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Might be getting ahead of myself, but I am hoping to build a bullet proof tourer over the winter using a Molossi VR-1 case I have.

The VR1 case might be overkill for a touring engine, but I thought being able to go to a PHBH type carb would give me more flexibility even if harder to set up in the long run.

My main goal is reliability, but budget is also a consideration. Hoping for a straightfoward build that is easy to maintain on the road.

For the cylinder kit, I considered going with the SIP Serie Pro kit with GS piston, but the Malossi 210 Sport is probably a better bet. If I understand correctly, it should be pretty much plug and play with the Malossi case in terms of transfers lining up.

Crank - SIP long stroke reed crank or 57mm SIP bell crank (I don't want to machine the case). Open to suggestions…

Big box exhaust

I will be using an LML EFL gearset

Primary-?

Clutch-?

Carb-?

Hoping this is not too ambitious for me. Looking for a tried and true, meat and potatos kind of build. Speed is the least of my concerns. In its most boring configurarion, it will be more than fast enough for me.

Thanks.
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"Looking for a tried and true, meat and potatos kind of build. Speed is the least of my concerns. In its most boring configurarion, it will be more than fast enough for me."

Whilst I wouldn't kick VR 1 cases out of bed if they farted I also wouldn't underestimate the ongoing ease of operation that elestart and autolube provides to a dedicated Touring scooter.

In NZ a very common, very tried and true, boring meat and potatoes recipe, that meets your desires as above is a PX200 disc with 60mm cut crank, SIP exhaust, and a (hater's gon hate) easy-to-jet Pinasco SuperSport kit.

Windshield, side stand, front rack & top box, and heated grips and phone charger complete the ensemble.

Though there's also much to be said regarding upholding the ancient tradition of touring on a good old stock standard Vespa.

A shop in Germany propose this effortless recipe for the perfect touring Vespa engine: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/blog/the-perfect-vespa-touring-engine_p273

All the best with whatever you build - looking forward to the postcards...
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Seems a shame not to use a decent Alu kit and a 60mm crank if you've already invested in a VR-One casing. The 60mm crank gives you a few more cc which is what you want for touring, and it doesn't require any case machining.

I'm planning a touring build over this winter, with reliable high speed (it's all relative) cruising and hill/twisty mountain road climbs in mind, carrying a pillion and luggage. I'm warming to the VR-One, purely for 'belt and braces' strength and longevity, but I'm less keen on the noise from the reed and induction.
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I already have the Malossi case. I've never had an electric start. Autolube is nice, but I can live without it. The Malossi case was more of a belt and suspenders idea. I liked the idea of a stronger case and a new case. It's not that easy to find a decent 200 case with an undamaged rotary valve.

I agree about going with a newer aluminum cylinder if not the Malossi as well as a 60 mm crank. I guess it's only the 60 mm bell cranks that require machining the case.

For a carb, I wanted to keep it simple but get away from the Si carb. My thought was that a PHBH carb would be more flexible when trying to dial it in.
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A 60 crank is fine, 62s need machining…
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Open questions: What's the best crank style for a VR-One casing if being built for torque and long legs touring duty? I thought a full circle is best suited to these cases given the forward position of the inlet. Is a bell crank still a good option, or is it better suited to a stock casing? What's the definitive on this, assuming either a Malossi Sport or Quattrini cylinder? How does a high RPM screamer build change this?
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swa45 wrote:
Open questions: What's the best crank style for a VR-One casing if being built for torque and long legs touring duty? I thought a full circle is best suited to these cases given the forward position of the inlet. Is a bell crank still a good option, or is it better suited to a stock casing? What's the definitive on this, assuming either a Malossi Sport or Quattrini cylinder? How does a high RPM screamer build change this?
60mm bell crank is ideal.
The inlet is still over the front of the crank. And the crankcase volume itself was sized for a 150cc in some post war decade. Which stayed near the same regardless of cc. T5 is the only exception I can think of but that's a 125.
Not saying any other crank doesn't work but its not the best.
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Jack221 wrote:
60mm bell crank is ideal.
The inlet is still over the front of the crank. And the crankcase volume itself was sized for a 150cc in some post war decade. Which stayed near the same regardless of cc. T5 is the only exception I can think of but that's a 125.
Not saying any other crank doesn't work but its not the best.
Thanks Jack. So the minimal material on a bell crank allows for more space in the crankcase for the fuel/air charge? Something like a SIP/Uncle Tom or a Kingwelle, funds permitting
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swa45 wrote:
Thanks Jack. So the minimal material on a bell crank allows for more space in the crankcase for the fuel/air charge? Something like a SIP/Uncle Tom or a Kingwelle, funds permitting
Exactly. Anything to give more volume. Reed block. Base packer. Longer rod. This matters less if racing or sprinting.
When going longer than 60mm on the stroke, the strength/quality of the crank starts to be very important. A 64mm crank on a tuned cylinder, at max rpm is in the self destruct zone.
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Ok, so 60mm bell crank=no machining, 62+ requires it. Glad I asked.
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Problem is there's no quality 60 bell crank. Only option is the Mazzie and that tends to twist unless you weld it. All the good cranks, SIP - Primatist / Uncle Tom, Kingwelle are 62+
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SaFiS wrote:
Problem is there's no quality 60 bell crank. Only option is the Mazzie and that tends to twist unless you weld it. All the good cranks, SIP - Primatist / Uncle Tom, Kingwelle are 62+
I'm not dead set on a bell crank. Is there another good option for a sturdy 60mm reed crank?
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SaFiS wrote:
Problem is there's no quality 60 bell crank. Only option is the Mazzie and that tends to twist unless you weld it. All the good cranks, SIP - Primatist / Uncle Tom, Kingwelle are 62+
I thought there was a 60mm Uncle Tom at one point, but I could easily be mistaken.

And I agree about needing to weld the Mazzie if you go that route. I've lost two of them to twisting, to the point I've considered learning to rebuild a big end to avoid having to buy more.
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chandlerman wrote:
I thought there was a 60mm Uncle Tom at one point, but I could easily be mistaken.
The only 60 Uncle Tom I've seen is for a small block (105mm rod)…
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SaFiS wrote:
Problem is there's no quality 60 bell crank. Only option is the Mazzie and that tends to twist unless you weld it. All the good cranks, SIP - Primatist / Uncle Tom, Kingwelle are 62+
This one is ok but out of stock as soon as they come in.
https://www.scooter-center.com/en/crankshaft-kingwelle-reed-valve-con-rod-primatist-60mm-stroke-110mm-con-rod-piston-pin-oe16mm-vespa-px-e.g.-for-malossi-sport/mhr-210/221-kw0023?number=KW0023
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And also still requires the cases to be ground out. Still, looks nice, but for $600, it should!
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Yeah, that's a little steep for me. I'm not that kind of playa…
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SaFiS wrote:
Problem is there's no quality 60 bell crank. Only option is the Mazzie and that tends to twist unless you weld it. All the good cranks, SIP - Primatist / Uncle Tom, Kingwelle are 62+
...and that's why my 2005 PX210's engine has been disassembled for the past year+. I'm still waiting for a decent 60mm crank to be developed.
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I don't think it would matter much to me if I went with a quality 57mm crank. It's not gonna suck either way. Someone other than Chandlerman saying that 60mm Mazz cranks twist is enough to put me off them.

Still waiting patiently for him to blow up his first 306 .
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orwell84 wrote:
I don't think it would matter much to me if I went with a quality 57mm crank. It's not gonna suck either way. Someone other than Chandlerman saying that 60mm Mazz cranks twist is enough to put me off them.

Still waiting patiently for him to blow up his first 306 .
Well, we all better chip in for this, as art relies on patronage.

And you know when he kerplodes it, it will be artistic.
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orwell84 wrote:
I don't think it would matter much to me if I went with a quality 57mm crank. It's not gonna suck either way. Someone other than Chandlerman saying that 60mm Mazz cranks twist is enough to put me off them.

Still waiting patiently for him to blow up his first 306 .
All cranks can twist if running hot for long periods. The old cranks were bad but modern Mazzuchelli cranks are balanced for malossi 210 pistons and do their job just fine.
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Jack221 wrote:
All cranks can twist if running hot for long periods. The old cranks were bad but modern Mazzuchelli cranks are balanced for malossi 210 pistons and do their job just fine.
Fingers crossed, my 221 MHR can be a bitch at times, but the Mazz bell has been great. The first one suffered a threaded flywheel side, but I think that my my fault Facepalm emoticon
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Setting aside that I'm using the VR1 case…which might suggest I have big plans for it in terms of power and speed…but I don't. The case was more about starting with a solid foundation compared to the 200 case I have, as well having the flexibility of a real reed valve.

What other cylinder kits would work well?

I think the 60mm crank is a good idea, but the Malossi kit might be overkill for me.

Thinking of PC73's suggestion of a stock PX with a 60mm crank and Jack's O-tuned 200. That's why I was considering a Serie Pro with GS piston, or something more stock+ but simple. I worry about blowing up a spendy kit, especially if it's more than I need.

Also comes from my lack of success in building a 60 mph cruiser with a small block engine. Thinking a 200 will be easier to get there without melting it and with less fuss.
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I would only consider a Malossi 210 Sport (not MHR), and just go easy on the carb and exhaust. The VR-One case is already ported for either of the Malossi kits. You don't have to go high end with the other components, despite starting with a high end casing. Maybe just keep to a 30mm PHBH and a SIP Road 3. The Mazz 60mm bell will be fine (and good value), as you won't be creating a power beast that will get anywhere near twisting a crank IMHO.
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Just bolting a 210 onto VR-1 cases is going to give you more performance than you're claiming to want. Your description is really for a blueprinted, but otherwise stock P200. The reeds and 210 will give you all you need for a 60-65 MPH all day cruiser.

I slapped a 210 on my P200, no upgrades but matching the ports, and it'll do 65 until I need gas or get tired of sitting on it and the CHT will never break 300f. I even have autolube.

You're way overthinking this when you could already be riding it.
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chandlerman wrote:
Just bolting a 210 onto VR-1 cases is going to give you more performance than you're claiming to want. Your description is really for a blueprinted, but otherwise stock P200. The reeds and 210 will give you all you need for a 60-65 MPH all day cruiser.

I slapped a 210 on my P200, no upgrades but matching the ports, and it'll do 65 until I need gas or get tired of sitting on it and the CHT will never break 300f. I even have autolube.

You're way overthinking this when you could already be riding it.
I'm a chronic over thinker, but Swa's suggestion sounds pretty straightforward. Easier than blueprinting a stock 200. Last thing is clutch and cog. I'm assuming the stock 7 spring might not be enough.
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orwell84 wrote:
I'm a chronic over thinker, but Swa's suggestion sounds pretty straightforward. Easier than blueprinting a stock 200. Last thing is clutch and cog. I'm assuming the stock 7 spring might not be enough.
I agree with Swa. Just get a CR-80 superstrong, SIP or BGM will both work fine, and start building.
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chandlerman wrote:
I agree with Swa. Just get a CR-80 superstrong, SIP or BGM will both work fine, and start building.
I'm thinking a 22 or 22t clutch cog to go with the LML/EFL primary.

Otherwise, sounds almost like LEGOs. The PBHB 30 will probably have its own learning curve but since it's a pretty popular combo, I imagine that there will be a lot of jetting info to get me started.
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Why not keep the 23/65?

22/68 makes no sense for a 200cc touring build.

You can use the EFL stack, just pick up a new primary (or even just a 65t gear ring if you're rebuilding it).

My P200 motor has a Stella gear stack, but OG primary & clutch and works great. Calmer RPM's at cruising speeds, too.
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chandlerman wrote:
Why not keep the 23/65?

22/68 makes no sense for a 200cc touring build.

You can use the EFL stack, just pick up a new primary (or even just a 65t gear ring if you're rebuilding it).

My P200 motor has a Stella gear stack, but OG primary & clutch and works great. Calmer RPM's at cruising speeds, too.
Ok, I will be rebuilding the primary so the 65 ring gear makes sense.
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swa45 wrote:
I would only consider a Malossi 210 Sport (not MHR), and just go easy on the carb and exhaust. The VR-One case is already ported for either of the Malossi kits. You don't have to go high end with the other components, despite starting with a high end casing. Maybe just keep to a 30mm PHBH and a SIP Road 3. The Mazz 60mm bell will be fine (and good value), as you won't be creating a power beast that will get anywhere near twisting a crank IMHO.
All good. Do this.

O tune is not a bolt on. Lots of Dremel work.
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Jack221 wrote:
All good. Do this.

O tune is not a bolt on. Lots of Dremel work.
I hear ya. Blue printing an engine is a higher level skill set. It's what separates engine builders from rebuilders. I prefer to think of myself as a competent assembler. Real tuning or building is beyond what I have time and interest level…as well as skill.
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After an easy install and setup of my stock 200, I took a quick look at the Serie Pro P&C with GS piston and head…thinking it could be a cheaper and easier setup.

It's actually getting close to the same money as the Malossi kit. I don't think it would make it an easier or harder build to dial in. I think the hard part will be setting up the side draft carb. But that the result will be better in the end.

The Malossi case +cylinder kit is probably the closest to LEGO P&P that you can get.
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Depending if you have lots of hills that you have to traverse, you might think about swapping in a short 4th gear. And if you end up buying a new clutch, you can swap in a 24 tooth.

I'd also be hesitant to use any LML parts inside an engine case that has a 210 cylinder. They're fine for a stock 150 Stella, but once you throw power at it, parts start to break.
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whodatschrome wrote:
Depending if you have lots of hills that you have to traverse, you might think about swapping in a short 4th gear. And if you end up buying a new clutch, you can swap in a 24 tooth.

I'd also be hesitant to use any LML parts inside an engine case that has a 210 cylinder. They're fine for a stock 150 Stella, but once you throw power at it, parts start to break.
That was something I was considering and one of my reasons for not straying far from stock. Stuff breaks, even some of the expensive stuff, or doesn't play well together. In two years, I have yet to hit 60 mph. It's me, not the bike. I don't ride hard enough, for example, to feel the difference between an efl/non efl gearbox. At times, I would rather rebuild a stock engine by the side of the road than slide into the 6 month tuning spiral that has been my experience so far with a mildly tuned engine.
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I've had a Stella EFL stack in my mildly tuned P200 for a year or two now and have had no issues, even though I was jumping in and out of gears pretty bad until I replaced the cruciform and second gear a couple months ago.

In my overall experience, the thing that kills gearboxes is NOT high power motors. It's missing shifts and not doing maintenance (e.g. changing the cruciform, clutch plates, bearings, etc.) at the rates that tuned builds demand.

For example, I've run LML gear stacks in my HIGHLY tuned Stella motors for over ten years now, and other than a missed shift or natural wear and tear, never had an issue. If the steel was inherently inferior, those gearboxes would have failed. Full stop.

So while there is certainly no shortage of bad parts out there, LML gear stacks ain't it.
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chandlerman wrote:
I've had a Stella EFL stack in my mildly tuned P200 for a year or two now and have had no issues, even though I was jumping in and out of gears pretty bad until I replaced the cruciform and second gear a couple months ago.

In my overall experience, the thing that kills gearboxes is NOT high power motors. It's missing shifts and not doing maintenance (e.g. changing the cruciform, clutch plates, bearings, etc.) at the rates that tuned builds demand.

For example, I've run LML gear stacks in my HIGHLY tuned Stella motors for over ten years now, and other than a missed shift or natural wear and tear, never had an issue. If the steel was inherently inferior, those gearboxes would have failed. Full stop.

So while there is certainly no shortage of bad parts out there, LML gear stacks ain't it.
This ^^

A well set up quality clutch is essential to the long life of gearboxes. Change gear well and even tuned engines can last.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4355
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4355
Location: London UK
UTC quote
A bolted on Malossi Sport is pretty low tune. Not going to be a racer.
OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2772
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2772
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
So far, I've had pretty good luck with LML gear boxes. The gear stacks in both looked to be in good shape. One engine I know has been ridden pretty hard. In both engines I've rebuilt, I replaced the cruciform, rebuilt the cush drives and done the clutch, bearings and seals. Usually takes a few rides and cable adjustments before I get smooth shifting.
@ginch avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8510
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8510
Location: Victoria, Australia
UTC quote
I think with the Malossi Sport, you'll wonder why you put it off at all. In reality, they're pretty much like stock, only much, much better. I'm with swa on the 30 PHBH - you have the intake already with the VR-1. There is plenty of setup advice around, not to mention Jack of course!
swa45 wrote:
I'm warming to the VR-One, purely for 'belt and braces' strength and longevity, but I'm less keen on the noise from the reed and induction.
Swa, on my VR-1 setup I use a PHBH 30 and the stock bellows, it's a perfect fit. Inside the frame I have a silicone elbow connected to a pod style filter. The elbow faces down so it's out of the way. So I get the cool(er) air from the frame, and a filter and it all works fine - I'll see if I can find a picture.

The point in telling you all of this is that the other week I had to take the tank out, and I thought I'd clean the air filter. The next day I put the tank back and forgot about the filter... man, is it loud! That was a big surprise. So I see what you mean, but it's solveable. With the filter it's not much of a different sound than stock.

Can't find a pic of mine, here's how a friend did his, I suspect like this would still be loud.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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