Modern Vespa

Here is a better photo.

Looking at your "from the outside" picture, I sure don't see it.

That's the ball cage gap you see. Outside race is definitely seated. It's the same on my T5 engine. Don't push it anymore you may crack the cases, they're very thin there…

Ok. Thank you. I'm gonna go with that.

I see it now. The gap is the outer cage seated.

I don't see any cracks and the bearings spin freely. I think it should be ok.

A bit more progress on the usual things. Pics for when I start worrying whether I installed it correctly. Always starts as soon as I can no longer check.

Measuring the swing arm tube and the buffers that came with the case, it looks like I will need the 7.5mm spacer washers. Only place I found them in the USA is Racing Planet, though not sure if they actually ship from the US. Anybody know how they are for shipping or know a US source? Also missing a snap ring for the axle bearing.

Thanks.

I needed the spacers on mine. Couldn't find them in the States. Since ordering from SIP and Scooter Center never seems to end, picked some up on another smoking credit card order.😳

Seems like you are treading the exact same path as I did with my VR-One

Yes. I have referred to your thread many times. I always get nervous fitting parts with an interference fit. Robot from scooterwest mentioned in a video that some of the bearings on a Malossi case were hard going in. Overall, it seems well made. And I would expect it to be harder on a shiny brand new casting. The cases I've worked on before have all been old. Better a little tight than too loose.

After I get the crank in, I'm gonna bolt the cases together and see how it spins. I will probably do the same with the before sealing and closing the cases. It's kind of a mish-mash of aftermarket parts, so I don't necessarily expect that they will all play nicely together.

I'm not in a hurry to get it done, but it's been a nice break from sanding the bus. Would be fun to throw it in the Stella and start it. And fewer parts to lose.

Orwell not sure if you've heard this one, but apparently the kick start o-ring groove in the case is very slightly bigger than stock. I bought an o-ring from sip for this that also very slightly bigger for mine. Sorry don't have a link atm.

Thank you. I'll find it.

Crank race on and crank installed. Went pretty smoothly.

If your driveshaft is suitable use an internal oil seal

That was one of my next questions. It's an LML/EFL driveshaft. I don't which internal seal would go with it. Since this would seal the bearing from gearbox oil, is that bearing packed with grease?

Your driveshaft if later efl should have the sealing surface.

You'll need, internal seal, sealed wheel bearing and a dust cover.

Those cases don't have a weep hole but drilling that is optional.

Worth using the internal seal and if you're doing another sip order anyway.....

I'll have a look. The bearing is already installed.

Checked out the gear stack today. End play was .014" even with the thicker SIP short 4th. Within spec, but on the sloppy side. Gears have some dings. I'm wondering if there are any I should replace.

Thanks for looking.

Those gears are pretty much all toast for a high performance bike, IMO.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. Thanks for having a look. They're from a spare Stella engine that came with my scooters.

I would run LML gears even in a performance engine, but these look quite worn. I will post pics of the driveshaft too.

Definitely going to replace second and third gears. Not sure about first. Does anybody actually care about first gear?

There seem to be 2 first gears floating around for PX; a 58t and 57t. I know the LML gearbox uses a 57t. Would the 58t work? It's cheaper and more commonly available in the US.

You could also easily make your own out of 5/16" HDPE plastic and a couple hole saws.

Yes, we care about 1st. You don't want to slip out of 1st gear while under heavy throttle.

And as for any LML anything (gears, axle, clutch, crank, tree, clutch, cross, ect) inside a tuned engine, you're playing with fire. No doubt Piaggio or high quality aftermarket ain't cheap, but it's all part of paying the performance piper. If you've never ridden a tuned up vespa with a close ratio transmission, you're missing out.

I've ran the infamous Indian made gearbox, tree and driveshaft inside the Budget-Malossi210-with-welded-piston engine without a hitch this far with 16hp on the dyno.

Would not stuff these parts inside a lovely VR-casing though

Likewise, I ran the original LML gears in my highly tuned LML motor until the teeth broke or the lands were about as hammered as yours are.

If they were in decent shape, I'd run them. Yours just aren't in decent shape.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I agree with everyone completely about not using sketchy parts inside a performance engine. I always tell myself that since my riding style is pretty relaxed that I won't be pushing it as hard as the typical NSM member. But that started changing with new shocks on my Stella, getting the 187 engine sorted out and improvement in my riding skills. I end up choosing to ride the Stella over the stock 200 because it's just more fun.

The tree from the spare Stella engine looks to be in good condition and I rebuilt it with a new 65t primary, so I think I will keep that.

I will give Dave a call at Scooter Mercato and see what he can put together for some gears and a new drive shaft.

Last part up for inspection: the driveshaft.

Nothing jumps out at me.

Also, should I go with a 57t or 58t first gear?

Thanks!

This is the internal seal shaft. Looks fine. Going internal?

I wasn't planning to. The bearing is already in. The external seal has always worked fine.

I believe that the less teeth that are on the gear makes it longer. If you're after the best overall acceleration, then you'd install a longer 1st, longer 2nd, standard 3rd, and short 4th. But if you're only changing out the 1st gear, then it might be detrimental to only shorten that one? Of course it's best to match all the components so that they harmonize with the tuning of the cylinder kit, but if you just go at it from an affordability standpoint of picking and choosing a grab bag of just simply what fits or not, then the engine isn't going to work at its designed potential. In other words, detrimental.

Right. The P 200e has a 57t first as do the PX 150 EFL (I think) so a 57t probably makes the most sense. I wasn't planning on making any changes to the gearing other than a short 4th. I already tried it on my 200 and I like it much better. It pulls just fine in first too.

I'd put the longer first in it. Keeping first on the ground when you hit the power band of any thing worth riding ( ) makes a huge difference in overall acceleration.

You're already going to be significantly extending the top end of each gear through extra RPM's with the new top end, so you'll still be short-shifting first, but you'll hit second a little higher in the power band when you do.

57t it is then. Thanks!

Nothing very exciting to report. Received a new first gear and the spacers for the swing arm buffers. 2nd and 3rd arrive today.

Last thing I will need to order are spacers for the drive shaft, unless the new gear stack magically goes together with acceptable end play.

Next will be buttoning up the bottom end and figuring out cylinder timings.

Last thing will be deciding which bike it goes into…unless I find another frame for it…😉

Building a race horse to trot along is a wiseman's dream. Put a hitch on it, and tow a camper.

I finally have a new set of gears, though each one from a different manufacturer. 1st-LML, 2nd-Piaggio, 3rd-CIF, 4th-SIP.

One thing I noticed when ordering is that some gears will be labeled as compatible with either P and EFL and others as EFL only.

I measured the middle section thickness and compared with the old gears from LML engine.

Then there is this SIP chart I found in my wanderings. Looks like the new gears are at last close the the old ones. Not sure about the SIP specs.

The EFL driveshaft has 2 shims. The ones I have are of different thicknesses. I'm wondering if they should be the same. There is a SIP video on dry fitting the driveshaft, but it seems to only deal with checking that the cruciform goes to the right place when shifting…in case the selector box needs to be shimmed.

So I guess my question is:

Am I good to go with these gears?

Thanks!

The net change from old stack to new is -0.22mm. That's...pretty small.

Do you have room in the overall stack tolerance to absorb an additional .22mm of play? If not, time to order a new gear spacer.

Otherwise, I'd say you're good-to-go.

Thank you. I haven't put together the drive shaft to check the end play since getting the new gears. Just wanted to make sure I had the correct gears. Since they are pretty close to the old gears, I assumed they were. My measurements were kinda quick and dirty too.

I was counting on having to buy some new spacers, so no big deal. My understanding is that the spacers should be similar in thickness to each other. I think overall, the gearbox is pretty forgiving in terms of tolerances ans long as the end play is right. After endplay, the only other check I can overthink of is working the selector box while spinning the engine by hand.