OP
@colinbelgium avatar
UTC

Hooked
VBA1T/Px200 iris
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Posts: 241
Location: Belgium
 
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@colinbelgium avatar
VBA1T/Px200 iris
Joined: UTC
Posts: 241
Location: Belgium
UTC quote
Hello,

Rusty has a misalign rear wheel, it is not centered into the chassis.

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

The wheel is perfectly straight, swing arm bushings are brand new (it was tilted before rebuilt !)

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

The drum does not go all the way onto the splines, there is around 8mm missing

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Is this normal ?

The engine has an inside oil seal and an outside bearing

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

The bearing is supposed to be flush to the circlip right ? The only way for the drum to be centered to the chassis would be for it to go further inside into the engine case, but it would not be possible there !

The brake drum is this one : made to fit internal oil seal

https://eu.rondaleyscooters.com/products/fa-italia-rear-hub?shpxid=866a1bf1-f117-4208-b903-c31a196ef19a

The engine is at the right place, the chassis is straight !!

I'm lost on that one !
@johanrsa avatar
UTC

Member
1981 P200e ,1988 PX200e and '04 ET4 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 21
Location: South Africa
 
Member
@johanrsa avatar
1981 P200e ,1988 PX200e and '04 ET4 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 21
Location: South Africa
UTC quote
Hallo Colin

Do not stress. I have two PX's and their rear wheels are slanted the same as yours.

I am pretty sure the wheel is angled sligbtly to offset the weight imbalance caused by the engine and gearbox that sits on the right hand side.
OP
@colinbelgium avatar
UTC

Hooked
VBA1T/Px200 iris
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Posts: 241
Location: Belgium
 
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@colinbelgium avatar
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UTC quote
Not sure about that ! I've seen some PX with the rear wheel perfectly centered !

To counter effect the imbalance due to the weight, the wheel should be further to the right, not to the left !
@johanrsa avatar
UTC

Member
1981 P200e ,1988 PX200e and '04 ET4 125
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Posts: 21
Location: South Africa
 
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@johanrsa avatar
1981 P200e ,1988 PX200e and '04 ET4 125
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Location: South Africa
UTC quote
Not the first or last time I assume wrongly.

Rear wheel alignment
OP
@colinbelgium avatar
UTC

Hooked
VBA1T/Px200 iris
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Posts: 241
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@colinbelgium avatar
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Location: Belgium
UTC quote
This relates to tilted wheel, which was also my case, but with new bushing my wheel is perfectly vertical, it is just not centered compared to the middle line of the chassis, and i can't figure out why ! Obviously something is wrong, but what ?
UTC

Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Posts: 1769
Location: Philadelphia
 
Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Location: Philadelphia
UTC quote
ColinBelgium wrote:
This relates to tilted wheel, which was also my case, but with new bushing my wheel is perfectly vertical, it is just not centered compared to the middle line of the chassis, and i can't figure out why ! Obviously something is wrong, but what ?
I had the same issue on a VNA. The frame was twisted pretty badly. Not saying that's your issue but I too thought it was the swing arm bushings, replaced those and it was the same.

Got a new frame off GeekLion here and that solved the issue.
OP
@colinbelgium avatar
UTC

Hooked
VBA1T/Px200 iris
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UTC quote
I took the paint off the frame, it was the original paint, some surface rust was there, but no sign of accident at all ! And all the parts were original. I really don't think the frame is bent
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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87 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
Joined: UTC
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87 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
ColinBelgium wrote:
The drum does not go all the way onto the splines, there is around 8mm missing
I think you've answered your own question. That looks to be the wrong axle, so the wheel is sitting too far over.

The wheel should be centered unless, like in FM's case, the frame is bent or the shock bushings are thrashed, which causes the tilt you already fixed.
@hec_in_omaha avatar
UTC

Hooked
1980 P125X US Spec
Joined: UTC
Posts: 393
Location: Beaver Lake, Nebraska USA
 
Hooked
@hec_in_omaha avatar
1980 P125X US Spec
Joined: UTC
Posts: 393
Location: Beaver Lake, Nebraska USA
UTC quote
ColinBelgium wrote:
Hello,

Rusty has a misalign rear wheel, it is not centered into the chassis.

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

The wheel is perfectly straight, swing arm bushings are brand new (it was tilted before rebuilt !)

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

The drum does not go all the way onto the splines, there is around 8mm missing

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Is this normal ?

The engine has an inside oil seal and an outside bearing

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

The bearing is supposed to be flush to the circlip right ? The only way for the drum to be centered to the chassis would be for it to go further inside into the engine case, but it would not be possible there !

The brake drum is this one : made to fit internal oil seal

https://eu.rondaleyscooters.com/products/fa-italia-rear-hub?shpxid=866a1bf1-f117-4208-b903-c31a196ef19a

The engine is at the right place, the chassis is straight !!

I'm lost on that one !
I think the installation order of your axle seal and bearing are reversed. The seal on my 80 P125X is on the outside. If your seal is on the inside this would limit the insertion length of the axle.

With that said, the drum, axle, bearing and seal have to work together. If the drum you have, replaced a drum that was designed for external seals, then all bets are off. I don't think you can just change the orientation of the seal from outside to inside. What's the advantage of the internal oil seal? Seems like it would be a P.I.A. to replace!

Hec
Seal on the outside on my 80 P125X
Seal on the outside on my 80 P125X
⚠️ Last edited by Hec In Omaha on UTC; edited 3 times
@greasy125 avatar
UTC

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
@greasy125 avatar
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
UTC quote
just to play devil's advocate here: you don't have the wheel on backward, do you?


(I know, I know, I'm just checking!)
UTC

Addicted
Joined: UTC
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Location: Planet Earth
 
Addicted
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UTC quote
ColinBelgium wrote:
This relates to tilted wheel, which was also my case, but with new bushing my wheel is perfectly vertical, it is just not centered compared to the middle line of the chassis, and i can't figure out why ! Obviously something is wrong, but what ?
'Tilted Wheel', thats a great name for a band.
@christopher_55934 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
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Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
@christopher_55934 avatar
2007 Stella 225
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Location: Rochester, Minnesota
UTC quote
As a reference look at the distance between, tire and rear brake arm that rear brake cable is mounted into in both pictures. Something didn't get put back together correctly or is wrong part. You can see the difference in those two pictures.

If you mounted a wide wheel setup on there it woukd,be about right.
OP
@colinbelgium avatar
UTC

Hooked
VBA1T/Px200 iris
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@colinbelgium avatar
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Location: Belgium
UTC quote
greasy125 wrote:
just to play devil's advocate here: you don't have the wheel on backward, do you?


(I know, I know, I'm just checking!)
Facepalm emoticon
If backward the wheel would be further more to the left side !
@safis avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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Location: Veria, Greece
 
Ossessionato
@safis avatar
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4076
Location: Veria, Greece
UTC quote
I say something is off with your bushings or frame. Hub looks OK, all hubs can work on the internal seal axle. The gap you get in the splines looks normal. If the splines reached the end then the washer wouldn't do its job, tightening the hub to the bearing's inner race…

Did you center the bushings when you installed them?? Also, if it's possible flip over the scooter and take some measurements to see if the engine cases are centered in the frame…
OP
@colinbelgium avatar
UTC

Hooked
VBA1T/Px200 iris
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UTC quote
Hec In Omaha wrote:
I think the installation order of your axle seal and bearing are reversed. The seal on my 80 P125X is on the outside. If your seal is on the inside this would limit the insertion length of the axle.
Hec
My engine, Motovespa Px200 iris should be similar to the Px200 arcobaleno, the seal goes inside the case, you can't flip them for 2 reasons, the bearing would not fit inside (too big) and the seal would be way to smal outside. The arco engine has been designed like this, there is even a small hole under the casing in case of oil going through the seal, it is evacuated to the floor and not to the wheel axle and the brakes !
@ray8 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
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Location: Los Angeles
 
Molto Verboso
@ray8 avatar
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UTC quote
ColinBelgium wrote:
My engine, Motovespa Px200 iris should be similar to the Px200 arcobaleno, the seal goes inside the case, you can't flip them for 2 reasons, the bearing would not fit inside (too big) and the seal would be way to smal outside. The arco engine has been designed like this, there is even a small hole under the casing in case of oil going through the seal, it is evacuated to the floor and not to the wheel axle and the brakes !
It's pretty common to replace the inside seal with the outside version and plug the weep hole, as that inside seal was done for legal vs practical reasons.

Did you replace the swingarm bushings?
If not, maybe you could get a friend to sit on it (center stand up) and shake it side to side.
Wheel looks tilted.
OP
@colinbelgium avatar
UTC

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VBA1T/Px200 iris
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UTC quote
SaFiS wrote:
I say something is off with your bushings or frame. Hub looks OK, all hubs can work on the internal seal axle. The gap you get in the splines looks normal. If the splines reached the end then the washer wouldn't do its job, tightening the hub to the bearing's inner race…
True
SaFiS wrote:
Did you center the bushings when you installed them?? Also, if it's possible flip over the scooter and take some measurements to see if the engine cases are centered in the frame…
Yes I did + you can't really mount them not centered as there is a stop washer into to swing arm on both sides.

I took some measurements with a laser, the wheel is perfectly in line from front to back compared to center chassis line

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

I scraped the original paint and apart from surface rust, everything is fine, no damage to the chassis, I mean nothing visible...

Maybe the swing arm left and right tolerances are off from factory ? Spanish Vespa, could be... I could cut at the right side a 1cm piece and stick it to the left side ! I have a massive band saw, I really could do that

The drum comes flush to the plate, seems normal ?

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

The gap in between the tire and the clutch cover is around 15mm, sounds good to you ?

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
OP
@colinbelgium avatar
UTC

Hooked
VBA1T/Px200 iris
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Posts: 241
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@colinbelgium avatar
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UTC quote
Ray8 wrote:
It's pretty common to replace the inside seal with the outside version and plug the weep hole, as that inside seal was done for legal vs practical reasons.

Did you replace the swingarm bushings?
If not, maybe you could get a friend to sit on it (center stand up) and shake it side to side.
Wheel looks tilted.
Swingarm bushings are new. The second picture is the scoot when I got it, the first one is now ! On the first one it could look a hair tilted but that comes from the lens distortion. On the second picture it is crazy tilt, that was before I replaced the bushings
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4355
Location: London UK
UTC quote
ColinBelgium wrote:
The drum comes flush to the plate, seems normal ?
Perfect gap. Issue is not the engine itself.

Not all engine mount bushings fit correctly, any picture of those installed?
OP
@colinbelgium avatar
UTC

Hooked
VBA1T/Px200 iris
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Posts: 241
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UTC quote
Jack221 wrote:
Perfect gap. Issue is not the engine itself.

Not all engine mount bushings fit correctly, any picture of those installed?
You mean into the frame ? I'll do some pictures this week end (my shop is not at my home)
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
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Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4355
Location: London UK
UTC quote
ColinBelgium wrote:
You mean into the frame ? I'll do some pictures this week end (my shop is not at my home)
Into the engine
OP
@colinbelgium avatar
UTC

Hooked
VBA1T/Px200 iris
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Posts: 241
Location: Belgium
 
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@colinbelgium avatar
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Location: Belgium
UTC quote
I don't have pics before engine into the frame. Could they be wrong ? I took some I had here from a mistaken order before. They were sold to fit PX engines. Maybe there are different ones ? Are they supposed to be different size/length from right or left ?
@safis avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4076
Location: Veria, Greece
 
Ossessionato
@safis avatar
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4076
Location: Veria, Greece
UTC quote
T5 bushings are different, BGM does them…
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4355
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181 Quattrini and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4355
Location: London UK
UTC quote
ColinBelgium wrote:
I don't have pics before engine into the frame. Could they be wrong ? I took some I had here from a mistaken order before. They were sold to fit PX engines. Maybe there are different ones ? Are they supposed to be different size/length from right or left ?
There are washers in before the mounts. Mounts vary in size, as do cases and washers. All have to fit together for the engine to be symmetrical. And stay symmetrical.
OP
@colinbelgium avatar
UTC

Hooked
VBA1T/Px200 iris
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Posts: 241
Location: Belgium
 
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@colinbelgium avatar
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Location: Belgium
UTC quote
I'll take pictures of the engine into the frame on each side of the swingarm to see if it centered
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