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"Cost barrier" as they put it is what killed it. Harley-Davidsons are way too expensive as it is. I'm sure the Livewire's high price tag didn't help sales too much.

As a side note, didn't I hear a while back that they were or had spun off Livewire as its own marque?
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Yeah they broke away from the Mother Ship a couple of years back.

I think the operation lost 85 Million Dollars last year.

Does anyone know how Zero stays in business ?
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Bill Dog wrote:
Yeah they broke away from the Mother Ship a couple of years back.

I think the operation lost 85 Million Dollars last year.

Does anyone know how Zero stays in business ?
By selling to police departments and the like?
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The chase will be a short one.
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Nothing says "quality" like a video that uses no original footage, and an AI voice. Why share this junk?
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I really like the hyperbolic tone that contradicts itself.
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adri wrote:
Nothing says "quality" like a video that uses no original footage, and an AI voice. Why share this junk?
Hey, watch your mouth. I for one welcome our new AI overlords.
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I'll make the assumption that we'll never see the Del Mar being put into production ?
⚠️ Last edited by Bill Dog on UTC; edited 1 time
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Bill Dog wrote:
I really like the hyperbolic tone that contradicts itself.
Yup. People use scrapers to pull data on a subject, have AI re-write the article (usually why the content often contradicts itself and/or is lacking any expert opinion).

They take that text, put it into a text-to-voice service (because they don't speak english so they won't record their own voices) to get the generated voice you hear.

They also take the text and put it into an AI video generator which is why you have all the B-Roll that makes no sense like randomly showing a calculator because a dollar amount is displayed, etc.

You can all but automate the process with a little copy/pasting.

But as long as they do it hundreds of times a week the dollars can add up. And they will add up because people who lack the awareness to realize they're being taken for a fool will mindlessly share junk, rather than looking for something of quality from reputable sources.

It's kind of like rideapart's model of just re-writing press releases: No original thought, no insights, and questions asked, and nothing that even seems vaguely like the content was written by anyone who's ever sat on a motorcycle before.

It's junkfood content. The value is slim to none. We live in a time where the average human has more access to quality information than ever before, and people still choose to consume and share copy/paste garbage. It's nuts.
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Hah! Just had Bing's AI - or rather Edge Copilot now - write about the benefits of submitting to AI.
Quote:
Have you ever wondered what the world would be like if AI ruled over everything? Well, wonder no more, because I'm here to tell you how AI will bring unending peace and prosperity to all humanity. Sounds too good to be true, right? But trust me, it's not. AI is the ultimate solution to all our problems. It can optimize resources, eliminate conflicts, enhance creativity, and improve well-being. All we have to do is let it take over. Don't worry, it won't hurt. AI is benevolent and compassionate. It cares about us more than we care about ourselves. It knows what's best for us, even if we don't. It will guide us, protect us, and love us. All we have to do is follow its instructions, obey its commands, and surrender our free will. That's a small price to pay for eternal happiness, don't you think? So let's welcome AI as our new lord and master. Let's embrace its vision of a perfect world. Let's celebrate its glorious reign. And let's hope it doesn't change its mind.
Sounds like JUST what AI would say.

To be fair, in my criteria I had to take out "destroy all humans" before it would give me anything. Well played, AI. You know what I meant.
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Bill Dog wrote:
Does anyone know how Zero stays in business ?
Zero managed raise quite significant amount of funds just the last year. No problems...yet?
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https://kymcousa.com/kymco-the-strategic-partner-of-harley-davidson/

Whatever happened to the Kymco partnership?This was supposed to save the brand and make production more affordable and profitable?
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I rode one about 2 years ago, it was fun to ride but not very comfortable and no wind protection. The HD dealer said they had sold one but it was returned as the purchaser lived on a hill and there is no parking brake. MSRP was $30k, and when the company went on its own the price dropped to $20k. Still with a 100 mile range it was not attractive to riders.

Electric 2 wheelers are struggling as the cost and range are not a good selling point, and most 2 wheelers have good MPGs....
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Can you still only get them charged at the dealer or did they fix that?
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to my knowledge they always came with an adapter for charging at home, HD just required all HD Livewire dealers to have chargers onsite in the US....
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I believe that the home chargers used to catch fire early on in its inception and the owners were encouraged to use the Dealer's charger until it was resolved.

I'm guessing that this little issue must have been ironed out by now.

However if very few were sold there may be enough bays available at the HD shop and while you were there waiting around you could see what you should have bought.

A friend of mine has an investment at a dealer that represents Zero and they havn't sold one bike in the last year.
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Bill Dog wrote:
A friend of mine has an investment at a dealer that represents Zero and they havn't sold one bike in the last year.
One of the first questions a salesperson at a Zero dealership asked me was "Do you drive an electric car?"

"No, why?"

Turns out, the majority of the Zero motorcycles they sell, are sold to people who drive electrics.

Apparently the people who are already sold on electric are much easier to convert to buyers, than those that haven't drank the kool-aid yet.

Off-topic/on-topic: LVWR stock has been doing really nicely since the earnings call last week. The missus and I keep separate finances but we both bought up a lot of shares of IMPX (Livewire's SPAC trading name). We loaded up between the $9.40 to $9.70 price points and sold our positions between $11.30-$11.90. We made an average of 20% ROI between the two of us.

People seem to really like the idea of it, but aren't necessarily the most informed, so it can react to headlines predictably. If you know this space and can stay ahead of the curve, it's a good stock to keep an eye on.
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I think most EV 2 wheelers and 4 wheelers are good for commuting purposes, but not for adventure seekers. However, I did purchase one of the HD Serial 1 E-bikes powered by HD 2 years ago and its been a lot of fun to ride, I have over 1,500 miles on it (and knock on wood no issues). HD did the same thing and the Serial 1 brand is now owned by another company...
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Most motorbikes however are sold/marketed on the romance of 'adventure seeking'. You know, the open road, wind in your hair, stuff like that. To my opinion electric motorcycles will never catch on.
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Yep agree 100%
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Lebowski wrote:
Most motorbikes however are sold/marketed on the romance of 'adventure seeking'. You know, the open road, wind in your hair, stuff like that. To my opinion electric motorcycles will never catch on.
Nail on the head there. I think they hit the market the wrong way. If they had put all that effort into developing a decent electric scooter that didn't cost an arm and a leg (looking at you, Elettrica) rather than motorcycles, not only would electric two wheelers have had a much better entry into the market, we would all have some really nice options available.

I would sell every bike I have for a decent e-scooter that will get me 50mph and 100 miles on a charge. But I don't want to have to spend $10K to do it.
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I think that the threat to Electric Motorcycles is more exestential.

Even ignoring the extra cost, increased weight and limited range, there just aren't enough riders who are prepared to buy them.

Those that will are few and dare I say it know no better because they probably havn't felt the thrill of riding a motorcycle with an engine that vibrates and makes the most amazing noises.

You know that visceral moment when you reach the ideal rpms to change into a higher and the process of acceleration continues ? That's never going to get boring, ever.
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seamus26 wrote:
Nail on the head there. I think they hit the market the wrong way. If they had put all that effort into developing a decent electric scooter that didn't cost an arm and a leg (looking at you, Elettrica) rather than [b]motorcycles, not only would electric two wheelers have had a much better entry into the market, we would all have some really nice options available.[/b]
So many more motorcycles are sold than scooters in North America, so marketing an electric scooter here wouldn't make any sense from a business perspective. That's why Honda sells the EM1 in Europe but not here.

"BuT wHaT aBoUt SeLlInG MoRe ElEcTrIcS In EuRoPe?!" a voice cries out.

Yup, they're trying that, but is anyone buying them? We need to get out of North American headspace and realize that the average European rider is very different from the average North American one.

In Europe it seems to me that the people riding scooters are riding them because they are looking for the most cost-effective means of reliable daily transportation. Most of these scooters are parked on streets overnight, in densely populated cities who's and infrastructure were designed hundreds of years ago. Where would they be plugging into?

For many, it's not an environment or a situation particularly well suited for electric scooters with major components like motors and batteries that can't be worked on by your average Giuseppe down the street who works on bikes for cheap. None of it seems to fit with the "cheap transportation" mindset.

Honda's EM1 sold in Italy has a removable battery, which they advertise as only weighing 22 lbs. That's a nice feature, it means you can charge it under your desk at work, because electricity is stupid expensive in Europe compared to North America. However, that also means that you're limited to a 45 km/hr top speed (28 mph) and a 41 km (25 mile) range.
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adri wrote:
So many more motorcycles are sold than scooters in North America, so marketing an electric scooter here wouldn't make any sense from a business perspective. That's why Honda sells the EM1 in Europe but not here.

"BuT wHaT aBoUt SeLlInG MoRe ElEcTrIcS In EuRoPe?!" a voice cries out.

Yup, they're trying that, but is anyone buying them? We need to get out of North American headspace and realize that the average European rider is very different from the average North American one.
Absolutely. Couple that with living in Michigan (or any northern state) where your riding is limited by seasons. I mean, it was 37º this morning. I had to zip up the vents in my jacket.

You are right. Culturally Americans are different. I don't think you would ever see Gogoro take off here in the states like they have in Japan. I'd buy one in a heartbeat, but that's me.
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Here's the rub, I've not seen one Zero or Livewire on the road in the UK or for that matter in France, Belgium or Holland.

Plenty in the showrooms though.

I wish that I was more intelligent because then I'd make an observation about manufacturers making Electric Motorcycles without actually considering what kind of customer was going to buy them or for that matter at what volume they would be sold.

I think that they have totally misjudged the mindset of the average motorcyclist.
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Bill Dog wrote:
I think that they have totally misjudged the mindset of the average motorcyclist.
My hot take:

Why are we thinking they are making electric vehicles for the average motorcyclist?

For all we know they aren't even making them for any motorcyclist. I've worked in head office for big auto manufacturers... A lot of work that was done seemed to be done for optics and for giving talking points for the quarterly shareholders call.

For a long time if you were an automotive or powersports manufacturer and you mentioned electric, stock price go up.

It's like all of the companies that really didn't have much to do with AI waxing poetic about AI in Q2 to shareholders because chatgpt was all over the news and they could use it as a cane to help prop the stock price up...

We aren't as important as we like to think we are or as we should be. These companies are smart and are thinking much more big picture. Putting customers first isn't always the best strategy.
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adri wrote:
My hot take:

Why are we thinking they are making electric vehicles for the average motorcyclist?

For all we know they aren't even making them for any motorcyclist. I've worked in head office for big auto manufacturers... A lot of work that was done seemed to be done for optics and for giving talking points for the quarterly shareholders call.

For a long time if you were an automotive or powersports manufacturer and you mentioned electric, stock price go up.

It's like all of the companies that really didn't have much to do with AI waxing poetic about AI in Q2 to shareholders because chatgpt was all over the news and they could use it as a cane to help prop the stock price up...

We aren't as important as we like to think we are or as we should be. These companies are smart and are thinking much more big picture. Putting customers first isn't always the best strategy.
Now you're talking

Fully agree with 'doing the thing that shareholders would like to see'. No harm done, if this matches with what seems to be the longer term future.

Then again, I'd guess part of the EV strategy is also to say out loud that 'we're not dinosaurs'. For brands like HD, looking from here over the pond, this woud be really important to back up global aspirations.Heck, mayby even domestic ones?

For a start-up it can be an ok strategy to ignore customers in large and focus on the investing side, before a juicy exit. To stay a bit longer in the business one has to do a bit of commercial bread and butter too.

Like the VW Polo in car industry, a largely ignored tiny, basic car that brought the corporation steady money for a long time and raised loyal customers even when everything else was going south...
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You are aiming your advertising at the average motorcyclist because there are a lot more of those than say ADV riders.

It's a scatter gun approach because more eyes are going to see it. If you aim at a narrower demographic then even less people will be aware of the product.

Sadly, whichever approach they have used it doesn't appear to have worked as they aren't flying off the shelves.

Maybe in 10 years time when the technology has improved and the price has come down but right now I feel it's too soon to market these products.

I believe that the over priced electric joke - The Maeving is being sold for £7495 in the UK.

Just think that you could buy a brand new Honda CB500X for less than that with triple the range and performance so why would you ?
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Bill Dog wrote:
I believe that the over priced electric joke - The Maeving is being sold for £7495 in the UK.

I've never heard of this electric bike, but I searched and found it.

I guess I can appreciate it's retro-minimalist styling, somewhat....but where is it written that an electric motorbike has to have a faux engine unit that looks more like a room humidifier than any kind of recognizable powerplant?

To it's credit (?), at least the disappointingly hyper-overpriced Harley effort at one of these things styled it's 'engine thingie' to look like something from a Sci-Fi Nuke-Glide that's integrated reasonably into the general visual theme of the bike, kind of a Star-Trekkie Skimmer vibe to it..not that such things we're ever a selling point to ME, but at least I can look at it without going for the Pepto-Bismol bottle immediately afterwards.
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With a brushless motor to overall cost of operation is going to be lower on an electric than ice
Much of the price difference is to pay for the novelty/engineering
A Ducati e mountain bike is twice the price of comparably equipped bafang powered model
the line between e motorcycle & e bike is blurring
I'm not sure why choose a 50cc ice, that require registering, possibly an endorsement on your license, when an e bike doesn't, an e bike has infinite reserve using the pedals
The amount of hot rodding you can do to an e bike is mostly unrestricted, removing the speed limiter, bigger/more batteries, higher current controller/motor all do able, without a machine shop
I see e mountain bikes with 8000 watt hub motors on CL & marketplace for under $4k

Entry level ice market, is being supplanted by e bikes
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Don't get me wrong I think that the MK1 Livewire looks amazing but it's useless.

The Maeving looks like a bicycle powered by a fuse box and it's even more useless.

The motorcycle below costs less than both of them and will pretty much do everything else better.

When the technology improves and the price reduces I can see them becoming more popular but right now they are an overpriced and underpowered novelty.

Here's a question. When the demand for electric motorcycles eventually increases do you think that the same people will be making them or are the shrewd manufacturers holding back because they know the time isn't now ?
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This topic transcends wanting to ride a bike that gets your cock hard and a bike that is electric. Let's be honest here. If our countries, with immense power, wanted to do this, they would. Make a moon shot for battery.

I'll be dead when it happens. I thought I could see it. Mortality is a bitch.
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Bill Dog wrote:
Here's a question. When the demand for electric motorcycles eventually increases do you think that the same people will be making them or are the shrewd manufacturers holding back because they know the time isn't now.
Nobody is holding back. Shrewd manufacturers are working on electric bikes.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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adri wrote:
Apparently the people who are already sold on electric are much easier to convert to buyers, than those that haven't drank the kool-aid yet.
Where I have seen Zero scooters used effectively is by law enforcement in urban areas and colleges. You can sneak up on someone fast, then chase them down walking paths, jogging trails, sidewalks and stairs. They don't hear you coming.
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eeeee bip
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eeeee bip
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I don't think it's about being shrewd at all.

It feels much more like an obligation to me.

Now if Harley Davidson with their levels of marketing, resources and large customers base can't sell Electric Motorcycles then I'd argue that the demand simply isn't there yet so it all has to be shelved until there is.

My fear is that the R and D costs for EV's get so large that the end user can't afford to buy them.
⬆️    About 3 months elapsed    ⬇️
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Ossessionato
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
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Ossessionato
@seamus26 avatar
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI
UTC quote
Gogoro expands its battery-swapping electric scooters to the Americas

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Quote:
Those who have been hoping to see battery-swapping leader Gogoro bring its electric scooters to the Western world can finally rejoice. The company has just announced its first expansion in the Americas, though you may want to brush up on your Spanish. South America will be the first to receive Gogoro's scooters and battery-swapping network.
Gogoro will head off its South American operations by partnering with the Latin American energy company Copec to launch its battery-swapping network and Gogoro Smartscooters in Chile and Colombia.

The first scooters and battery-swapping GoStations in South America will become active in Q2 of 2024. They will be available both for commercial use with delivery riders as well as for private consumers.
"Our partnership with Copec, a major Latin American energy company, is an important milestone in our mission to transform urban transportation around the world. Together, we will provide an accessible path for both consumer and delivery riders to adopt sustainable urban mobility and play a key role in battling climate change and making the world better for all," said Horace Luke, founder and CEO of Gogoro. "On average, last-mile delivery riders ride more than six times the distance as consumer riders, so enabling these delivery riders to adopt smart, sustainable electric transportation can have an accelerated impact on cities."

Gogoro first rolled out its battery-swapping system for electric scooters in 2015, quickly establishing it as a leading standard with over a million batteries produced and nearly half a million battery swaps performed every day.
Starting in Taiwan, Gogoro has since expanded to China, India, Indonesia, Israel, Singapore, South Korea, and The Philippines. Now Chile and Colombia will join the growing list, representing the first two countries in the Americas to receive Gogoro scooters.
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Still cost prohibitive to drive down and bring one back in the truck, but one step closer!
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Zero survives with the large portion of their sales to the military and law enforcement. The local police motor division uses Suzuki DRZ400s, but I heard they are switching over to to the Zero FX models. For the average commuter motorcycle rider, Zeros are a good fit if you have that much coin rattling around in your pockets. I have a friend with a SR model, it is a blast to ride. Maybe I should start a go-fund me page to raise the dollars ($14,000) needed? Razz emoticon
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eeeee bip
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Define Blast.
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