Modern Vespa

Today The Guardian started a series on EV car myths:

"Do electric cars pose a greater fire risk than petrol or diesel vehicles?
The first in a series exploring the myths and realities surrounding EVs"

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles

The Guardian… so you know it's going to be pro EV anti ICE. If there is one extremely biased and partial newspaper it's the Guardian.

At least it's owned by a trust, not by a media mogul like Murdock. Yes, it's left of centre overall, but it does check its facts, unlike some others.

That doesn't change the EV vs ICE data however.

Despite the increasing wealth of independent data some numpties will insist that flammable fossil fuel powered vehicles are somehow less flammable than vehicles without this design weak spot!
This ignorance extends to incorrectly pointing the initial finger of blame after the Luton fire.

my company echo mobility is building battery packs,pdus,hv harnesses and bms .
More or less i have some insights, electric vehicles in current forms are dangerous.

We are living in a wild wild west era of electric vehicles and components related.

The gorverment all over the world does not put on regulations yet they are just letting the tech to develop.

You the consumers are the victims, if i were you i will stick with my gas powered vehicles and when everything regulated make my move.
Now youare also paying the R6D costs of the compinies.

I'm sure to some people with a very narrow world view that's true, but that's largely because what The Guardian says conflicts with their closely-held convictions — convictions that are largely bullshit.

On the topic of climate change, I just don't have patience for people who continue to insist against all the available evidence that it's not happening. Doing so is a waste of time, and could be better spent actually working toward solutions. Who cares if the narrow-minded don't agree? We'll just go around them.

P.s. I expect you won't last very long here, Mr Seven Posts.

I think a petrol car, gasoline, is not a good idea with respect to fire risk.
Much safer is a diesel car.

On EV's I think the risk is low, unless you accidently heavily damage the battery.
But if one goes on fire it is very difficult to stop the fire. The reason is that these batteries contain both fuel and oxygen.

The article says: "Some fire departments have experimented with complete immersion of electric cars in water tanks."

Some fire departments? No, that is the general approach here in BE.
If there is an EV on fire the fire brigade brings a container full of water and drops the car into it until it has cooled down and will not reignite.

What an interesting subject.

Indeed, as a subscriber to the Guardian and someone who has had a post deleted recently, I will keep my thoughts to myself except to say I read the article with interest yesterday.

I'm not a fan of the Guardian but the story linked here is confirmed by data from insurance companies in the US.

I had to look this up in the moderation log — your post had strayed into specifically political territory, going so far as to identify a party.

Not a huge deal, but that tends to escalate quickly.

Forget any climate or political discussion. It just seems common sense that gas vehicles would burn more often because gas is highly combustible.

I am an insurance agent. Manufactures have build vehicles to not burn even in accidents. Of course, they can still catch on fire because of the fuel source. When I was first in the industry, I was in the claim department settling Total Auto thefts and Total losses from fire. In 80% of the losses by fire, it was arson. In most cases the insured either had a lemon (Mechanically) or they were in a financial crisis. They dumped a bucket of gas in the car and started it on fire. The local Fire Marshal could tell the cause - it was not the car.

The guardian maybe left leaning, but it is okay with me. I simply haven't bought an EV vehicle because they are to expensive. I expect this will be solved over time. Right now, the charging station availability and limited cruising distance keeps me out of the EV market. The future may fix this.

Bob Copeland

Indeed as you say car manufacturers build vehicles to not burn even in accidents.

I wonder what is your experience. I think most car fires in conventional gasoline or diesel cars do not originate from their fuel but are related to electric issues, short circuits, things like that. And I mean the genuine car fires, not the arson.

I read several messages here on the Guardian as being a prejudiced newspaper or similar.

In fact I find the Guardian to be an example for other newspapers or newssites in general. All their articles are open for everyone. No paywall or anything (OK, they ask you if you are willing to contribute, but it is their right to do so, and if you do not want to then you don't, and that has no consequences)

Specifically on this article I think it is really OK, it is interesting, informative, objective and all sources are clearly identified.

Surprised to see the Guardian pick this up. I would have thought this would be prime for a Cunk on EV series.

Petrol or EV, when the energy to push a car for 300 miles is released all at once due to an accident, there will be a fire.

And yet the statistics show that EVs are less likely to catch fire than ICE cars, which you would know if you had actually read the Guardian article. Or really, almost any other article on the subject, from almost any source.

I would like to gently suggest that you reconsider your closely-held beliefs, instead of just labeling anything that disagrees with them as "biased".

OK, but take into account what Bob experienced in his professional carreer.

He stated that: "80% of the losses by fire, it was arson"

I do not think that many people driving a 50 - 60 - 100 k$ EV car will light it to fire deliberately.

Well, there was this guy...

https://electrek.co/2021/08/30/tesla-found-frozen-lake-solved/

There have been a number of studies on the frequency of EV car fires versus gasoline and diesel car fires. As the Guardian article observes, they all come to somewhat similar conclusions - vehicles using combustible liquid fuel are more likely to catch fire than electric vehicles. That is not really very surprising - and it has little to do with whether you personally like the Guardian or not, or whether you like EV's or not.

My comment is not about the article or statistics, just stating a fact.

I actually have quite a lot of knowledge about EV's. I have build motors from scratch, all motor control electronics (by my own design, including programming) and a few ebikes. People have used my stuff to run homemade EV cars, upto a few 100 hp.

Interesting - using LFP or NMC cells? Noting that LFP are pretty much self-extinguishing.

I don't have a clue what he's talking about.

I think it's less of a problem with EVs and more of a problem with the "move fast and break things" that seems increasingly pervasive in corporate culture.

The modern purchasing public seems more tolerant of being beta-testers if they get the shiny new thing before others, to experience it first and then utilize it for peacocking. Companies realize that and turn out beta-grade products with the promise of shinier, better experience in upcoming releases.

Personally, is seems like a perversion of Pirsig's MoQ.

In in interesting parallel, people are so hurried to get their viewpoint in front of an audience that they forego the traditions of grammar and punctuation. That can be fixed in a future release, or simply supplanted with a newer post.

Dersan's Turkish PC or phone may not have good English spell-check etc.

What he says is often correct - Tesla is a good example of sending EV cars out with experimental, and not de-bugged software. A literal Wild West in that particular case...

I'm a firefighter and have been to dozens of car fires. As stated by Bob Copeland, the vast majority are arson. The cause of non arson fires in conventional vehicles is usually an electrical fault and occasionally a fuel leak onto something hot. Cars very rarely catch fire after an accident but it does happen occasionally. What burns most ferociously in a car fire is the plastics and foams in the cabin. I've yet to attend an EV fire. Australia is yet to fully embrace EVs so there are relatively few around. Our procedure is to "apply copious amounts of water" as the batteries self reignite. EVs rarely pose the same danger as electric bicycles, scooters, etc which regularly catch fire whilst on charge.

I think we are confusing here the combustability of the vehicle, with the prime cause of said combustion.
With EV's it is the hign current circiuts available to start a fire not what burns after the fire has started.

Move fast and run over people?

Try to break through barriers too.

If I remember correctly they used old batteries from Nissan Leafs or hobby grade LiPo. Especially this last option was cheap and powerfull, but dangerous.I also ran LiPo on my bicycle. I had a bicycle with a homemade motor and was running between 80 and 120 V, at 50 Amps. It had some getup and go But after 11000km my battery was worn out. I had a Honda Wave 110 at the time and calculated that the gas costs of that scooter were lower than the battery costs of the ebike. So that was the end of that.

Definitely.

Loves me some Philomena.

Your fact would be an interesting discussion point if you hadn't started the conversation with allegations of bias from The Guardian.

As it is, I think it's pretty clear that you are relying on facts the way a drunk uses a lamp post — for support, rather than illumination.

This is not a global eye view just the U.K. Electric cars do not catch fire more often than petrol or diesel vehicles. In fact, the risk of fire in electric vehicles is significantly lower.

According to a study by the National Transportation Safety Board, battery-powered electric vehicles suffer only 25 fires per 100,000 sold, compared to 1,530 for petrol or diesel vehicles, and notably 3,475 for hybrids. Another source states that the fire risk is between 20 and 80 times greater for petrol and diesel vehicles.

However, it's important to note that while the overall risk is lower, the number of electric vehicle fires has seen an increase in recent years. This is likely due to the growing popularity and increased presence of electric vehicles on the roads. For example, London, which has a large volume of electric vehicle ownership, had a significant 507 fires on record in the past five years.

Despite the increase, the percentage of electric vehicles catching fire is still very low. Globally, about 0.0012% of electric passenger vehicles caught fire from 2010 to 2023.

It's also worth noting that electric vehicle fires can be particularly challenging to extinguish and can reignite hours, days, or even weeks after the initial event. Therefore, while the risk is lower, the consequences can be severe, which is why these incidents often receive a lot of attention. I think Its a long wait till EVs are the dominant vehicle on British roads as ICE vehicles have been in the past.
The big problem in the UK is our towns and cities are congested and ten times the amount of vehicles on our motorways than what they were designed for, however on saying that chassis designs are being looked at all the time as to make them safer. couldn't help joining in, and meant in good taste👍.

Yr fct wld b n ntrstng dscssn pnt f y hdn't strtd th cnvrstn wth llgtns f bs frm Th Grdn.

s t s, thnk t's prtty clr tht y r rlyng n fcts th wy drnk ss lmp pst — fr spprt, rthr thn llmntn.


pls, Th Grdn s s bsd t shld b lblld prpgnd lflt, nt nwsppr.

As they say, there is your opinion and the other person's opinion and the truth.

That's fine, I wasn't querying or complaining about the decision.

Biased against or for what exactly?

But to get back to EV cars and this being a scooter forum… I honestly wonder about the environmental impact of EV cars. We are talking 2000+ kg vehicles build using rather exotic materials that have to be mined with great environmental impact. Also during the use, because of the weight these vehicles will shed many kg's of brake and tire/rubber dust. And all this to typically transport only one person.

I feel the world would be better of if everyone switched over to 125cc scooters. With a weight between 130 and 160kg these use much less resources than a car. The gas could come from non-fossil sources.

I think many people would consider a 125cc a good alternative to a car were it not that you need a separate license. A good system would be what we have here in Switzerland. With a car license you can get a provisional 125cc license immediately, valid for a few months. Within these months you have to take 8 hours of classes and the license becomes permanent, no exam.

This statement makes everything else you post automatically dismissible as propaganda.

EDIT: Seems the collective wisdom of MV has chosen to disemvowel our Swiss propagandist. Perhaps he has misjudged his audience.