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Update: i ordered it

My Yuasa* seems to be dying (21 months old?)

Pondering https://superstart.com.au/product/lfp12-bs/

Super Start Battery LiFePO4
* SSB LFP12-BS
* Dimensions 150 x 87 x 93 (127 with spacer)
* CCA 210
* AH 4

can be had for around AU$150 delivered


I'm just concerned about riding at freezing temps now and then (eg my last ride in the snow was in september this year)



*the yuasa ytx12-bs is cca180, ah10, 150x87x130
⚠️ Last edited by SteelBytes on UTC; edited 6 times
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We now have a LFP battery in the LX - huge improvement, as this LX has high compression with the 190 kit.

The LFP batteries are fine for discharge (i.e. starting etc) below freezing, but shouldn't be charged at those temps - HOWEVER any decent battery will have an internal BMS that will prevent that. Of course, once you've ridden for a few miles, the battery temp should rise enough to allow charging again.

So if you think you're in danger of the battery being below 0C while riding, double-check with the supplier or preferably the manufacturer that a decent BMS is fitted.

You could also build your own - I built a 300Ah 12V LFP battery for our van.
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jimc wrote:
The LFP batteries are fine for discharge (i.e. starting etc) below freezing, but shouldn't be charged at those temps - HOWEVER any decent battery will have an internal BMS that will prevent that. Of course, once you've ridden for a few miles, the battery temp should rise enough to allow charging again.

So if you think you're in danger of the battery being below 0C while riding, double-check with the supplier or preferably the manufacturer that a decent BMS is fitted.
I rang them and the guy said he 'won't lie', he simply doesn't know. honesty appreciated
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Double check it is 4ah.

You're only meant to use 50% of a lead battery, but you can run a lithium battery down to about 5%.

A lot of manufacturers then write "4ah Equivalent" on a 2ah battery, then a lot of online websites just spot the "4ah" and write that in their description.

My Elettrica ran about 2/3 of its normal power when in very cold conditions, which I think was the limit of the lithium battery.

If you've gone through a lead battery so quickly, then it's probably worth a shot to see what it's like.

Other benefit is lead batteries spit as they vent, and often this causes a lot of rust long term.

Personally, I'd love a lithium battery at the same capacity as the stock battery, so you've effectively got double the storage capacity.
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at 4 ah I think your undersized IMO.
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Wha? emoticon Snow, freezing temps in Melbourne ? Just learnt something.
SteelBytes wrote:
I'm just concerned about riding at freezing temps now and then (eg my last ride in the snow was in september this year.
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When I need to change my original Yuasa battery I will go for a Aliant YLB14 LiFePO4 (14Ah equivalent). Aliant batteries are made in Italy, most of all other LiFePO4-Battery's are from the same Chinese Factory (with different labels).

https://jamparts.com/battery/batteries-according-to-model/?p=1&o=1&n=10&f=406%7C410

https://jamparts.com/battery/batteries-according-to-model/41406/aliant-ylp14-motorcycle-lithium-battery

Aliant LiFePO4 batteries are good down to -18 °C (= -0,4 °F).
⚠️ Last edited by GermanGTSDriver on UTC; edited 1 time
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SteelBytes wrote:
My Yuasa* seems to be dying (21 months old?)
Why? Who did the initial setup (acid filling, initial charge)? How has the maintenance on it been?

Everything on the charging system is good?

I've been running a random amazon lithium battery in my GTS for 11 months now (gotta put out my one year review soon), so this is my second winter with it. All good, even in the winters of Toronto Canada.

It's the 8ah battery though: https://amzn.to/3teBCCk

I was on the fence about it as I never heard the name before, and the email pitching the product to me came from a gmail domain.... but since they were sending it to me for free I thought, what the heck?

Cranks strong every time. I do put it on a lithium-specific battery tender if I won't be riding the Vespa for a week, but, it's been great.

In my review I will put it on a load tester and see how healthy it still is, but, I think it'll last longer than your Yuasa did. It's strange that thing died so soon. I have a Yuasa that's 8 or 9 years old.
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old as dirt wrote:
at 4 ah I think your undersized IMO.
Not with a Lithium - that's equivalent to 8Ah of a lead-acid at a minimum. The huge extra benefit of lithium is that the voltage remains above 13V even under very high discharge currents - so ideal for starting or (as in my van) running power-hungry inverters to power Instant Pots etc.
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GermanGTSDriver wrote:
When I need to change my original Yuasa battery I will go for a Aliant YLB14 LiFePO4 (14Ah equivalent to 36,4 Ah). Aliant batteries are made in Italy, most of all other LiFePO4-Battery's are from the same Chinese Factory (with different labels).

https://jamparts.com/battery/batteries-according-to-model/?p=1&o=1&n=10&f=406%7C410

https://jamparts.com/battery/batteries-according-to-model/41406/aliant-ylp14-motorcycle-lithium-battery

Aliant LiFePO4 batteries are good down to -18 °C (= -0,4 °F).
For charging? I only saw "-30/+60C operate e storage" in their specs. Which would be most unusual for an LFP battery - in fact unheard of until now...

Discharge, sure, no problem.
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jimc wrote:
For charging? I only saw "-30/+60C operate e storage" in their specs. Which would be most unusual for an LFP battery - in fact unheard of until now...

Discharge, sure, no problem.
Yes, -30/+60C operate and storage, according to specs: https://jamparts.com/media/pdf/0f/53/9b/Batteriendata.pdf

The specification "-18C" comes from various websites, I can't give you any more information than that...
For me personally this is also irrelevant, I don't drive when it's below +15C...
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adri wrote:
Why? Who did the initial setup (acid filling, initial charge)? How has the maintenance on it been? Everything on the charging system is good? ... It's strange that thing died so soon. I have a Yuasa that's 8 or 9 years old.
It's the 3rd battery I've had in this 4 year old bike. all prepared and supplied by the local vespa shop. first replacement was hunting a problem (turned out I needed a new throttle body). 2nd replacement was because after about a year the 2nd battery was not keeping decent voltage, same with this one.

I ride a shit load and should therefore not need charging. the yuasa in my old gts lasted at least 5 years (might have been 7).

but please can we not turn this into a thread about lead.
adri wrote:
I've been running a random amazon lithium battery in my GTS for 11 months now
I didn't consider a cheapo like that. being stuck off grid in the middle of the bush with a melted bms ... I'm too new to lithium to try that


Edit: possibly the yuasa we get in aus are from a different factory than north america ...
⚠️ Last edited by SteelBytes on UTC; edited 1 time
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GermanGTSDriver wrote:
When I need to change my original Yuasa battery I will go for a Aliant YLB14 LiFePO4 (14Ah equivalent). Aliant batteries are made in Italy, most of all other LiFePO4-Battery's are from the same Chinese Factory (with different labels).
14ah equiv is approx 7 real. the same brand as I am buying have a 6ah that was is similar price to the aliant. I was tempted.

note: I didn't see Aliant when surfing lithium available in australia. only a couple of brands and the one I chose was the most common and sold at reputable bike stores.
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BUGGSY wrote:
Wha? emoticon Snow, freezing temps in Melbourne ? Just learnt something.
I didn't say snow *in* melb. I spend a lot of time riding in the country - skim this thread to understand https://modernvespa.com/forum/post2637984#2637984
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SteelBytes wrote:
I ride a shit load and should therefore not need charging. the yuasa in my old gts lasted at least 5 years (might have been 7). but please can we not turn this into a thread about lead.
I keep my batteries (lithium and otherwise) on a charger when not in use and therefore it doesn't matter which ones I do or don't ride a shit load
SteelBytes wrote:
I didn't consider a cheapo like that. being stuck off grid in the middle of the bush with a melted bms ... I'm too new to lithium to try that
Yeah, totally different situation for me, where if my Vespa battery dies I can just hop in an uber home, get my pickup truck, rescue myself, and be home in bed in about 1.5 to 2 hours.

Given your scenario, I'd probably stick with AntiGravity and nothing else. Had really good experiences with a couple. I have a friend who does a lot of custom bike building and usually installs lithium batteries as he trims down people's motorcycles, he says they're the only brand he trusts.

AntiGravity should have a tool on their site to indicate what battery it recommends for the GTS.
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I've used quite a few lithium batteries in motorcycles. Mixed results.

I think it's a mistake to size one based on the seller's equivalency. I have found better results trying to get as close as possible to the OEM battery dimensions.

Also if you let the battery discharge too low it will be useless. I know this from several direct experiences. I'm only installing the ones that will shut off before that level and have a reset button from now on.
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Also good to mention, if you do switch to lithium, you'll need a lithium-specific battery charger/maintainer.

They are starting to make more and more that are switchable, so you push a button to switch between lithium and lead-acid/agm. The Del-Tran Battery Tenders with the switch are only about $10 more expensive than the base models here. Worth it for future-proofing.
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SteelBytes wrote:
It's the 3rd battery I've had in this 4 year old bike. all prepared and supplied by the local vespa shop. first replacement was hunting a problem (turned out I needed a new throttle body). 2nd replacement was because after about a year the 2nd battery was not keeping decent voltage, same with this one.
(...)
3 batteries in 4 years?
That is absolutely not normal.
You should be doing at least several years with a battery. Mine is already 11 years old.

There must be an underlying problem, and I think if not solving that you can switch to Lithium but it will not make a difference.
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adri wrote:
AntiGravity should have a tool on their site to indicate what battery it recommends for the GTS.
2-2.5 times the cost (6Ah). Their website said no matches for gts (it's wrong). And couldn't find it in stock in my city and hardly anyone else in Australia has the brand (link from antigravity's site for aus distributor was to a place that is closed).

So yeah nah. I'm comfortable with my choice of brand as worth a try as it's widely available in Aus.

May get a lifepo4 charger but the manufacturer says i can use lead charger (cause it's got a smart enough bms). Will double check the manual / spec sheet that i assume will come with it.
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adri wrote:
Also good to mention, if you do switch to lithium, you'll need a lithium-specific battery charger/maintainer.

They are starting to make more and more that are switchable, so you push a button to switch between lithium and lead-acid/agm. The Del-Tran Battery Tenders with the switch are only about $10 more expensive than the base models here. Worth it for future-proofing.
how be it the scooter is ok using a lithium battery but you have to have a specific charger for it?
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old as dirt wrote:
how be it the scooter is ok using a lithium battery but you have to have a specific charger for it?
The simplest way of putting it:

All three options (my old lead acid chargers, my new lithium battery chargers, and my bikes) charge batteries. They charge them in three different ways though. The BMS in the lithium battery is picky about how it does and doesn't want to be charged.
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LFP batteries like being charged at a current limited 0.3C, winding up at an absolute maximum constant voltage of 14.6V. So a 6Ah LFP battery should have a bulk charging current limited to 1.8, call it 2A. Not a lot - but the BMS should take care of that. An initial high boost current of 10C is fine for a few minutes - this should get it up to 14.6V pdq. The discharge current can be up to 10C as well for a few minutes, allowing for starter stall currents.

A motorcycle charging system that is voltage regulated to 14.4V is fine, it'll get the battery up to 99% charged.

Remember, a '12V' LFP battery has four cells, and really should be treated as a 13V battery.
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I use a lithium battery in my GTS and it does get cold around here. No issues to speak of.

The key with lithium batteries is, that you will want to put some load on before you start when it's cold outside, that raises the battery's temperature. For example running the lights before you press the starter button.
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giallo wrote:
(...)
For example running the lights before you press the starter button.
How to do that? On your GTS.
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adri wrote:
The simplest way of putting it:

All three options (my old lead acid chargers, my new lithium battery chargers, and my bikes) charge batteries. They charge them in three different ways though. The BMS in the lithium battery is picky about how it does and doesn't want to be charged.
so how does the BMS know where its getting it charging voltage from? the scooter or the battery charger?
And how does it know what type of battery charger your using?
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giallo wrote:
I use a lithium battery in my GTS and it does get cold around here. No issues to speak of.

The key with lithium batteries is, that you will want to put some load on before you start when it's cold outside, that raises the battery's temperature. For example running the lights before you press the starter button.
That doesn't really work very well with a LFP. The internal resistance is so low that almost no heat is generated. If cold temps are going to be a problem, fit a heating mat.
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old as dirt wrote:
so how does the BMS know where its getting it charging voltage from? the scooter or the battery charger?
And how does it know what type of battery charger your using?
Of course it can't 'know'. However if it is sensible (and I have no clue which ones are) then it'll monitor the overall current and individual cell voltages and adjust accordingly.
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giallo wrote:
I use a lithium battery in my GTS and it does get cold around here. No issues to speak of.

The key with lithium batteries is, that you will want to put some load on before you start when it's cold outside, that raises the battery's temperature. For example running the lights before you press the starter button.
My heated grips would be good for this
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old as dirt wrote:
so how does the BMS know where its getting it charging voltage from? the scooter or the battery charger?
And how does it know what type of battery charger your using?
What? No. Go back. Read it again, slowly lol
adri wrote:
The BMS in the lithium battery is picky about how it does and doesn't want to be charged.
It doesn't know where the charge is coming from, but it knows HOW it's coming, and like I said, it knows how it does and doesn't want to be charged.

Some charging sources will match the requirements, others won't. The where is irrelevant, it's all about the how.
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PeterCC wrote:
How to do that? On your GTS.
When I turn the key, the running lights come on. On my GTS.
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jimc wrote:
That doesn't really work very well with a LFP. The internal resistance is so low that almost no heat is generated. If cold temps are going to be a problem, fit a heating mat.
I do believe my battery is a lithium poly one.

I thought LFP batteries warm up when in use. For example this is mentioned here:

Moreover, a lead-acid battery typically becomes weaker in colder weather the more you draw from it. Conversely, LFP batteries warm up when you use them, which reduces the battery's resistance and raises its voltage.
https://volts.ca/blogs/educational/batteries-that-work-best-in-cold-weather

I don't know much about the lithium batteries, besides that I haven't had any issues so far.
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adri wrote:
What? No. Go back. Read it again, slowly lol



It doesn't know where the charge is coming from, but it knows HOW it's coming, and like I said, it knows how it does and doesn't want to be charged.

Some charging sources will match the requirements, others won't. The where is irrelevant, it's all about the how.
12v at 2 amps is just that 12v at 2 amps no matter were its produced at. now if your increasing and decreasing the amount of current like in a desulvation mode of a charger that is not good for a lithium as lithiums needs constant and continuous voltage to fully charge. So the bottom line is : can you use a regular battery charger for a lithium battery ? YES. but there are some things you need to watch for like leaving it on for too long (over charging) and ensuring the charger is just that a charger. not a maintainer or a booster type that puts out over voltage and amps to shock the battery back like you can for lead acid type batteries.
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giallo wrote:
When I turn the key, the running lights come on. On my GTS.
The running lights take very little current, a total of about 3A between front and back if old-fashioned incandescent, about 0.3A if LED. Useless for warming up even a lead-acid battery. You need at least 1C (so 10A for a lead-acid YTX-12BS) to do much good, and you have to do it for more than just a few minutes. Fine with a car battery with say, 120Ah, but do this for more than a few minutes with a m/c battery of 10Ah and it may get weakened enough not to start the bike at all.

An LFP battery only needs warming up above 0C (32F) in order to accept a charge without being damaged. It can happily start the bike down to -20C (-4F) or so, so when the engine is running the alternator can power a heating mat (often internal) and quickly get the battery into a chargeable state. The BMS can take care of all this.
@adri avatar
UTC

Atypical Canadian
2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2318
Location: Toronto, Canada
 
Atypical Canadian
@adri avatar
2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2318
Location: Toronto, Canada
UTC quote
old as dirt wrote:
12v at 2 amps is just that 12v at 2 amps no matter were its produced at. now if your increasing and decreasing the amount of current like in a desulvation mode of a charger that is not good for a lithium as lithiums needs constant and continuous voltage to fully charge. So the bottom line is : can you use a regular battery charger for a lithium battery ? YES. but there are some things you need to watch for like leaving it on for too long (over charging) and ensuring the charger is just that a charger. not a maintainer or a booster type that puts out over voltage and amps to shock the battery back like you can for lead acid type batteries.
I didn't realize that things needed to be hyper specific for you. Yikes...

I didn't mean how they charge the battery from an electrical point of view. I meant how they charge the battery in terms of the steps taken through the charging process.

Lead acid batteries are fine with constant voltage charging, so lead acid battery charges use constant voltage charging.

Lithium batteries typically want constant-voltage charging, but the voltage levels are different depending on where in the charging process the battery is at. The charging process usually consists of a constant current phase followed by a constant voltage phase.

Lithium battery chargers are smart enough to know and be optimized for this, my traditional lead acid motorcycle battery chargers aren't. From my understanding that's the primary reason why the lithium battery chargers are recommended for lithium batteries, and lead acid battery chargers aren't. They work differently.

I'm just trying to help steelbytes and others be aware that lithium-specific chargers exist, work differently, and are recommended by most lithium battery manufacturers. I've done my part. You can charge your own batteries however you want.
@old_as_dirt avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22487
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@old_as_dirt avatar
2007 GTS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22487
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
UTC quote
adri wrote:
Lithium batteries typically want constant-voltage charging, but the voltage levels are different depending on where in the charging process the battery is at. The charging process usually consists of a constant current phase followed by a constant voltage phase.
In lithium the charging cycles between constant current then switches to constant voltage?
@adri avatar
UTC

Atypical Canadian
2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2318
Location: Toronto, Canada
 
Atypical Canadian
@adri avatar
2009 Vespa S50(LX150 motor swap), 2006 Vespa GTS250ie
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2318
Location: Toronto, Canada
UTC quote
See last paragraph.
@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43731
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43731
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
LFP batteries are charged via *current limited* constant voltage. So the supply/charger will be set at 14.6V (3.65V per cell) but be current limited - preferably to between 0.3C and 0.5C. There is no 'one size fits all' LFP charger - the 'best' max charging current is determined by the capacity of the individual battery.

That said, LFP batteries can be charged at 2C or more for a short while - but not on a regular basis if you're after longevity in a daily use battery.

In your scooter with an LFP, the regulator should be trying to regulate at 14.4V, and the maximum current will be all the stator can provide while the bulk charge is happening - the regulator voltage output may well be held down by the battery for a short while. Very rapidly the battery voltage will approach 14.4V and the current sucked in by the LFP will diminish to the 2 or 3A it's very happy with for a long life.
OP
@steelbytes avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2019 GTS300 Supertech E3 60,000km
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5558
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@steelbytes avatar
2019 GTS300 Supertech E3 60,000km
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5558
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
UTC quote
I clicked on the wrong one when ordering. Idiot*

You can see in my first post that i wanted the 12 but i accidentally ordered the 14. I'll make it fit by cutting the spacers. (Ironically if my scoot was working I could ride to the bike shop and swap it).

Anyway, here's the charging instructions on it.

*Actual i blame eBay. When i type lfp12h-bs it gives me plenty of 12 and a couple of 14 in the mix. Stupid thing.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
⬆️    About 1 month elapsed    ⬇️
OP
@steelbytes avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2019 GTS300 Supertech E3 60,000km
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5558
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@steelbytes avatar
2019 GTS300 Supertech E3 60,000km
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5558
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
UTC quote
Now that my scoot is back together I've installed* this and running ok so far. I did purchase a lithium capable charger (Noco Genius G1) and charged it fully first.


* Yes i did cut the spacers because of my accidental purchase of a 14 instead of a 12 (see previous comment)
@vintage_red_matthew avatar
UTC

MV Santa
GTS250, 1975 VBC, 1980 P200E cutdown
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4790
Location: Sedgwick, Kansas
 
MV Santa
@vintage_red_matthew avatar
GTS250, 1975 VBC, 1980 P200E cutdown
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4790
Location: Sedgwick, Kansas
UTC quote
I am in the process of building a solar generator box using two 100AH LiFePo4 batteries.

I may have scrolled past it but don't you need a DC-DC charge controller when charging from an alternator or is that built into the BMS on some batteries? My batteries require a separate charge controller.
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