Modern Vespa

After zooming in it looks like the plastic oil deflector isn't all the way in. The tip needs to be cut for it to seat properly. Give that a check.

Thanks! I'll check.

I might actually have the wrong kickstart gear. Apparently there are 2 variations that are dimensionally very close.

This thread describes the way the gear seems to be behaving:

Kickstart slipping/jumping out

Why is the quadrant and cog so crap looking?? Can't you find OEM Piaggio parts in the US??

I try. But even when you order it specifically you sometimes end up with whatever.

Agree that the quadrant looks shit.

It seems that I have the correct kickstart cog. The 2 versions seem to differ by the size of the hole for the primary shaft: 20.5mm vs 21.8mm. The gears I have are all 20.5.

It's actually designed so that the quadrant cocks the gear at an angle when the kickstart returns to allow the primary to spin freely while riding. If it doesn't, you are in for a thrilling but short ride.

One of the reasons I have always been vaguely terrified of riding a Vespa fast. Some of these bits seem like they belong on a bicycle and they can really ruin your day if they break. It's not the speed, but the sudden, unexpected stop. If it's a gearbox thing, the clutch won't save you. It happened to me years ago.

The problem I'm having is that I'm hearing the ratcheting sound that the kickstart gear makes when the kickstart returns…except all the time when the primary spins in either direction.

I will check the position of the oil slinger and the surfaces of the quadrant that hold the gear away from the primary. As mentioned, the quadrant looks crappy. It has a heavy layer of parkerization on it and generally looks chunky with sharp edges and a lack of finishing. I have run across this with aftermarket VW camshafts, even good ones. At least an hour's worth of radiusing cam lobes and polishing thrust surfaces so the lifters and bearings don't get eaten. The quadrant is CIF, btw.

The quadrant doesn't look like the highest quality but should work. Might be sitting too far into the side casing. Take the spring off, put the cases together and see if it moves in and out too much.

Thanks. Do you mean the heavy return spring.

Ok, gotcha. You want me to check the movement of the quadrant with the return spring removed.

Kind of answering your own question here.
Stick that in your P200

SIP Performance brakes, front and rear.
Performance/Premium cables/outers. A must do at the front brake (less so for the rear), as cable stretch is big, in terms of braking effort.

You will not lack in stopping power.

10-4 on that. The 200 engine is boring.

But I'm still at a loss with the kickstart gear. Everything spins nicely without it. Tried another spring, gear, no return spring different return spring. It's not the oil deflector. No strange wear, alignment issues, machining glitches… Nothing I can eyeball. The kickstart gears seem a little loose on the primary, but they don't seem worn. Clearance primary to gear is like .04mm. The other gear size available is actually bigger…I think.

I'm out of ideas.

Ok, a couple more ideas.

Usually when I put the case halves together, I just shove the kickstart level on there and move it just enough to get the cases together. The one I had on hand is cracked, but it worked enough to move the quadrant. I took it off after getting the cases together.

I think the kickstart lever might have to be on and tightened to keep the quadrant from moving into the case and allowing the cog to contact the primary. The cog and primary teeth only need to make slight contact to make the whole thing sound like a gag of spanners. I never gave it much thought before and assumed that it was the return spring that kept the quadrant in place…but it wouldn't prevent it from moving in and out.

I'll give it a try. Beyond that the only other thing it could be is the primary isn't fully seated into the big half of the case.

If I'm reading this right, you are hypothesizing that you need to keep the kick lever bolted onto the quadrant to stop it from moving into the case? I dont think that should make a difference, as on all my race scooters, I take the kicker off and ride them without it, and I havent had an issue.

I always have the kickstart on while closing the cases...

What happened with the quadrant side movement with no return spring? If loose it's going to be the issue

There is about a 2mm between the case and the edge of the kickstart lever when the quadrant is pulled out as far as it will go. The kickstart is bolted on.

There isn't any fore aft movement of the q-shaft in the bore (like checking con rod looseness), which is what I think you were asking about.

So the push/pull thing.

If I pull the kickstart quadrant out as far as it will go and hold it there, the cush drive will spin freely with no interference with the ks cog. But it doesn't stay there unless I'm holding it.

So either the is quadrant shaft is too long or the case is machined incorrectly. I'm pretty sure the kickstart lever isn't supposed to hold the quadrant at the correct depth. I don't know what does.

Also checked if the cush drive was seated in the clutch side. As far as I can tell it's ok.

It's the push pull. With no return spring and the cases bolted together. The quadrant will move in and out. How loose is it? Should be a tiny amount.

Pretty loose. With no return spring I can push it into the case with very little effort. I thought that the kickstart lever needed to be in place to prevent it moving into the case, but as someone mentioned, it shouldn't matter. It's also not possible to adjust the lever that way.

I could try it with a vbb quadrant I have on hand. I think it only the lever splines that are different.

Catching up on reading…

Yeah. Thanks. It's become a real page turner lately, lol.

Just confirming: the issue is that it makes almost a bicycle free wheel noise when you spin the motor - as if u have accidentally stopped on the kick start when the scoot is running (ask me how I know…)?

If yes: what is the spring device that pushes the kick start toward the outside of the case?

If u flip the motor over to let gravity move the kick start gear away from the others, does the noise go away?


If no:

I'll try that. Here is a quick video:

?si=sx3IqJZJD69ku6cf

Have you tried the old 'twisted' quadrant to see if it does the same?? Are the cases bolted together when you are spinning the primary??

How much movement in and out? No spring, bolted together.

There are also a few different teeth counts, 12/10 12/12, 12/14

Is it possible the seller just grabbed the wrong cog and the teeth count is fubar and causing the issue? Long shot... but I have the ticket stubb and t-shirt from that show.

The case is bolted together, bolts snugged up, but not torqued.

Jack, I can push/pull the quadrant about 2mm with no spring. When I rotate the kickstart it doesn't move into and out. It stays all the way in.

The old quadrant is not only twisted but bent. It took some heat and hammering to get it out of the old case.

I have VBB quadrant I could try for comparison.

I could also try bolting/torquing the case halves using all the bolts.

I will check. It's possible. They are all used Stella gears, all the same.

Leave the return spring off. Fit the cluster gear, it's spring and kickstart. Bolt up the cases. Does it work? How far does the quadrant need to be pulled out until the pinion is free from the cluster?

I'd say it's about 2mm, but I will measure it as you described when I get home.

And btw, thanks everybody.

Ok. The kickstart quadrant shaft moves in about .7mm from the stop where it bottoms out to the the return stop where it pushes the starter gear away from the primary shaft.

The is quadrant can be pulled a further .3mm out (at the return position)

Fully pulled out, the gear still rattles a little against the primary shaft. With the case bolted, it's worse.

My money is on a poorly machined ks quadrant on the blocky bit that holds the starter gear down.

Looking at my VBB quadrant gave me a clue. Farmer Bodge had put an ugly blob of weld right at that point with his big-ass Lincoln welder. He probably figured it out a lot quicker than me.

At this point I'm outta my tits pissed off with this thing.

Still at it. Might be getting somewhere.

Looking at assembly photos from manuals, the kickstart quadrant might not be returning far enough for the wedge part of the gear engages the is gear to hold it out of the way. There might a little too much meat on it where it contacts the stop, so I could grind the end or make the buffer lower. I'll try it first by removing the kickstart buffer.

In the meantime, I'm going to order a Piaggio quadrant and hope it fits better.

Here's mine with the original quadrant...

Thanks. That seemed to help a little, but not definitive. It's does quiet do own when I pull the shaft fully out.

The ks quadrants are slightly different but no idea how this would affect the cog.

Maybe I could put a shim on the other end of the shaft to push it out further.

Pop off the buffer rubber. If it helps, show the quadrant some love from angle grinder to make the foot touching the rubber a bit shorter.

After taking a bunch of measurements of both quadrants, the only dimensional difference I can find is on the wedge shaped tooth that holds the cog in place. Maybe the big side of the Malossi case is drilled too deep, though no one else seems to have this problem .

It looks slightly wider (not thicker) on the LML version. The LML quadrant was in the scooter as it came to me. In spite of being twisted and bent, it worked fine. The kickstart lever hung a little low.

The new quadrant is from CIF and is well rated by SIP FWIW. My other thought was that maybe it was normal for the primary gear to rattle a little and I've been chasing ghosts.

At this point, I've ordered a Piaggio cog and quadrant from SIP via SM. If that doesn't fix it, I will use the quadrant as a bung for the gearbox and treat myself to electric start.

It's incredibly frustrating to struggle with fitment issues on new parts. If it was a bucket full of India eBay bargoons from LML's reject dumpster I wouldn't mind going all arts and crafts to make stuff work. But not this trip.

Anyone holding a spare LML or other spare quadrant they would be willing to sell?

Thank you.

I have an LML/Stella quadrant which I pulled out of my GL's motor that has a very slightly bent shaft. It might not be something you want to run with long term (or do--I only realized it might be bent because it was difficult to get into my new Malossi cases, but it might clarify your fitment issues.

I'm happy to send it your way if you'll PM me your address.

Thank you. Maybe what I'll try first is to grind down the shaft of the bent LML gear just so I can test fit it as it seems to have the same issue as the one you mentioned.

Original Piaggio - Tre Spade quadrant...

Thanks for that. I ordered one today as well as a cog. It's obviously got more meat in the area that holds the cog in place. I guess the moral of the story is to get an OEM part if one is available.

Your photo pretty much solves the mystery. I pursue things like this relentlessly and obsessively until I figure it out. So thanks for giving my mind one less chattering monkey to deal with.

Piaggio kickstart parts should arrive Friday for the engine that just doesn't want to get built.

Searching around, I saw one video where the builder had to chamfer the clutch side of a Malossi case to get the spindle to fit in order to close the cases.

Found a post on the small frames board where someone shimmed the kickstart spindle because the quadrant was too loose. The used a ring of solder that squished when the cases were bolted together, then swapped in a washer that was the same thickness as the squished solder.

In my short time working on Vespas, I haven't run across many fitment issues, which surprises me.

Being able to check that everything is right by feel is part of engine building that's not explained in books. Beyond what measurements tell you, it's the final reassurance that tells you you're good to go.