@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43212
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43212
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
skids wrote:
I cannot emphasize enough that when training for aggressive motorcycle riding how important that basic form is to performance. I noticed even when I was much older and riding in traffic in the Bay Area on a big street bike as soon as I would see what looked like possible trouble up ahead with the traffic the elbows would come up thereby creating a slightly more forward weight bias and I would usually downshift one cog to be in a slightly lower gear for anticipated aggressive maneuvering.

I hope no-one here has ever trained for riding aggressively.

I was trained in the UK by Police riders to ride assertively - if they'd seen me ride aggressively I'd have been thrown off the course.
@jess avatar
UTC

Petty Tyrant
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 36432
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
@jess avatar
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 36432
Location: Bay Area, California
UTC quote
jimc wrote:
I hope no-one here has ever trained for riding aggressively.
Maybe he meant "defensively"? Just guessing.
@steelbytes avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
2019 GTS300 Supertech E3 55,000km
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4905
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
 
Ossessionato
@steelbytes avatar
2019 GTS300 Supertech E3 55,000km
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4905
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
UTC quote
jimc wrote:
I hope no-one here has ever trained for riding aggressively.
jess wrote:
Maybe he meant "defensively"? Just guessing.
could be that they were using the term aggressive to refer to an evasive manoeuvre - ie the suddenness of a swerve to dodge.
@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43212
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43212
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
I suggest those who use the term 'aggressive riding' look up the dictionary definition of 'aggressive'.

I don't want any aggressive people anywhere near me, ta very much.
@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43212
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43212
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
SteelBytes wrote:
could be that they were using the term aggressive to refer to an evasive manoeuvre - ie the suddenness of a swerve to dodge.
Does not compute...
@jess avatar
UTC

Petty Tyrant
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 36432
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
@jess avatar
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 36432
Location: Bay Area, California
UTC quote
jimc wrote:
Does not compute...
We're just trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.
@znomit avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, Primavera, some pushbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9884
Location: Hermit Kingdom
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@znomit avatar
LX190 Friday afternoon special, Primavera, some pushbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9884
Location: Hermit Kingdom
UTC quote
Spirited?

Like for hooning around cemeteries.
UTC

Addicted
2020 piaggio liberty 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 646
Location: Reno Nevada
 
Addicted
2020 piaggio liberty 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 646
Location: Reno Nevada
UTC quote
I was specifically referring to practicing on a closed course with small bikes like Kenny Roberts trains his team of GP roadracers. If you are practicing "threshold braking" like the video suggests that is what I call aggressive riding.

The idea is to get comfortable on the dirt on small bikes where the speed and the get-offs or accidents or dumps (whatever you want to call them) are relatively minor. The small bikes and soft surface removes a lot of the fear factor so you can push the envelope to see where your limits are.

There was a really good article in City Bike magazine in the mid 90's about this type of training and they even had races mostly for amateurs to practice the skills they learned in the very close quarters of dirt bike racing on 1/8th mile oval tracks. It was called the "Barnstormer racing series".

They had trained professional coaches that would give class room instruction and then head out to the track to practice what was learned with the coaches using megaphones to actually give instruction while riding all on Honda XR 100's. The number one thing the coaches kept repeating to the group was "elbows up, elbows up"

This all pertains to the video suggesting practice to "instinctually" use the brakes from the fortnine video. This type of practice is how you commit to muscle memory the correct form and technique for optimal braking

These skills transfer over to riding on the street and come in very handy when using emergency evasive action type maneuvers. I highly encourage everyone to practice on the dirt on smaller bikes to build skill levels just in case you need them. This is how the pros practice for roadracing on the GP circuit because it builds the skills.

This can be done very informally as well just with a few friends I don't think the Barnstormer series is going any more.

I was not suggesting riding aggressively on the street in normal traffic.

I think for just general riding assertive is a good description of proper attitude but when you spot an idiot ahead of you in anticipation of trouble I take an aggressive posture and will ride very aggressively to avoid an accident.
UTC

Addicted
2020 piaggio liberty 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 646
Location: Reno Nevada
 
Addicted
2020 piaggio liberty 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 646
Location: Reno Nevada
UTC quote
I think the video was pretty confusing. Clearly it looked like if you braked in such a way as to engage the ABS that would increase your stopping distance.

Much better to "practice" to the point of not engaging the ABS "instinctually".

After going back and re-reading the thread I think Jess picked up on that right away with his very strong comment that the video does not mean ABS is bad.

But then reading between the many lines of text and going back to re-watch the video I can see that the main benefit of ABS is giving a relatively new rider confidence in using both brakes in an emergency situation which will save a ton of lives over just using the back brake or not braking at all.

Also a great benefit to experienced riders who just have a temporary brain fart and brake too hard in a panic situation.

The only disadvantage is if you are a very accomplished rider and the surface is slippery enough that in your attempt to threshold brake you engage the ABS which slightly increases your stopping distance. Not really a bad thing depending on circumstances.
UTC

Addicted
2020 piaggio liberty 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 646
Location: Reno Nevada
 
Addicted
2020 piaggio liberty 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 646
Location: Reno Nevada
UTC quote
caschnd1 wrote:
I didn't take it that way at all. I was just thinking out loud about my total lack of tech when it comes to the brakes on my PTW.

Both my cars have ABS and various other traction control gizmos. All are fantastic.

I saw a YouTube video last week where a Mercedes sprinter van (AWD) got stuck on a trail, not because it wasn't capable, but because the computer decided to remove power from certain wheels in a attempt to "help". The problem was it removed power from all the wheels. Facepalm emoticon Apparently there was no way to turn it off either. But that's a digression from the ABS topic and unrelated. I just thought it was amusing.
@gbaby avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Modern Primavera (not pictured); Moto Guzzi V-85 TT
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1605
Location: Los Angeles, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@gbaby avatar
Modern Primavera (not pictured); Moto Guzzi V-85 TT
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1605
Location: Los Angeles, CA
UTC quote
I may have missed something and I may also not really understand what happens on the pavement when ABS does its thing, but in the video the cop floating on his little cloud says that there are no skid marks in 80% of motorcycle accidents, which means the crashing riders didn't brake at all. But if their bikes had ABS and the ABS did its thing, wouldn't that mean that there would be no skid marks?
@jess avatar
UTC

Petty Tyrant
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 36432
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
@jess avatar
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 36432
Location: Bay Area, California
UTC quote
skids wrote:
The only disadvantage is if you are a very accomplished rider and the surface is slippery enough that in your attempt to threshold brake you engage the ABS which slightly increases your stopping distance. Not really a bad thing depending on circumstances.
The alternative is that you wash out the front wheel and hit the ground. Which, you know, I've done more times than I care to admit in the earlier phases of my riding education.

ABS will generally save you from that particular failure mode.
@jess avatar
UTC

Petty Tyrant
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 36432
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
@jess avatar
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 36432
Location: Bay Area, California
UTC quote
GBaby wrote:
I may have missed something and I may also not really understand what happens on the pavement when ABS does its thing, but in the video the cop floating on his little cloud says that there are no skid marks in 80% of motorcycle accidents, which means the crashing riders didn't brake at all. But if their bikes had ABS and the ABS did its thing, wouldn't that mean that there would be no skid marks?
I think the whole statement is... suspect at best. Just because there are no skid marks doesn't mean the rider didn't brake. It just means they didn't lock up the wheel.
@breaknwind avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Red Devil SH150i (10,000)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3213
Location: Orange Park Florida
 
Ossessionato
@breaknwind avatar
Red Devil SH150i (10,000)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3213
Location: Orange Park Florida
UTC quote
jess wrote:
I think the whole statement is... suspect at best. Just because there are no skid marks doesn't mean the rider didn't brake. It just means they didn't lock up the wheel.
Unsure but don't most PTW's have ABS at the front wheel only? Wouldn't that make a skid mark possible from the rear wheel?
I've had my SR500 sideways like a stuntman twice avoiding a car turning left in front of me. Both of which were old people in a hurry to get to heaven(church).
@jess avatar
UTC

Petty Tyrant
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 36432
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
@jess avatar
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 36432
Location: Bay Area, California
UTC quote
breaknwind wrote:
Unsure but don't most PTW's have ABS at the front wheel only? Wouldn't that make a skid mark possible from the rear wheel?
I don't know the statistics here, but the bikes I've ridden with ABS has both wheels covered.
@garthhh avatar
UTC

Addicted
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 555
Location: Reno
 
Addicted
@garthhh avatar
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 555
Location: Reno
UTC quote
My 150 Liberty has a drum rear & ABS front
The cable & hand lever operated drum brake might as well be ABS in most conditions

Aggressive/assertive
I know that I must own my position on the road, being tentative will get me killed
Example: when riding in the right lane, if you ride the right side of the lane, cars will take that as an invitation share the lane with you
@marret avatar
UTC

Hooked
2016 GTS300 ABS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 228
Location: FL and VA
 
Hooked
@marret avatar
2016 GTS300 ABS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 228
Location: FL and VA
UTC quote
I like to use the term offensive riding instead of assertive. Just like defensive riding. Offensive is proactive riding including placement or location in a lane, speed, lane choice, etc. Defensive is what one does as a reaction to another vehicle. Offensive actions can help limit defensive maneuvers.

Classic case is when a driver is positioned to pull out in front of you from a side street. What does one do? Take action or be prepared to take action.

Aggressive driving or riding is bad and can lead to something less than good, even dangerous. Road rage anyone?

Spirited riding is a whole 'nother conversation.
@giallo avatar
UTC

Addicted
GTS 300 hpe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 789
Location: NYC
 
Addicted
@giallo avatar
GTS 300 hpe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 789
Location: NYC
UTC quote
FYI

Largest study of its kind strengthens argument for motorcycle ABS
"Examining fatal crash rates for 65 motorcycle models offering ABS as an option over 2013-19, the researchers found that bikes equipped with the feature were involved in 22 percent fewer fatal crashes per 10,000 registered vehicle years."

https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/largest-study-of-its-kind-strengthens-argument-for-motorcycle-abs
UTC

Banned
Primavera 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 25
Location: Virginia
 
Banned
Primavera 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 25
Location: Virginia
UTC quote
The point of ABS, whether it be on a motorcycle or a car, is to maintain steering control during emergency braking. If it shortens stopping distance, great. Where this idea that it will always make you stop shorter came from, I don't know. Even the salesmen (bikes and cars) get this wrong.

I remember talking to a Nissan salesman about a 200SX (shows you how long ago) and he actually tried to talk me OUT of getting one with ABS! His argument, ABS sometimes take longer to stop. I politely informed him that THAT was not the point of ABS. ABS is to where you don't skid and when you don't skid, you can continue to have steering control, thereby hopefully avoiding a crash in the first place.

Cheers
UTC

Banned
Primavera 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 124
Location: Southwestern Virginia
 
Banned
Primavera 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 124
Location: Southwestern Virginia
UTC quote
I like Ryan F9. I think he's pretty on point here. Anyway, I'd rather have ABS than not. Keeping control is most important to me. IMHO.
DoubleGood Design banner

Modern Vespa is the premier site for modern Vespa and Piaggio scooters. Vespa GTS300, GTS250, GTV, GT200, LX150, LXS, ET4, ET2, MP3, Fuoco, Elettrica and more.

Buy Me A Coffee
 

Shop on Amazon with Modern Vespa

Modern Vespa is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com


All Content Copyright 2005-2024 by Modern Vespa.
All Rights Reserved.


[ Time: 0.0403s ][ Queries: 3 (0.0095s) ][ Debug on ][ 309 ][ Thing One ]