Modern Vespa

Here's my list of parts;

Malossi V1 cases
Malossi sport 210
60mm SIP crank
Stock gearing 23/65 with EFL transmission
Ultrastrong clutch
Vape road ignition
SI24 and also have SI26 carb
SIP Road 3
Looking for touring type riding and taking the wife with me sometimes. Ideally would like to do close to 65 on longer rides with no fuss. Oh, I'm premixing too. What do you think of the gearing? Will stock get it done? Open to suggestions.

Nice setup Rob. I think stock gearing will be fine for the 221, torque motor will pull the standard 4th. I like to pop a 24 clutch gear in there to crank it up a notch. I'm in the process now for my 150 (200) super so will be on the journey soon too! Stock cases, 210 Sport, SIP 60mm crank, 24/65, Malossi clutch springs, 24SI with mods, SIP road 2.0

For two up riding i'd install a shorter 4th gear (36 tooth instead of the stock 35).

oh, yeah, probably for two up? I don't do two up so wouldn't know

install a long 3rd and maybe a short 4th.

I do have a 24 tooth for the clutch as well. Would that work with the short 4th?

Anybody have experience with the pinasco venturi on the SI26?

Looks like tall 3rd and short 4th two up. I could always try the 24 on the clutch for solo rides. I bought the Malossi cases after I saw your thread Gick.

I have a 24 tooth clutch and a short 4th in my 210. It works decent for cruising down the flat highway 1up. I mostly ride in the hills and headwinds, so i'll automatically install a 36 tooth short 4th in every single one of my stock or kitted 200 builds. I know it doesn't add up on paper, but it allows me a little bit higher top speed (GPS verified) in just about every situation.

If you have to buy a whole set of individual loose gears, then i could see having a longer 3rd gear to be beneficial. For sure it would make a great close ratio shift to a 36t fourth gear. And if you do end up buying all new 1st-4th gears, i'd be REAL tempted to convert the whole transmission over to an EFL style. The EFL will handle the extra power much better than the non EFL transmission.

Yes! I double checked and I do have the EFL style. Started sweating there for a second. I got it new from SIP. No popping out of gear is the plan.

...and the EFL axle, EFL gear stack washers and shims, and the EFL selector box too?

Yes sir! The whole shooting match! It wasn't cheap.

I went with the KR Automation shift box.

I have to wind out my almost-stock 200 close to 6000 rpm in 3rd before shifting into 4th if I want to keep the party going. It's very workable and I kind of like it. I can see how a short 4th would make higher speeds easier even though it doesn't look like it on paper. The stock 3rd feels very forgiving from cruising in town to decent speed on secondary roads. I haven't noticed any difference between EFL/non-EFL gearboxes, but I don't really push the limits.

A great visual aid to gearing is this calculator - http://gearingcalc.free.fr/

Have a play around with it and see if you find it useful.

I find the short 4th with stock other gears is great, nice to have an even spread throughout without having to thrash it through any gear.

Thank you, Sir! Was wondering when I'd here from you. Abought to pull the trigger on a sip order and didn't want to forget anything. I probably will.

The EFL is only relevant to the small block motor gearing. The US 200s are, as far as I know, the same ratio, even with the later box.

I run my o tune PX200 on stock 200 gearing. 23/65 with 35 tooth 4th. Been riding/developing it for 10 years this year, still amazes me how hard it pulls 4th. It's a waste of time holding 3rd to the peak. It's quicker getting it into 4th gear sooner. Even uphill.

There's more power hidden in yours, if you get the urge.

I have the same setup as the OP. My gear stack is standard PX200, with the 65 tooth primary, plus the 24 tooth DRT cog *and* 100/90-10 tires. Basically the gearing is 4-5% longer than stock across the board, just enough to feel the difference - when cruising at 90km/h the engine's happily lugging along at 5,000rpm.

And it pulls fine, even with a pillion. The Malossi Sport (with a Polinibox or similar) has more than enough grunt to make you stop worrying about gear ratios. 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th, it all feels great. I'd tried a short 4th with this setup some time ago, and it was pointless.

Last summer I rode this setup pretty vigorously over the Transalpina and the Transfagarasan in Romania, with 60 pounds of gear on the back, and it was a treat. There are way rippier builds than this motor -- its hp's probably only in the low 20s -- but I think it's in the sweet spot of being usable and easy to drive. It still feels like a Vespa. And you don't have to worry about getting way up in the powerband before shifting.

And yes, it'll do 65 (105km/h) with a pillion. It's quite happy even at 115km/h, which it'll hold at about 2/3 throttle. The 120-130km/h slot, I reserve just for passing slower cars the highway.

Thank you for sharing your experience with me Jim, very helpful!

My pleasure. One thing though - I think your Vape variable ignition CDI's curve is too aggressive for this setup. It expects a rev-happy racing engine. If you time it to the prescribed 18 degrees btdc at your peak torque of around 6000, you'll be at a reasonable 23 degrees at 3000. But well north of 6000 it'll be gutless, I.e.16 degrees at 7000 and 14 degrees at 8000. Which you'll never reach, because it's so retarded. And this setup, despite its torquiness, hangs on to the power almost to the 8000 mark.

'You might want to fork out another 60 bucks for the static 'road' CDI and time it at 18 and call it a day.

Sorry to take it O/T - this thread's about gearing.

man, i can't agree more. That's why i went with Static on my newly built Malossi 210.

Now that's the kind of help I really need. Just in time too cause I'm finalizing my order from SIP. I would've been screwed without the static curve. You guys just made my day, cheers!

Gick I should have asked you about that when I saw your thread. I had already bought the variable before I went the malossi route.

I just finished installing 60mm SIP crank into my 210 + 24SI + SIP 2.0 with stock 200 gearing with 24 tooth clutch gear, just waiting on a selector box gasket and we'll see how it goes!!

Looking forward to hearing your results!

I have a P200E with a Malossi 210 and both exhaust(box and expansion chambers set-ups). I also have/had a PX150 with a Malossi 210 and P200 gearing and identical set-up(box and expansion chamber set-ups).

What I found is that the stock gearing is a challenge in 4 gear. The scooters would accelerate just fine on the first three gears but the moment that you put forth gear it would struggle to keep accelerating. You would have to tuck down/tuck in to keep going faster and get into that higher RPM power band to keep accelerating.

My scooters would do just fine at 60-65 mph but the gearing was too tall in 4th gear. You can cruise like that all day long but all I am saying is that there is a strong wind barrier at 60-65 mph in 4th gear to keep accelerating.

I do all my testing using tachometer, using the gearing charts, using more than 2 GPS and I use a specific acceleration instrument that measures braking distance, time, speed, Dense altitude, true altitude. The idea of shorter 4th gear is good.

It's easier to add more power than change the gearing. A quick touring tune and set up, then 23/65 and 35 tooth feels ok.

Following along with this really helpful thread. It amazes me the speeds people are riding these scooters. I have yet to see 60 mph on my scooter.

Somewhere around 55mph it just feels…wrong. As if I am fighting a tendency for the bike to lean or it just feels like it's not holding the road very well. This is on a Stella frame with original shocks. Maybe it's my own fear.

here I disagree. yeah, you've got to split it to do a 36 tooth 4th, but you don't have to f#$@ around with jetting if you're already happy with that. sometimes gearing is the best answer, despite the hassle of changing it.

Jetting is where the fun starts. Still excites me to swap a few bits of brass and change a scooter from a gas guzzling mess into a joy to ride.

I don't see swapping out a gear much of a hassle. 99% of the time if you're going to install a cylinder kit, the cases should be split anyhow for any number of reasons...new bearings, new seals, new cross, reshim the gear stack, possibly a new crank, and maybe even replace a few of the other loose gears (if they're damaged).

If my gearing choice doesn't work out I don't have any problem splitting cases to fix it either. Just a clean up and reseal.😃 Blowing up the cylinder might make me cranky though!😣

I feel like no matter how much power you have, a close ratio gearbox will always out-perform a "far-ratio" one.
It's not sexy because it's predictable... you simply never think about it because it's never an issue. Not many of us here have Jack's ability to simply add more power.

I agree and routinely swap out all my 35 4ths for 36, whether a 2xx motor or one of my PX150s, which both became 177/187. I haven't bothered swapping out other cogs in the main stack, nor have I ever gone exotic in the christmas tree department. I've gone 63/24 + the 36 4th for long legs torquey tourer (Pinasco 225), and 68/23 + 36 + 120/70x11 rear tyre on my MHR 221 'screamer'.

Jetting still does me in. It's a hard thing to teach or learn from a distance. It's really hands on and experiential. It reminds me a lot of metal finishing. Very subtle and sensory. Putting an engine back together is much more straightforward and you know when you are done. Even if you are changing port timings, etc you can measure and know you've hit your target. Getting jetting right probably gives the same satisfaction as moving metal to make it do what you want. When those last few taps in just the right places bring a panel into shape. Back when you started learning, you were just beating on it.

Improvements can always be made remotely online but a bit of revving on the stand and a quick 5 minute ride of the scooter, is about the same as a million words.

Takes so long to do online, most disappear after stage 1. No one has ever got much into stage 2. The set up stages being;
1. Rough jetting but rides ok, good enough to not blow up
2. Fine adjustment - Jetting
3. Fine adjustment - Ignition timing

The hardest part is coming to the conclusion that the combo is unworkable. Or you hit the limits of the Si carb. I'm hoping that moving to a side draft carb will improve things.

lol...i'm the guy who quits at stage 1

With Jack's (and others') help over the last couple of years I graduated from Step 1 to somewhere in the middle of Step 2. Spreadsheets were involved.

Step 3 is interesting though. About the only 'fine tuning' I've done with ignition is getting the timing precisely at whatever the jug maker specifies. Is there more to this dark art than that?

Hell yeah. It's more of what 108 has been alluding to.
Pinasco 190cc Jetting ????? (Post 2660236)
Manufacturers just quote the doesn't blow up number, which is a solid place to start. And where to stay at, for the less reckless amongst us.