Modern Vespa

Limited growth is the weakness of capitalism. It's going to crash from time to time.

The availability of EV charging stations right now is probably a lot better than the availability of gasoline when gasoline powered cars first came on the market.

I predict that the take-up of solar panels on domestic and commercial buildings will carry on increasing, to the extent that eventually many places will be almost self-sufficient without taking much power from the main grid. Several suburban districts are already in that position. The main grid will mainly be left with big commercial customers and a myriad of EV charging stations to look after.

Definitely. The gasoline refinery and distribution network had to be created and scaled as cars came on the scene.

In contrast, we already have a well-established electrical grid. It's true that it is strained in places, but it's not like we're starting from nothing.

I see 2 factions going off in two very different directions.

If cost is a major factor in buying a new car and if all that's available is an EV a customer may decide that they can't afford one so they'll either keep what they have or just buy a newer used gas powered vehicle from an Independent.

In this case there's going to be a lot of used well maintained ICE vehicles running around for a good few years yet that are going to be maintained by a growing number of Used Car Dealers and Workshops.

People are always going to want to have new stuff and these customers who have the budget will be buying and maintaining their vehicles at the Franchise Dealerships, which may well thrive as you won't be able to buy anything else and so a divide between the Haves and the Have not's will grow.

There is a bit of a problem on the horizon that's the fact that many of the Legacy Manufacturers - GM, Ford and VW are deeply in debt because of the huge development costs of EV's and they all lose money ( big money ) on every sale, so I'm wondering if this business model will ever become profitable.

Sure you could have a BYD but you know if the company wasn't heavily propped up by the CCP they wouldn't be so cheap and whose going to buy it off you when you come to sell it ?

Tesla pretty much got the jump on everyone and everything so all the other makers are currently having real issues while playing catch up trying to make reliable Vehicles, Software and Profits so well done to them.

So to suggest that people are actively thwarting the statement that EV's are the future I feel is being a little hyperbolic as it's more about indifference and pragmatics rather than activism.

Some customers ( for whatever reason ) may just not want one, so they will only be the future if enough customers opt to be part of the prescribed plan and if for whatever reason they don't, not matter good the incentives are and how attractive the adverts appear then I fear many will remain unsold.

What happens at that point I really don't know. If you're making a product that not enough people want to buy what does the Manufacturer do when it can only ( By Law ) sell one type of product ?

Personally I think that they should live side by side. EV's for the Urban/City stuff and ICE's for the Interstate, or have both like a Hybrid does.

Oh, the irony.

Great isn't it

Great? No, that's not the word I would use.

If there was a 4 day week would you reduce vehicle based emissions by 20% ?

I have an EV now and I clearly need to get accustomed to it. Previously I had like 10 diesel cars in a row that never gave me any worry.

The new car runs really fine and I have no doubt about its reliability.
Also the charging works quite OK, at least when I can find a charging point that is available. Not so easy where I live I have experienced.

But the limited range of now in the winter some 350km is difficult to get used to. Today I still do not have a charging point at home. That should have been installed like 2 months ago, but apparantly these guys are sort of drowning in work. I think when installed then things will be more easy.

So not too bad so far but I still have the idea it would be a perfect car if only it had a diesel engine.

Which make and model did you go for ?

Home charging is the best answer for most EV owners assuming it is possible. I own a Leaf SL Plus which has about that same range and I always charge at home. It is simple, ultimately reliable, and the most economical option. Assuming you would not normally drive more than 350 km per day, you will not need to regularly use a public charger. That is good for you, and good for your EV battery.

Can Rental EVs Survive After Hertz's Shift Back to Conventional Vehicles?

Hertz the biggest rental company bought 100,000 Teslas

https://time.com/6564195/hertz-ev-pullback/

Also The FIA is looking into stricter safety regulation of EV use on UK track days with one track already banning it.

Also its being looked at taxing EVs due to the vehicle considerably weighing more than a conventional ICE vehicle and more wear and tear on the road network.

But tire manufacturers are rubbing their hands.

Lets chew the fat.

It didn't piss me off but it kind of broke my heart.

I was surfing my favorite Vespa forum this morning when an aging motorhead posted.

He was totally committed with his puffed-up attitude, his profile decked-out in the awards of past motor-related glories.

His head was shaven in his profile picture, and to make up for his apparently myopic worldview he'd covered his eyes in seashells.

He was polite enough but he was consistently drawn to posts about EVs, and he always seemed to be looking for conflict with pro-EV people. He automatically took the contrarian viewpoint for no other reason except, seemingly, to be That Guy.

The trouble was his understanding of EVs and the EV landscape looked to be all of about 20 years in the past and that just made it funny and sad at the same time.

Mate, you've lost. Give it up.

The Rules
Modern Vespa is a privately-owned, moderated forum, staffed solely by volunteers. As such, we reserve the right to remove any post for any reason, though we will generally only do so for posts which violate one or more of these rules.

- Racism, hate speech, politics, religion and personal attacks are prohibited.
- Divisive topics such as EV topics abortion, the death penalty, guns, and helmet laws are prohibited.
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- Commercial postings and pornography are strictly prohibited.

Any of the above things will get your post unceremoniously removed, at a minimum. It might also earn you a rebuke from the moderators, a temporary timeout or an outright banning, depending on the nature of the offense, how long you've been here, and whether we think you make, on the whole, a positive contribution to the community. New users who offend in their first handful of posts get much less leeway than people who have been around contributing to the community for a long time.

We are striving to preserve a tone of friendly community here. Any user demonstrating the tendency to be disruptive -- even if they haven't committed any of the specific offenses listed above -- will be promptly removed.

Jess please don't take this the wrong way, but you was quick to pull me up on my attitude taking a downward spiral on a recent EV topic too which I apologized for as it being my profession I felt strongly and shouldn't have let it get to that stage.
This is a volatile subject and will carry on creating bad feeling now and many years into the future, every human is entitled to an opinion and that's the clash, can it not be written into the rules above ( no EV topics) write the rules adhere to the rules, Kind regards Buggsy 😉👍

I think you misunderstand, BUGGSY. Sometimes moderating this forum involves removing posts. Sometimes it involves banning people. Sometimes it even gets ugly.

Other times, for the more recalcitrant members who are intent on stirring the shit but clever enough to stay within the boundaries -- the letter of the law, if not the spirit -- a different approach is required.

And that's what you're witnessing here.

EV manufacturers have made compromises to tyres to improve efficiency because range anxiety is preventing people from buying.

The ludicrous acceleration is probably a big factor in accident rates too.

🤔Okay got it, So the aging, bald headed geezer who enjoys wearing seashells needs to go to an Optician to sort his Myopic problem

I strongly disagree. I have been an owner and driver of EVs for 11 years so I feel I have more background on this subject than most and often comment when it is raised. I don't see that the problem is EVs or the MV rules. The problem you are actually referring to is political discussions. Now why EVs have become politicized in some peoples minds is beyond me, but there it is. Regarding the MV rules - political discussions are already banned. I hope MV members can discuss this (or any) actual subject in a factual manner, if they wish to engage, without veering into personal political views. If not, the rules already tell you what to avoid.

There you go then, like I wrote every human is entitled to have an opinion and you have just had yours as an owner, driver;), the quip about writing it in the rules was my sense of humour
And had you read it is my profession of now over 20 years and was addressing Jess over a post,
And one thing I try not to do is to get into a debate on forums

EVs become politicized when one political party forces their mandate within a ridiculous time frame, ignoring things like infrastructure, or the working class poor, or the ability of EVs to successfully replace some vehicles (like motorcycles).

EVs become politicized when somebody use words like "ridiculous"

Aight, y'all. Knock it off with the politics bullshit. The people who insist that EVs are political are, almost without exception, the people who are steadfastly against EVs.

We are talking about the technology of EVs here.

If you want to talk about government regulations regarding carbon emissions -- a subject that is largely orthogonal to EVs -- then I would politely ask you to take it up with your government representatives, who are actually in the business of politics.

We're not interested in the politics here.

I hope that's clear.

It was never about Politics but it did eventually become Policy.

The real starting point of the EV revolution was when VW starting fitting cheating devices to its cars because it couldn't be bothered to make Diesel engines that would run clean enough to get through an Emissions Test.

They knew from the start they were never going to pass by the way.

When they got busted they gambled their future on manufacturing EV's in a desperate attempt to turn their reputation around, and they have failed.

During that time Tesla carried on doing Tesla things but all the other manufactures realised that they didn't want to be the one's being left behind, especially when someone as big as VAG were throwing their weight behind it so the race began as they all committed to a Green Future.

Right now it appears that everybody else is winning as the ID4 in only the 8th best selling EV in the World.

Remember that this is the largest Motor Manufacturer in the World by Revenue.

Sales are 30% down on their own projections and they can't get the Software right party because they don't have the experience and Tesla are so good at making it.

It's a perfect mess and they did it to themselves because until they ruined it for themselves the others were just kicking their feet, with one exception so if you're looking for a Ground Zero, that was it.

I have a Zero motorcycle. I'd gladly give half the power for twice the range. Even only 50% more range.

Half the speed too?

If only we could harness the power of heated discussion!

I feel the need to qualify something.

I've worked for 5 Premium Auto Manufactures, 4 of them German and having seen it from the inside I've become pretty cynical as to the way they operate and the way that they will sell you a dream, even when there's a known problem and this makes me cynical.

They are banking on your aspirations and your ignorance.

When you witness this process it pretty much destroys your faith in the Product, The Marketing and PR machine that supports it and the Salesman that peddle the B/S to the masses.

So if I'm not behind this big push you'll have to forgive me because I know how the sausage has been made.

Sorry about that.

You just won the internet for today.

As the main reason behind the push for EVs is to reduce our use of ff, why isn't there more discussion and effort directed at reducing the amount of driving we do?

I find that puzzling and disappointing.

In terms of reducing ff use, scooters seem to be a far more effective solution than EVs. If we were serious about ff dependence and the co2 problem, 2 wheel transportation would be prioritized at this point.

Which is why I have a Kymco Downtown.

Because :

To be clear, I am not anti ICE. I also maintain a solid record of being apolitical. That being said, I love my EV, but there are days I also love my Toyota Tundra.

But winters in Michigan on a scooter are sometimes not the best option.

Average Americans drive 37 miles per day. I drive much less than that. But not everyone has the options I've had. I've spent the last nine years working 2.5 miles from home. It was a choice. I have turned down jobs that pay significantly more. But, less time on the road is more time with my family. I can always make more money, but I'll never get the time back.

My previous job changed from a 12 mile round trip to a 40 mile round trip. It was THE reason I bought my first scooter.

Previous owners of Hybrid cars tell me they are the worst of both worlds in that they have to refuel in petrol stations and recharge at home.

Unless it's a PHEV a Hybrid will recharge its own battery.

Engineer at work recently bought the Ford Escape hybrid and loves it. Lots of options. He can do most of his daily commutes solely on battery and charge overnight at home. He can also drive across the state, which he does often to see family. About 300 miles round trip.

It also gives him the option to switch between battery only and gas and give priority to either. It's a pretty nice setup.

I believe that Ford were using the Toyota Hybrid System.

Having said that just how many "old" Prius do you see still running around ?

Around here ... quite a lot.