copeland, he'd know ☎️ Bob?
Definitely going to depend on your insurance co, region, etc. We have some insurance companies that offered very good moto rates that were recently acquired by bigger companies that seem to want to steer them out of motorcycle insurance... so while I could see them not caring about 50+ for car insurance, it seems like they're looking for any reason to jack up 2-wheel insurance rates, so I wouldn't put it past them... But I agree though, it would be cool to hear from Bob on this.
⚠️ Last edited by adri on UTC; edited 1 time
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adri wrote:
I love that this comes from the same person who posted this:



https://modernvespa.com/forum/post2#2
Thats not really a personal attack though is it. and, not being funny, but you do seem to post stuff just to get a reaction.
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adri wrote:
I love that this comes from the same person who posted this:
You're assuming that I'm insulting you. Interesting.
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jess wrote:
You're assuming that I'm insulting you. Interesting.
It's a character generalization. Take some accountability there captain.
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UTC quote
greasy125 wrote:
*grins*

okay, I'll do helmets instead.
We haven't had a "WhAt TiReS sHoUlD i BuY?" thread in a while. Probably due for one of those soon
CaliforniaCruising wrote:
You don't have to ride fast bikes irresponsibly.
I'd think that a supersport ridden sanely would be one of the most responsive and safe types of motorcycles out there.
Agreed, better than average braking, suspension, tech, etc.
caschnd1 wrote:
As someone who's PTW doesn't even have hydraulic brakes (cables, rods, and cams only), I find this thread above my pay grade. 😂
Big balls energy right there!
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adri wrote:
It's a character generalization. Take some accountability there captain.
Which rule, exactly, prohibits me (or anyone else) from assessing your character as someone who might enjoy the Florida lifestyle?
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I hope this thread doesn't devolve into pronouns ROFL emoticon
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jess wrote:
Which rule, exactly, prohibits me (or anyone else) from assessing your character as someone who might enjoy the Florida lifestyle?
Come on man, at least own the insult. Don't hide now lol
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adri wrote:
Come on man, at least own the insult. Don't hide now lol
I lived in Florida for 30 years. I would take someone saying I fit in with living in Florida as a complement. Why you take it as an insult probably speaks more to where your mind is at.
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adri wrote:
Come on man, at least own the insult. Don't hide now lol
This you?
adri wrote:
I <3 "Florida Man" content lol
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*eye roll*
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jess wrote:
The problem with dystopian predictions of the future is that everything is bold-face capital D dystopian writ large. I would gently suggest that we're already living in a dystopian present, it has little to do with government control, and it's just too subtle for most people to recognize.
Agreed that we are living in a somewhat dystopian present, albeit the advent of mandating life saving safety features in motorcycles could be seen as part of a proof positive that the situation isn't entirely dystopian (yet.)
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On the subject of ABS, didnt Piaggio invent it in the 60's with the smallframe front brake.
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If the former and current MotoGP racers Dani Pedrosa and Marc Marquez can benefit from ABS, so can you.

"Marc Marquez and Dani Pedrosa tested out an ABS as far back as 2014, riding bikes with two rear ' training wheels, one on either side of the rear wheel.

Conclusive tests showed that ABS allowed the bikes to break hard in wet conditions and remain upright, while tests conducted with the training wheels, sans ABS, clearly showed that the front tire washed away in the same conditions.
"

https://onestopracing.com/do-motogp-bikes-have-abs/

Note: MotoGP currently does not allow ABS, though not because it isn't proven to work, even professionals can benefit from it.
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caschnd1 wrote:
As someone who's PTW doesn't even have hydraulic brakes (cables, rods, and cams only), I find this thread above my pay grade. 😂
That's basically ABS, lol. You were ahead all along, just didn't know it.
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UTC quote
jess wrote:
I'm definitely not denigrating those bikes. All of my Vespas lack ABS, too. My BMW has pretty good ABS.

I'm just trying to nip the "ABS is BAD!" thing from getting a foothold here.
I didn't take it that way at all. I was just thinking out loud about my total lack of tech when it comes to the brakes on my PTW.

Both my cars have ABS and various other traction control gizmos. All are fantastic.

I saw a YouTube video last week where a Mercedes sprinter van (AWD) got stuck on a trail, not because it wasn't capable, but because the computer decided to remove power from certain wheels in a attempt to "help". The problem was it removed power from all the wheels. Facepalm emoticon Apparently there was no way to turn it off either. But that's a digression from the ABS topic and unrelated. I just thought it was amusing.
⚠️ Last edited by caschnd1 on UTC; edited 2 times
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UTC quote
adri wrote:
Big balls energy right there!
😂 More like a stubborn old Luddite.
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