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Hadn't seen that piston crown before. Funky!
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yo, what's up with this mark in the pink circle? it's present on both the head and barrel. that may have been a point of failure. clean it really good for sure. does it have any texture or just stained?

also, see the trail on the green line and the striations? can you catch a nail on that? is it rough, or dipped down? does it correspond to damage on the gasket? that it's right at the edge of the fire ring kind of concerns me. but if it will clean up, no worries.

good job cleaning, I know that wasn't fun at all.
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greasy125 wrote:
yo, what's up with this mark in the pink circle? it's present on both the head and barrel. that may have been a point of failure. clean it really good for sure. does it have any texture or just stained?

also, see the trail on the green line and the striations? can you catch a nail on that? is it rough, or dipped down? does it correspond to damage on the gasket? that it's right at the edge of the fire ring kind of concerns me. but if it will clean up, no worries.

good job cleaning, I know that wasn't fun at all.
updated pics plus an extra (read further on)

green: I can feel it with my fingernail all the way around. obviously the corresponding ridge on the gasket has caused it. yes surprising.

pink: I had noticed that as a probable point of failure ie not just from the wide water port to the side of this. it is also the stud that was brown before I started cleaning.

Look at the 3rd pic and you'll see what appears to be a ridge left from original machining that goes straight through the pink circle. I can feel this line with my finger on part of it. I believe this is not a crack as you'll see it does not go into the stud hole.
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SteelBytes wrote:
Look at the 3rd pic and you'll see what appears to be a ridge left from original machining that goes straight through the pink circle. I can feel this line with my finger on part of it. I believe this is not a crack as you'll see it does not go into the stud hole.
That looks like a casting cold shut to me. Not necessarily fatal, though.
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jess wrote:
That looks like a casting cold shut to me. Not necessarily fatal, though.
Although i didn't think of that i disagree. I still think it's machining. Look at the way the green highlighted bit stops
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SteelBytes wrote:
Although i didn't think of that i disagree. I still think it's machining. Look at the way the green highlighted bit stops
Yeah, that's a fair point.
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the bore.

The crosshatch is very visible all round. The lengthwise marks are hard to see unless you get the angle of the camera and torch just perfect ie minor / subtle
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Some questions

1. when removing the decompression weight etc I very carefully watched for the little white plastic ring that I saw in robot's pre-hpe video. Never saw one. Hmm. Checked one hpe parts manual and it has one, checked another hpe parts manual and it doesnt! Can anyone confirm that it doesn't?

2. for stud tightening hpe workshop manual says to lube and then 7nm, 10nm,270. robot doesn't mention lube. robot says only do the 10nm step on new studs. hmm.

3. robot uses assembly lube. don't have any. should I get some or use engine oil or use general grease?

4. no comments on my shots of the bore?
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SteelBytes wrote:
Some questions

1. when removing the decompression weight etc I very carefully watched for the little white plastic ring that I saw in robot's pre-hpe video. Never saw one. Hmm. Checked one hpe parts manual and it has one, checked another hpe parts manual and it doesnt! Can anyone confirm that it doesn't?

2. for stud tightening hpe workshop manual says to lube and then 7nm, 10nm,270. robot doesn't mention lube. robot says only do the 10nm step on new studs. hmm.

3. robot uses assembly lube. don't have any. should I get some or use engine oil or use general grease?

4. no comments on my shots of the bore?
2.i would have thought that doing the 10nm step is ok, i always thought it was so that it was to conservatively gradually tighten the head down to prevent any warping so doing on a previously torqued head would be ok. I think I did it that way years ago. I didn't use lube on the threads.

3. You can get assembly lube for 20 bucks at repco.

4. I don't think the bores look bad.
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Every bolt/stud specification I've come across that is using stretch-to-yield bolts/studs (the tell-tale is the requirement for a final turn using an angle, not a torque) has specified lubricated parts. New parts, always.

That said, I've happily re-used studs and head bolts in the past - but been wary about over-torquing them, and kept a close eye for a while afterwards for any hint of 'letting go'.
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SteelBytes wrote:
3. robot uses assembly lube. don't have any. should I get some or use engine oil or use general grease?
Ass'y lube is very different from oil...more of a vaseline-like consistency, so I'd gather there is a reason for that, and worth the search. Seems readily available at auto parts stores in the U.S.(actually think I got mine at a hardware store).

And, not that I know much, but the bore doesn't look concerning.
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ok, so assembly lube (don't know why not normal grease but fine iot's cheap and in walking distance).

next: some have commented (understandably) about the ring that remained on the head after cleaning (it's ever so slightly actually a groove). I checked a video by robot and can see the same ring and he's happy to stick that head back on as is. So that eases my mind somewhat

see this from 13:28

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A piece of glass is probably the best way to check the flatness of the head at home. It's a good idea to place a 1000 grit sandpaper sheet on the glass, then run the head back and forth on it until it is smooth and flat.
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Motovista wrote:
A piece of glass is probably the best way to check the flatness of the head at home. It's a good idea to place a 1000 grit sandpaper sheet on the glass, then run the head back and forth on it until it is smooth and flat.
Make that modern (last 50 years or so) float glass, not some odd pane rescued from a greenhouse.
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jimc wrote:
Make that modern (last 50 years or so) float glass, not some odd pane rescued from a greenhouse.
Good point. And run the bottom of the cylinder head back and forth on the 1000 grit emery paper until it is clean and flat. It will likely be completely white. I do it on the same piece of glass, so I don't get carried away trying to speed the process by pushing down too hard on the cylinder head.
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jimc wrote:
Make that modern (last 50 years or so) float glass, not some odd pane rescued from a greenhouse.
Pshaw. My bench reference flat surface is a used cedar shingle rescued off the side of a Berkeley bungalow.
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glass ...

multiple recommendations of this (not just on this forum). Do I have some? No. Can I walk to a glazier and buy some? Yes. Thickness, glass type, size - better let you guys choose Razz emoticon

Ok, so the intake valves in the HPE head are bigger than pre-HPE. Are these valves very near to the surface of the head? Yes. Do I have a valve spring compression thingy? No, so not removing them. Grabbing my smallest feeler gauge which is 0.03mm I can't get it between one valve and my straight edge*, the other intake I can get a 0.05mm. So only a bee's dick leeway when sanding before hitting the valves. Sanding enough to actually remove the above mentioned circular groove ... hmm, not so sure about that. But yes could sand a tiny bit just to make everything else pretty.

I have also read the short section in the HPE workshop manual for checking head flatness and it does seem flat to me. ie no matter where I tested with a 0.03 the feeler would not pull from under the edge. 0.1mm is what the manual says is the max allowed.


* the best edge I could find in my kit is the shaft of my vernier calipers. Hope that's good enough.
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Get some 6mm glass you only need 25cm x 25 cm to do the job which may be in their off cut bin. Get them to take any sharp bits off the edge.
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SteelBytes wrote:
glass ...

multiple recommendations of this (not just on this forum). Do I have some? No. Can I walk to a glazier and buy some? Yes. Thickness, glass type, size - better let you guys choose Razz emoticon

Do you own a mirror? Are there windows in your house? Have you ever picked up a shingle in Berkeley?
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Motovista wrote:
Do you own a mirror? Are there windows in your house? Have you ever picked up a shingle in Berkeley?
I avoid mirrors. The windows are over 50 years old. I've never been to Berkeley. And my beer glasses are the wrong shape for this purpose
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SteelBytes wrote:
And my beer glasses are the wrong shape for this purpose
However, with some 1000 grit wrapped around them, you may be able to do something about that pesky crosshatch on the cylinder walls.
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jess wrote:
However, with some 1000 grit wrapped around them, you may be able to do something about that pesky crosshatch on the cylinder walls.
Facepalm emoticon
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jess wrote:
However, with some 1000 grit wrapped around them, you may be able to do something about that pesky crosshatch on the cylinder walls.
would I need a metric or imperial pint glass to match the metric 75mm cylinder?
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Rallygeek wrote:
Get some 6mm glass you only need 25cm x 25 cm to do the job which may be in their off cut bin. Get them to take any sharp bits off the edge.
surprised that no one has suggest inches or argued about the type of glass (heat treated etc). well there ya go
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SteelBytes wrote:
would I need a metric or imperial pint glass to match the metric 75mm cylinder?
A 1/2 pint (10oz) Nonic should do the job nicely.
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greasy125 wrote:
pull the tensioner, there's no difference between loosening it and pulling it and in removing it you won't be fighting against it.
EDIT: solved.

I'm stuck with this during reassembly.

it's different than pre-hpe

removed it without loosening. the 'lid' with a torx 20 is still on it and I can't undo it. twisted my torx20 hex trying to undo it. workshop manual shows removing the lid during disassembly. hope it's not reverse thread.

the shaft is fully extended and won't go back in. robot says with the pre-hpe that there is a little tab to push to make it go back in. can't find a tab. workshop manual says it shouldn't go back in once fully extended.

Pic is hpe tensioner with lid off and shaft retracted. Guessing tape is holding the spring?
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Solved. Wd40 and vice grips on the edge of the 'lid' while holding in a vice
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Rather than remove the spring here's my solution for holding the tensioner retracted while bolting it on. Small screwdriver with two full clockwise turns and a small bit of scrap metal to wedge it.
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I think I'm having a bit of a brain lapse. I don't recognize this part. Maybe it's and HPE thing, or maybe my brain is fried today.
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jess wrote:
I think I'm having a bit of a brain lapse. I don't recognize this part. Maybe it's and HPE thing, or maybe my brain is fried today.
It's similar on pre-HPE. Part 25. Bolts to the cylinder.
pre-HPE
pre-HPE
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SteelBytes wrote:
It's similar on pre-HPE. Part 25
Ah, okay. I do recognize it. Just not from the angle in your first photo.
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On the pre-HPE you press the plunger back and lock it with a (plastic?) catch. Then you bolt the thing in place and release the catch. The spring then pushes the plunger down to tension the timing chain. It actually presses down on the black plastic guide thing that sits above the chain.

Just went out to have a look at my two scooters, but it is all totally hidden below the ECU.
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Reassembled and ready to go back in this weekend. I hope I remembered everything 🙏

Thanks to RallyGeek for loaning his torque wrench and his watchful eye while sticking the head on.

Frustratingly i had to take the head off again after Rallygeek went home as I'd forgotten to put the bottom chain guide in 🤦‍♂️
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w00t!
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Well done, given the heat today it's quite an achievement.
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Rallygeek wrote:
Well done, given the heat today it's quite an achievement.
Wasn't much done today. Things like new hose clamps, valves check, new sparkplug, new exhaust manifold gasket (the copper one), attach hv coil bracket and the coil itself, new gasket on the rocker cover (and the ones on the bolts that hold it) and ... and putting all my tools away.
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Well done you!

Time for a Black Beer or three.
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znomit wrote:
Well done you!

Time for a Black Beer or three.
Starting with Fat Yak Pale Ale but there will be Black
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SteelBytes wrote:
Frustratingly i had to take the head off again after Rallygeek went home as I'd forgotten to put the bottom chain guide in 🤦‍♂️
Argh! Been there. Had to remove the throttle body to re-route a hose.... ..and again after I remembered there were TWO nuts on the starter terminal.
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any thoughts on what to fix or watch out for as I stick it back in?

I intend to redo the protection that I added to the fuel hose where it had almost rubbed through as it passes underneath the intake due to poor piaggio design or assembly.
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