Modern Vespa

As I've mentioned here and there in various threads, I am currently in Porto, Portugal for a month (my wife and I are actually about halfway through that now).

We've made several trips to Portugal over the years, each time coming a little bit closer to approximating what it would be like to actually live here, rather than just being here as tourists. We're now at the tail-end of the very long (and complicated) process to obtain long-term residency visas, currently waiting on some final details. We have leased a flat in the center of modern Porto for a two-year period, and we are currently sharing it with another MVer who lives here full-time. This means we are actually cooking meals at home fairly regularly, going shopping regularly, doing small-scale DIY projects on the flat, doing laundry, and so on.

Our intent is to live here permanently sometime in the near future. I'm retired now, and no longer need to be near Silicon Valley as I was for so many years. We still own our home in California, of course, but are expecting eventually to pull up stakes there altogether. We don't have a specific timetable for this yet, however.

I feel like I know a few things about Portugal, but far less than someone who has lived here for any real amount of time. Nevertheless, for anyone who is following along, feel free to ask me anything. I'll try to answer everything, even the question from out of left field that I am sure znomit is going to ask.

you can save yourself a bunch in taxes the sooner you vacate CA all together. Hell pick a state that is beneficial tax wise and rent a storage unit there or buy a half acre of land and call it residency.

When's the yard sale, Jess?

Several questions but not necessarily Portugal-specific:

- What advice would you have for a couple in their mid 30s now, hoping to do a similar retirement exit?

- What were the key considerations you were looking for when planning your move to another country, and how does Portugal score in these areas?

- What other countries you were considering?

- Any lessons on expectations vs reality that we might benefit from hearing? (could be about retiring abroad, about Portugal specifically, whatever might be good to know/consider)

Are you at all attached to the actual physical nature of either the place you were raised or your adopted home of many years? I've done my share of traveling and like anyone I've been places that you can't help but fall in love with, but there are certain places in California, up in the high mountains, down on the coast and other places too, certain qualities of light and kinds of days and smells and sounds coming right out of the dirt and so forth that I'm hopelessly attached to and if I don't check in on them regularly, I really, really miss them. I'd be afraid that I would get all settled in somewhere perfect only to dream of being up at Sky Blue Lake or at a gas station in the Owens Valley or something. I'm not saying my home range is the best or anything, just that I'm afraid of how I would feel if I couldn't easily access it. Has this kind of thing ever come up for you?

Will you get yourself a scooter?

There is a perception from those outside of California that California is some kind of high-tax hellhole that people are fleeing in droves. This is, however, largely a narrative invented by the media. The reality for most people within California is a lot more nuanced. If we were not contemplating a move abroad, we would stay put where we are in California — we own our home outright, we are in a good neighborhood, we like our neighbors, we have plentiful amenities (though they largely require a car to access) and the weather is good.

Also, as we are living off our savings, we currently have almost no income at all, so income tax is a non-issue at the moment. That won't always be the case, of course, but it lessens the urgency of leaving California.

The larger issue for us, though, is that because of the cost of housing in California, once we leave, we won't be able to afford to come back. If, for some reason (and there are a LOT of potential reasons) the Portugal thing doesn't work out, we very much want to return to our lives in California. It is, for us, the least awful place in the USA to live, even when you figure in taxes.

That's a good question. We've already begun slimming down our large pile of possessions. Like most Americans, we just have too much stuff, and we would really like to have less of it — even if we don't move to Portugal.

We've given many, many boxes of accumulated books to the local libraries, which either keep them for their collection or (more commonly) sell them at book fairs to raise funds. I've thinned out my old clothes, getting rid of stuff that doesn't fit me anymore or that I am not going to wear, recycling some shoddy items and taking the rest to Good Will. I've identified new homes for some of the larger possessions, once we are closer to closing things down.

One thing that is still on my plate to deal with are all the various scooters I have, which I largely haven't ridden in years. Many of them have UV damage from living outside, and are not what you would call pristine. Honestly, I would feel bad taking them all to the scrap yard, but only for about half an hour. Then I would feel elated. Hopefully it won't actually come to that, though.

Probably the hardest thing will be the contents of my workshop. I have a very, very well stocked workshop at this point, with an assemblage of tools that I will not ever see again in my lifetime once they are gone. That's going to hurt. A lot. I'm not even sure yet what I'm going to do with the contents.

how much Portuguese have you learned, more or less than the Klingon that you currently know?

These are excellent questions. Leverage compound interest at every opportunity. If you're not already, consider embracing some variation of the FIRE philosophy. FIRE didn't exist (or was still unknown) when I started working at Apple. Maybe the only good decision that I made in my 20s, though, was to start contributing to Apple's 401k program as soon as I started working there. For me, that was the key to most of this retirement plan, put into motion long before I could even conceive of retirement.

Of course, it doesn't have to be a 401k, and you don't have to be in your 20s. But you do need time to make compound interest work its magic, and you need to be okay with risk in the early phases. And maybe the middle phases. And maybe the later phases, too. I've never been a gambler, and so I've never been interested in ultra-high-risk investments where losing it all was a possibility. But I did have some faith that the overall trajectory of the market — and specifically the S&P 500 — was upwards. Along the way, I got hit by the dot-com bust in 2000, and then again by the real estate / banking collapse in 2008, but I had a lot of really, really good years after 2008. Staying the course paid off.

(Past results are not a guarantee of future performance, etc etc) At first, we were looking for a way to experience some aspect of the "European lifestyle", whatever that means. I think many Americans (and maybe Canadians too?) have a possibly over-romanticized version of what that might look like, based on TV and movies and even some print media (I'm looking at you, Under The Tuscan Sun). And while we knew those depictions weren't really the reality of it, we wanted to know what the reality actually was, and we wanted to immerse ourselves in a different culture. We wanted to enjoy the small discoveries of cultural nuance, like understanding local idioms or the subtlety of language beyond the basics.

We also wanted to be based in a location that would have easier access to the rest of Europe, to make traveling (especially as we get older) a little easier. California is a really long plane ride from Europe, and quite expensive, too.

We selected Portugal before we had ever visited here because of their visa program. On paper, it was the most straightforward process, and included a path to citizenship after establishing residency for 5 years. We hadn't originally been looking for citizenship, but as we considered options, that became a major factor. I've wanted to live in Italy since the first time I visited. I still do, maybe. But the process of getting long-term residency in Italy seemed quite a bit more complicated, made worse by the very uneven nature of everything in Italy — so much depends on which bureaucrat you happen to be talking to. If either my wife or I had even a single Italian ancestor, it would be quite a bit easier. But we don't. So Italy was never seriously on the table for us.

Spain has visa programs similar to Portugal, but notably does not allow dual citizenship (except from former Spanish colonies, and no, California is not on the list). This took Spain off the table for us — we are not going to renounce our US citizenship.

Greece has some visa programs that seemed attractive, but neither my wife or I were enthusiastic about moving to Greece. It's a lovely place, it just wasn't quite what we were after.

Portugal also had some economic advantages, as when we started this process, it was still quite affordable. That has been rapidly changing over the last 5 years, though. It's still affordable (especially compared to elsewhere in Europe) but it's no longer, errr, cheap. - It's going to be harder than you think.

- Dealing with the bureaucracy of another country is maddening.

- Dealing with the bureaucracy of your own country to obtain the documents you need for another country might also be maddening.

- Southern Europeans, in general, line-dry their laundry. American-style tumble dryers are unheard of, and European-style "condensing" dryers are available but not common. At least, that's my impression.

- When it's raining, you dry your clothes inside. Except they don't actually get dry, just less damp.

- You won't find [_fill_in_favorite_product_name_here_] at the grocery store, but you'll probably be able to find something like it. You'll just have to read the fine print on the package to figure out if it's what you think it is.

- You will discover new favorite products that you can't get back home and will feel like you can't live without.

- Kitchens are smaller. So are refrigerators. Counter space is laughable. (This is changing, though — "American Kitchen" is a real estate term found in listings for higher-end new builds in Portugal, I kid you not).

- You will walk much more than you are probably used to. (This was actually one of the positive aspects my wife and I were looking for).

- In Portugal, because we walk so much more, topography is something you have to think about all the time, every day. Hills are involved, and so you might plan your trip walking in one direction and taking mass transit in the other.

- Portugal has a very, very low accessibility score. Porto would be a prison for someone with a serious disability. There are zero ramps, zero curb-cutouts, and steps everywhere. Sidewalks are quite slippery in the rain, curbs are highly irregular, everything is made of stone, and much of it has fallen out of alignment. Sturdy hiking boots are a must just to navigate the city.

- For Portugal, at least, the people have been welcoming and lovely, even with our (so-far) limited language skills. English is spoken widely in the touristic areas of Portugal, and even beyond. But once you start going into local cafes with local people — especially older people — English suddenly becomes almost nonexistent. And still, the people are great to deal with.

- Smoking is more common here in Portugal than it is in California. I can't speak to the rest of Europe, or even the rest of the US, let alone Canada.

I have fond memories of the small town where I grew up in Ohio, but since my father died and my mother moved away, there isn't much left there tying me to that place. That's not entirely true, I have a step-mom and two half-brothers still living there, but I feel like my connection to that town is rapidly fading. Plus, I haven't lived there in over 40 years, so… yeah.

I will undoubtedly miss much about California, too. But rather than miss those ephemeral aspects of living somewhere you love, I am hoping to expand them, to discover new things in a new place that are equally as compelling. Porto is an amazing city in many respects, and Portugal is geographically not entirely unlike California — both on the Western edge of a continent, with mountains and valleys and farms and beaches.

On top of that, we have the whole of Europe to discover, and I am confident that there are new sights, sounds, and smells to discover that we will cherish forever.

That's always been on the list, yes. A scooter would make a lot of sense in a city like this. And exploring Europe by scooter has always been a major part of this dream.

That said, I haven't been riding at home for a number of years, and I am currently recovering from a back injury that may or may not inhibit my ability to ride, especially in an upright position.

I think it's likely, though. I'm currently in physical therapy for my back, so we'll see how it feels in the coming year.

I know more Portuguese than Klingon, for sure. That said, progress has been slow. My wife has made more progress than I have. Language has never been an easy thing for me to learn, for lots of reasons that I won't go into here.

I'll get there eventually. And there is a language test as part of the citizenship process, so… yeah. Got to do it.

When you become residents, will you have access to free healthcare - or do you have to have medical insurance?

Do you have to have full medicals as part of the move?

Would you become Portugal residents, or full EU residents? (giving you the ability to visit / live / work in Italy, or another EU country if you fancied a change).

Yes, and also yes. As I understand it, as soon as we are residents, we have access to the national health care system. However, given the temporary nature of that residency, we also are obliged to carry private health insurance. The cost is not onerous, however — at least, compared to US health insurance premiums. Presumably yes, but I don't know the exact details. We are still carrying US health insurance at the moment, so this is largely academic at this point. The visa we are currently in the process of getting is for Portugal specifically. Schengen rules still apply outside of Portugal. In the event that we become citizens of Portugal, however, we would be full EU citizens, able to live (and work) anywhere in the EU. This option appeals to us quite a bit, though we really do like Portugal and are likely to remain here.

As mentioned earlier, we are also not renouncing our US citizenship. Even if we wanted to (and we don't) we would be subject to an exit tax on our as-yet-untaxed assets, and that would be substantial.

Learning another language is extra difficult when you have subpar hearing

Yes, I hadn't considered this. Mine isn't so impaired that I can't understand people, unless I'm in a very noisy environment. But generally, it's just an annoying ringing all the time.

But for people with more profound hearing loss, I can imagine it's a huge obstacle.

So, do you like sardines?

I do! And the Portuguese don't just eat tinned sardines, either, though those are quite good. But fried sardines are a thing I've seen (and eaten) numerous times.

That said, the Portuguese staple fish is undoubtedly bacalhau, which is dried salted North Atlantic cod. They turn that humble dried sheet of fish jerky into a variety of very delectable dishes — supposedly 365 different recipes, one for every day of the year.

Is the climate in Porto similar to the Bay Area?

Do you have to pass a language test for Portuguese citizenship?

That's hard to answer, because the Bay Area is notorious for its micro-climates. There isn't a single Bay Area climate that I could compare it to.

That said, the daily average temperature through the year is roughly on par with the Bay Area. There's more rain in Porto (which is a good thing, considering how dry it is in the Bay Area of late) but less fog than San Francisco and more fog than Silicon Valley.

It was thick and foggy when I woke up this morning, but it burned off by 11am or thereabouts. It was sunny and crisp the rest of the day. Yes, though if you take (and pass) a government-approved language class, you get to skip the official test.

I've been good with tinned sardines.....was rather surprised to see an actual sardine-themed store in Lisbon (and IIRC the airport has something similar).

I'm pretty familiar with the (Spanish) bacalao that my wife makes at Christmas to honor her abuela, and I have to admit, I'm a fan. The few times I had the Portuguese version was a bit of a step down, but not entirely disappointing. Let's just say I'm happy to see it on a menu...

One word: "Sandeman."

Do these photos answer your question?

What is your favorite place for Pastéis de Nata (so far)?

In Porto, my favorite are probably the ones at Padaria Royale. That said, pastéis de nata are more of a Lisbon thing than a Porto thing, and the best ones in Lisbon are undoubtedly, hands down and without question found at Pastéis de Belem.

I'd be delighted if you could give us an update from time to time when you've tried it out some more... 😉

Good reason to not live in Lisbon. I think I gained several pounds due to them alone. I doubt it was the sardines, lol.

Obrigado Jess; muito obrigado.

Will do!

Thanks Jess. Makes sense!

I am also looking for a place to buy in Portugal, in the Algarve region. In your opinion, what will the end of the golden visa and NHR do for the real estate prices ? Reading the articles on the real estate websites nothing will change. But the amount of available houses is increasing and I keep getting 'now in price reduced' announcements. Plus, in the end it is the buyers who decide the price of a property, not the seller and not the real estate agent.

Regarding your tools, have you thought about just mailing them from California to Portugal?

Nothing. And the reasons are just basic math. There have only been ~12,000 ARI ("Golden Visa") recipients (counting main applicants, and not family members) in over a decade of the program's existence. This is not enough volume to materially affect the housing market in any but the most superficial ways.

At best, it might have tempted real estate agents to list some €400,000 properties at €500,000 in the hopes of attracting a certain narrow slice of buyers — and some of those buyers might have even overpaid for the privilege. But there just weren't enough of them for this to have made much of a dent in the overall real estate market. Most of those inflated listings were almost certainly sold well below the €500,000 threshold.

Additionally, the rules changed on January 1st, 2023 to exclude properties in the Algarve, Lisbon, Porto, and much of the coast of Portugal from being eligible for ARI investment. Thus, if the market had previously been affected, one would expect that we would have seen real estate prices come down already. But they haven't.

The reason they haven't is obvious to anyone paying attention to what is happening in Portugal. The number of D7 visa recipients is easily an order of magnitude more than the number of ARI visa recipients, and all of those people have to live somewhere. Apparently most of them seem to want to live in Lisbon or the Algarve.

And just to put the final nail in the coffin of the ARI / Real Estate property myth, the Portuguese themselves have taken a huge amount of properties off the market, cashing in on the Alojamento Local craze of turning everything possible into an AirBnB listing. This has led to a dire shortage of rental properties for other Portuguese people, making the housing shortage all the worse.

It's much less clear to me if the end of the NHR will have an impact, and if so what. It might deter some EU citizens from moving to Portugal for a tax break, but I would be surprised if this actually led to a reduction in real estate prices. It will have little affect on US citizens moving to Portugal, since the US will continue to tax US citizens even while they are living abroad.

I'm doing a 10 day bike tour of Portugal next summer, I know a few words of Spanish from my trips there but I've never been to Portugal before.

How much do the two languages differ?

More than you would expect. Speaking Spanish to the Portuguese is ill-advised. You would be much better off just relying on English in most places in Portugal.

That said, definitely make the effort to learn the basic pleasantries in Portuguese. It will go a long way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Portuguese_and_Spanish

I speak Spanish fairly well and having lived there for a couple of years. I can understand very little spoken Portuguese but understand almost everything when I read it. The pronunciation is so different to Spanish.

That's my impression as well. On paper, I can muddle through it, despite having only weak Spanish (and Italian) skills. But the spoken form is really difficult.

But really, the biggest reason not to speak Spanish to the Portuguese has little to do with how similar (or not) the languages are. The real reason is that the Portuguese and Spanish have been geopolitical rivals for a very, very long time. I'm not entirely sure if there are still simmering resentments or not, but that's the impression that I get.

Tread carefully.

bit like the British & French then

thus endeth my geopolitical observation!

Jess,

Wow, potentially packing up and moving permanently to Portugal is amazing. There is something unique going on here. From my prior posts, I lived in Italy for four years and loved it. But, I was young and had the desire for new experiences and adventure. At my age, all I want to do is sit in the backyard looking out into the forest sipping on a brandy and enjoying a good cigar at night. Also, reduced physicality puts a damper on venturing far a field. This doesn't bother me because - it is like I have been there and done that.

So, what flipped the switch to start this adventure later in life?

Bob Copeland