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seamus26 wrote:
Around here ... quite a lot.
Just a quick search, there are 31 used Priuses (Priuss? Prii?) for sale within 100 miles of me, 13 of which have over 150K on them and 5 with over 200K.
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Standard. Built to last.

Correct it's Prui. Like Lexus is Lexi.
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Soooo... my pickup truck has a hydraulic lift on the back. That thing weighs about 600 lbs, and can lift several thousand pounds.

Even with my 5.4 liter V8 running, raising and lowering that hydraulic lift, especially with a heavy bike on it, will make the truck idle a lot faster, and the lights dim, as the motor has to work harder to make enough power to power the thing. It runs for 30 seconds at a time.

Anyone care to guess, for a setup like this, moving bikes commercially, how much range that extra draw would take out of the battery of an electric truck?

Start at 3:42 to see it in action:

The video is sped up for short youtube attention spans.

It's about 30 seconds running to lower the lift (empty) at pick up
30 seconds running to pick up a bike (working harder if picking up a heavier motorcycle)

Then another 30 seconds lowering with load at drop off
and 30 seconds picking up the empty lift again afterwards

Repeat for 3-4 bikes per day, so about 6 to 8 minutes of powering that hydraulic lift to pull between 200 and 1,000 lbs.

I know the guesses will be purely hypothetical but, it's just for shits and giggles so have some fun with it.
How much might raising and lowering this in and out of the bed 6-8 times per day impact your range?
How much might raising and lowering this in and out of the bed 6-8 times per day impact your range?
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chipshot wrote:
As the main reason behind the push for EVs is to reduce our use of ff, why isn't there more discussion and effort directed at reducing the amount of driving we do?
Reducing carbon emissions (not necessarily use of fossil fuels) may be one the major -- or even the major -- motivation to purchase an EV.

However!

I don't think that's actually what makes most EV owners love their EVs. They are, almost without exception, smoother, quieter, and much more pleasant to drive. It's a point that I think most non-EV owners don't quite fathom, and certainly the assholes that want to make EVs political will never fathom: these cars are just better from a user experience point of view.

That's not to say there aren't any issues with them. Tesla build quality is notoriously terrible, and yet people still love their Teslas. My Fiat500e has a range the size of a mosquito's nutsack, and still I much prefer it over my wife's Honda CRV. They are currently still on the expensive side (though that is improving).
chipshot wrote:
In terms of reducing ff use, scooters seem to be a far more effective solution than EVs. If we were serious about ff dependence and the co2 problem, 2 wheel transportation would be prioritized at this point.
There are two separate but related parts to that: reducing usage of fossil fuel and reducing carbon emissions. Both are important, but for largely different reasons.

Scooters reduce the amount of fossil fuel used -- but they're actually notably worse in terms of various emissions when compared to a full-size car.
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Bill Dog wrote:
I believe that Ford were using the Toyota Hybrid System.

Having said that just how many "old" Prius do you see still running around ?
Loads around here. The ones that finally get scrapped have their batteries either recycled or converted into home batteries to complement solar installations.
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adri wrote:
Soooo... my pickup truck has a hydraulic lift on the back. That thing weighs about 600 lbs, and can lift several thousand pounds.

Even with my 5.4 liter V8 running, raising and lowering that hydraulic lift, especially with a heavy bike on it, will make the truck idle a lot faster, and the lights dim, as the motor has to work harder to make enough power to power the thing. It runs for 30 seconds at a time.
My scooter lift takes a maximum of 8A at 12V...
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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The engines are often good for 250,000 miles plus.

They really nailed it with that model.
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jess wrote:
Scooters reduce the amount of fossil fuel used -- but they're actually notably worse in terms of various emissions when compared to a full-size car.
Even w the huge difference in weight and mpg? Is it based on a mileage basis, or running time?

Also, the manufacturing should be accounted for, as is true when comparing EVs to ICE. Would think scooters have much lower ff input and emissions generated than cars in the mfg process.
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jess wrote:
Scooters reduce the amount of fossil fuel used -- but they're actually notably worse in terms of various emissions when compared to a full-size car.
Hmm... Even my 2003 GT200 is passed as fit for London's ULEZ (Ultra Low Emissions Zone).

More modern ones - even better, by a big factor.
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znomit wrote:
Half the speed too?
Due to relation between speed and power halving the power will only cut quarter of maximum speed. That is the reason most 150cc scooters will easily reach 60 mph but nearly no 300cc will reach 120 mph.
For acceleration. I have been playing with the limits in Custom setting. Even with torque limited to 15% I am still accelerating from all cars driving normally.
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chipshot wrote:
Even w the huge difference in weight and mpg? Is it based on a mileage basis, or running time?
Here's a fairly reasonable article explaining the details: https://gearjunkie.com/motors/motorcycle-vs-vehicle-emissions

Also an older article sourced from Mythbusters: https://www.latimes.com/archives/blogs/greenspace/story/2011-09-28/mythbusters-asks-are-motorcycles-greener-than-cars
chipshot wrote:
Also, the manufacturing should be accounted for, as is true when comparing EVs to ICE. Would think scooters have much lower ff input and emissions generated than cars in the mfg process.
Agreed.
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jimc wrote:
My scooter lift takes a maximum of 8A at 12V...
Mine's rated for about 6 of those. So, how much range would it kill?
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Bill Dog wrote:
Which make and model did you go for ?
A BMW iX1 xDrive 30. It is really driving very well, but that 300HP are far over what is needed in daily driving.

I had to make the choice a year ago and back then the xDrive 30 with its 2 engines was the only option in iX1.
Today I would choose the single engine eDrive 20. Still has 200HP. Still more than enough.
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adri wrote:
Mine's rated for about 6 of those. So, how much range would it kill?
Bugger all!
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Dooglas wrote:
Home charging is the best answer for most EV owners assuming it is possible. I own a Leaf SL Plus which has about that same range and I always charge at home. It is simple, ultimately reliable, and the most economical option. Assuming you would not normally drive more than 350 km per day, you will not need to regularly use a public charger. That is good for you, and good for your EV battery.
I 100% agree. And no problem at all to install one at my home.

But as said these installers seem upto over their ears in work.
I am not the only one having this problem. Most of my colleagues with an EV had to wait weeks or months before the charging point was installed.

They will contact me 2 weeks in advance to make an appointment. I am still waiting for that call or mail.

Indeed when I can charge at home then I have no more problem. My daily ride is some 110km. Public chargers will only be needed for longer trips. I only make a few of these a year.

In summer we typically spend a week or 2 in Italy. It is 950km from home to Milano, and another 600 or so more to Roma. This summer I would like to visit the southern part of Lazio, south of Roma.

I am told these long trips are good doable with an EV, with ever more fast chargers along the way and ever better functioning apps to guide you.

But I think maybe this year we will still take the good old diesel for that holiday trip.
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PeterCC wrote:
I 100% agree. And no problem at all to install one at my home.

But as said these installers seem upto over their ears in work.
I am not the only one having this problem. Most of my colleagues with an EV had to wait weeks or months before the charging point was installed.

They will contact me 2 weeks in advance to make an appointment. I am still waiting for that call or mail.

Indeed when I can charge at home then I have no more problem. My daily ride is some 110km. Public chargers will only be needed for longer trips. I only make a few of these a year.

In summer we typically spend a week or 2 in Italy. It is 950km from home to Milano, and another 600 or so more to Roma. This summer I would like to visit the southern part of Lazio, south of Roma.

I am told these long trips are good doable with an EV, with ever more fast chargers along the way and ever better functioning apps to guide you.

But I think maybe this year we will still take the good old diesel for that holiday trip.
For 110km per day, surely just a Level 1 charger will do the trick, and just plug straight into a standard household socket?
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jimc wrote:
Bugger all!
Actually? Are we talking about yours or mine? I would assume given that the RPMs are rising higher than idle to keep up, and the lights are still dimming, that it's drawing quite a lot of power needed, and for an extended people of time. But I know "bugger all" about the power capacity and how much juice is required to raise and lower 200-700 lbs a dozen times a day.
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adri wrote:
Actually? Are we talking about yours or mine? I would assume given that the RPMs are rising higher than idle to keep up, and the lights are still dimming, that it's drawing quite a lot for an extended people of time. But I know "bugger all" about the power capacity and how much draw is required to raise and lower 200-700 lbs a dozen times a day.
As I said, 8A at 12V - and that's only for 20 seconds at a time. 0.5Wh or 0.0005 kWh - so bugger all.
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znomit wrote:
(...)
The ludicrous acceleration is probably a big factor in accident rates too.
I do not know if facts support that statement.

But you are right about acceleration being a lot faster than needed.

My EV car has a bit more than 300HP and a torque of some 500Nm and when I floor the gas pedal its acceleration is as you say ludicrous.

I think an engine of 150HP with a torque of 300 - 350Nm is really more than enough for normal active daily driving.
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jimc wrote:
For 110km per day, surely just a Level 1 charger will do the trick, and just plug straight into a standard household socket?
You know, maybe I just have to try that for now.
I have the cabling for it. Maybe it would work.
Charging will be very slow but during the evening and the night there is plenty of time.
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jimc wrote:
For 110km per day, surely just a Level 1 charger will do the trick, and just plug straight into a standard household socket?
The catch with L1 charging is that it is so slow. With larger capacity EV batteries becoming the norm, a full recharge wouldn't be possible overnight. In PeterCC's case, if he didn't ever drive much more than 110 km per day and charged every night he could just keep up. But that would mean that he would not be able to use the other two thirds of his battery capacity unless he resorted to away from home fast charging, and he would not have the option of charging once every 2 or 3 days when only using part of his capability daily. Personally I have found L2 charging at home to be cost effective and convenient, so long as that is compatible with your living situation.
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PeterCC wrote:
You know, maybe I just have to try that for now.
I have the cabling for it. Maybe it would work.
Charging will be very slow but during the evening and the night there is plenty of time.
I charge nightly on 110v on a 15 amp circuit and have no issues. The FIAT draws 12A, but I'm sleeping while I'm charging.

Oddly enough, whoever wired our house put the detached garage and also the basement on the same circuit.

The other day I had the car plugged in and charging, the washer going and when I plugged my guitar in, BAMF! Breaker blown.

So, it's JUST enough.

Doing some quick number crunching, in eight hours I can charge about 12.7 kWh. At 4 miles/kWh that gives me almost 51 miles driving from an overnight charge. Colder weather is worse, for sure.
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adri wrote:
Anyone care to guess, for a setup like this, moving bikes commercially, how much range that extra draw would take out of the battery of an electric truck?
I'm going to read between the lines here and make the wild guess that you're trying to make a point. I'm not entirely sure what point you're winding up to, but if I had to guess, I would guess that you're going to make the argument that EVs are somehow incompatible with your use case.
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seamus26 wrote:
I charge nightly on 110v on a 15 amp circuit and have no issues. The FIAT draws 12A, but I'm sleeping while I'm charging.
Ditto. I charge almost exclusively on household 110v. Fortunately it's on a mostly-dedicated circuit.
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jess wrote:
Ditto. I charge almost exclusively on household 110v. Fortunately it's on a mostly-dedicated circuit.
Same here - but I did just add a 240V 20A circuit for if and when we purchase a level 2 charger.
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jess wrote:
I don't think that's actually what makes most EV owners love their EVs. They are, almost without exception, smoother, quieter, and much more pleasant to drive. It's a point that I think most non-EV owners don't quite fathom, and certainly the assholes that want to make EVs political will never fathom: these cars are just better from a user experience point of view.

That's not to say there aren't any issues with them. Tesla build quality is notoriously terrible, and yet people still love their Teslas. My Fiat500e has a range the size of a mosquito's nutsack, and still I much prefer it over my wife's Honda CRV. They are currently still on the expensive side (though that is improving).
Our 500e is like driving a go-kart! HUGE fun.
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I must confess that I am fascinated by the form factor of the 500e. I was disappointed that Fiat evidently has no plan to upgrade the battery when reintroducing the 500e to the US this year. All 3 of you have to confess that the 500e has a pretty small battery by current standards. And, of course, charging a battery of that capacity with a L1 charger avoids most of the drawbacks I mentioned above. The same would be true of charging an electric scooter with a L1 charger as well.
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jimc wrote:
Our 500e is like driving a go-kart! HUGE fun.
Indeed! And the torque steer will always get your heart pounding when you inadvertently steer yourself toward the center median.
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Dooglas wrote:
I was disappointed that Fiat evidently has no plan to upgrade the battery when reintroducing the 500e to the US this year.
I don't believe that's the case. The new 2024 Fiat 500e (RED) has a larger range and, according to published specs, a bigger battery.

Citation: https://insideevs.com/news/702452/2024-fiat-500e-range-specs-pricing-overview/

I am quite tempted, in fact.
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Dooglas wrote:
The catch with L1 charging is that it is so slow. With larger capacity EV batteries becoming the norm, a full recharge wouldn't be possible overnight. In PeterCC's case, if he didn't ever drive much more than 110 km per day and charged every night he could just keep up. But that would mean that he would not be able to use the other two thirds of his battery capacity unless he resorted to away from home fast charging, and he would not have the option of charging once every 2 or 3 days when only using part of his capability daily. Personally I have found L2 charging at home to be cost effective and convenient, so long as that is compatible with your living situation.
I made a bit of calculation.

In the app of the car I can limit the AC charging.
If I set it to 12A and plug the car into the 20A-230V 1L circuit I have in the garage the battery would charge at 2.7kW during late evening and night. I should be able to charge some 25-30kWh per day. That would be more than what I need to cover my daily consumption.

You can ask: why limit to 12A - 2.7kW if you have 20A - 4.6kW available? That is because here in Belgium part of the monthly electricity cost is based on the maximum power in kW that you have consumed during a quarter of an hour in that month. I try to keep that peak power around 5 - 6kW.

I will try it out tomorrow evening. See how it works.
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On a related note to the purchase of EVs - in the US at least, at last purchasers of both new and second-hand EVS will be eligible for cash rebates, not the previous tax rebates which were eff-all use to those who pay minimal taxes, if any. This will hugely help those with limited incomes to afford a reasonably priced EV.
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seamus26 wrote:
I charge nightly on 110v on a 15 amp circuit and have no issues. The FIAT draws 12A, but I'm sleeping while I'm charging.
(...)
Doing some quick number crunching, in eight hours I can charge about 12.7 kWh. At 4 miles/kWh that gives me almost 51 miles driving from an overnight charge. Colder weather is worse, for sure.
Your numbers are in line with what I should get out of my regular 230V circuit.
In Europe Voltage is always 230V and standard socket circuits are 20A, lighting circuits are 16A.
So I should be able to charge roughly double what you can at 12A.
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jess wrote:
I'm going to read between the lines here and make the wild guess that you're trying to make a point. I'm not entirely sure what point you're winding up to, but if I had to guess, I would guess that you're going to make the argument that EVs are somehow incompatible with your use case.
I suspected that it would be taxing on the battery for my use case, yes, but no, not trying to make a point. Legit curious, because like I said:
adri wrote:
I know "bugger all" about the power capacity and how much juice is required to raise and lower 200-700 lbs a dozen times a day.
Buuuut...
jimc wrote:
As I said, 8A at 12V - and that's only for 20 seconds at a time. 0.5Wh or 0.0005 kWh - so bugger all.
I'm surprised there was an easy formula like this and that it works out so little, cool. In my mind I assumed it would be much more taxing. TY for sharing.

Just curious, where does the 8 amp come from? Is that a guestimate based on the truck running?
@pigletpilot avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Gina, 1965 Vespa 180SS, Bella,1968 Vespa 150 Super, Mia, 2017 Vespa Primavera 70th Anniversary 150ie, Gabriella, 2017 GTS300 ABS
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Molto Verboso
@pigletpilot avatar
Gina, 1965 Vespa 180SS, Bella,1968 Vespa 150 Super, Mia, 2017 Vespa Primavera 70th Anniversary 150ie, Gabriella, 2017 GTS300 ABS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1941
Location: Hamilton/Kirikiriroa, NZ
UTC quote
I saw an interesting point made by Harry Metcalfe on Harry's Garage You Tube channel regarding charging. He is normally okay about electric vehicles and has good charging at home, but he noted that it takes more electricity to charge the vehicle, whatever one he is charging, than he actually gets capacity from. It's to do with losses due to heat and electrical resistance if I remember correctly. He likened it to dropping 10% of your petrol on the ground when filling. He wasn't saying this was bad, just that nobody, particularly manufacturers, talks about it. Probably reinforces some of Bill Dog argument.

OP
@jimc avatar
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Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Posts: 44525
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
adri wrote:
I'm surprised there was an easy formula like this and that it works out so little, cool. In my mind I assumed it would be much more taxing. TY for sharing.

Just curious, where does the 8 amp come from? Is that a guestimate based on the truck running?
Power provided by 300Ah house battery, van not running, BMS reckoned 8A discharge.
@dooglas avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
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Posts: 13505
Location: Oregon City, OR
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@dooglas avatar
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 13505
Location: Oregon City, OR
UTC quote
jess wrote:
I don't believe that's the case. The new 2024 Fiat 500e (RED) has a larger range and, according to published specs, a bigger battery.

Citation: https://insideevs.com/news/702452/2024-fiat-500e-range-specs-pricing-overview/
Gosh, that is good news. The early announcement that I saw a few months ago said that the battery capacity would not be upgraded. Changing from a 24kwh battery to a 42 kwh battery is a big deal. It makes the little 500e quite attractive IMO.
@jess avatar
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Petty Tyrant
0:7 And counting
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Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
@jess avatar
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Location: Bay Area, California
UTC quote
Dooglas wrote:
Changing from a 24kwh battery to a 42 kwh battery is a big deal. It makes the little 500e quite attractive IMO.
It's high on my list.
@dooglas avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
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Posts: 13505
Location: Oregon City, OR
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@dooglas avatar
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 13505
Location: Oregon City, OR
UTC quote
jimc wrote:
On a related note to the purchase of EVs - in the US at least, at last purchasers of both new and second-hand EVS will be eligible for cash rebates, not the previous tax rebates which were eff-all use to those who pay minimal taxes, if any. This will hugely help those with limited incomes to afford a reasonably priced EV.
Yes, though the new program is income limited unlike the previous new vehicle rebate and many vehicles are no longer eligible due to sourcing of batteries and components. This still seems to be somewhat in a state of flux and potential buyers need to do some research on who and what is eligible. As you say, the newly offered used EV rebate is especially attractive for those on a limited income.
@oldfatguy avatar
UTC

Hooked
Hurricane 200X, 2020 TW 200 (sold), 2022 Liberty 150
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Location: North Alabama
 
Hooked
@oldfatguy avatar
Hurricane 200X, 2020 TW 200 (sold), 2022 Liberty 150
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Posts: 190
Location: North Alabama
UTC quote
Looks a lot like the MV forum has morphed to the EV forum.

OFG
@jess avatar
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Petty Tyrant
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 38089
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
@jess avatar
0:7 And counting
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Location: Bay Area, California
UTC quote
Oldfatguy wrote:
Looks a lot like the MV forum has morphed to the EV forum.
It's the dead of winter for most of us. You expect us to be talking about scooters?
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