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Cool, thanks for the pics. What about the exhaust stub? Is it aluminum?
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qascooter wrote:
Cool, thanks for the pics. What about the exhaust stub? Is it aluminum?
Yep! Outer diameter is .2mm smaller than my stock one and inner diameters is .2mm smaller as well.
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Excellent, thanks!
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UTC quote
Looks better quality in your pictures.
What are the dimensions to deck, ex port, main transfer?
Where does PBT sit when bolted on a 57mm crank with stock 0.2mm base gasket?
How wide is the exhaust port?
Maybe rub out a port map with some dimensions on it.

You going to have it running soon? Would be nice to compare by fitting on a fully stock motor.
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Hi all just had to pay import VAT on this......
£48.66
So be aware if ordering from UK.

Mo.........
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Mole wrote:
Hi all just had to pay import VAT on this......
£48.66
So be aware if ordering from UK.

Mo.........
Ummmmphhh… that's a hefty amount…
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Jack221 wrote:
Looks better quality in your pictures.
What are the dimensions to deck, ex port, main transfer?
Where does PBT sit when bolted on a 57mm crank with stock 0.2mm base gasket?
How wide is the exhaust port?
Maybe rub out a port map with some dimensions on it.

You going to have it running soon? Would be nice to compare by fitting on a fully stock motor.
Don't have time to bolt it on. Leaving for two week work trip tomorrow morning. Here's some rubbings. Exhaust port width @ 41.30mm measured on paper. Will put it on my bone stock minus a Road 2.0.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Found this on SIP
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I *really* like the piston.

did it come with circlips or wire clips? what's the difference in ring width?

casting looks a bit better than the alum Indian 200 plus cylinders I was playing with a bit go, that's for sure.

definitely a viable option if you're already looking at an next over or a wasted barrel.
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MJRally wrote:
Found this on SIP
Somebody's fibbing at SIP. I looked up their part number for the original cast iron PX200 cylinder that they used on their dyno graph. P/N 41470800. And i quote, "Is your old cylinder kit worn out, reconditioning not worth the effort anymore or do you want to pimp your aged 10PS PX ride with the better performing 12PS original PIAGGIO cylinder kit? We are able to offer the high-quality 12PS PIAGGIO PX 200 cylinder at a fair enough price!"

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/cylinder-piaggio-200-cc_41470800
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MJRally wrote:
Don't have time to bolt it on. Leaving for two week work trip tomorrow morning. Here's some rubbings. Exhaust port width @ 41.30mm measured on paper. Will put it on my bone stock minus a Road 2.0.
Great job. Port timing is low like the stock cylinder but all depends on the PBT. From the chart you found it looks like there's no downside. Standard performance just more of it.
Exhaust port width is an opportunity. That 41.3mm is just under 60%. If those rings are 1.5mm it will go to 65% which is 43mm. While at it, 1mm up on the exhaust port would improve top end, with loss not below stock bottom end.
Seems ideal for guys who just want a bit more.
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whodatschrome wrote:
Somebody's fibbing at SIP. I looked up their part number for the original cast iron PX200 cylinder that they used on their dyno graph. P/N 41470800. And i quote, "Is your old cylinder kit worn out, reconditioning not worth the effort anymore or do you want to pimp your aged 10PS PX ride with the better performing 12PS original PIAGGIO cylinder kit? We are able to offer the high-quality 12PS PIAGGIO PX 200 cylinder at a fair enough price!"

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/cylinder-piaggio-200-cc_41470800
The factory 200 had a 10PS lower power version for some markets. The 12PS iron cylinder here is the same as the original doorstop. I think no foul.
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MJRally wrote:
Don't have time to bolt it on. Leaving for two week work trip tomorrow morning. Here's some rubbings. Exhaust port width @ 41.30mm measured on paper. Will put it on my bone stock minus a Road 2.0.
If the exhaust port on paper is 41.30mm that's about 38.7mm chord which is about 57.6% of the bore.

Looks like there's plenty of meat on the exhaust port to take out…
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HI,
Has anyone had thoughts on carb jet sizes ?

Mo......
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Following with great interest. Popcorn emoticon

From their description, "The cast aluminum material ensures better heat dissipation compared to the grey cast iron of the original PX and Rally 200 cylinders. The raceway is coated, which makes it extremely durable. Overall, the choice of material significantly increases the durability and reliability of the Cylinder."

Curious as to what the coating is. Looks really thick to be electroplating of nickel silicon carbide. There is no mention of it in the description. I could be wrong.
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Mole wrote:
HI,
Has anyone had thoughts on carb jet sizes ?

Mo......
you should always keep an eye on the jetting if you have made a technical change to a 2-stroke engine.
It would be negligent not to do so.
As it is a replica of the original cylinder, it is not necessary to change the jetting.
However, I do not know the current configuration of your engine. Therefore, we cannot take on this task.

from SIP
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Mole wrote:
As it is a replica of the original cylinder, it is not necessary to change the jetting.
Anybody who believes this has more money than sense Facepalm emoticon
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markosmarkos wrote:
Following with great interest. Popcorn emoticon

From their description, "The cast aluminum material ensures better heat dissipation compared to the grey cast iron of the original PX and Rally 200 cylinders. The raceway is coated, which makes it extremely durable. Overall, the choice of material significantly increases the durability and reliability of the Cylinder."

Curious as to what the coating is. Looks really thick to be electroplating of nickel silicon carbide. There is no mention of it in the description. I could be wrong.
what the hell is a raceway? the ports? it's the old SIP version of english again I think.
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Hi
Fitted it on , was a easy fit.
Went for a short run ( 20 miles ).
Kept speed between 30 to 40 mph.
Checked plug when home and it is running lean.
Turn up the Mixture Screw
At that speed I know main jet does not come
into play.
But I will up the main jet.

Mo......
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Mole wrote:
Hi
Fitted it on , was a easy fit.
Went for a short run ( 20 miles ).
Kept speed between 30 to 40 mph.
Checked plug when home and it is running lean.
Turn up the Mixture Screw
At that speed I know main jet does not come
into play.
But I will up the main jet.

Mo......
Careful. This is when the damage begins. Whats all the jetting? Air filter?

It's going to need more than a bigger main jet to be safe.
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Steely Dan wrote:
https://www.scooter-center.com/en/cylinder-original-200-ccm-aluminium-oe66.5mm-vespa-px200-rally200-cosa200-motovespa-dn200-ds200-3333826?number=3333826


Looks like Scooter Center has it too. Looks identical.
Their description, which does mention Nicasil, translated by the interwebs:

"Description Well-made replacement cylinder, made of aluminum with durable Nicasil coating. Contrary to what the modified layout with 5 overcurrent channels suggests, it is only slightly stronger than an original cylinder. Can be used as a 1:1 replacement for the original Piaggio cylinder. Bore: Ø66.5mm Stroke: 57mm Displacement: 198cc Cylinder Material: Aluminum, Hard Ceramic Coated Piston rings: 2pcs without approval"

Here lies the rub, their graph shows that their cast iron, BGM 9020017 cylinder makes more power than the Aluminum 3333826 one.

Perhaps oopsclunkthud's observation of the off-centered boost is having more detrimental effects than an off-center ex. port.
cast iron vs. aluminum
cast iron vs. aluminum
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UTC quote
that graph has to be down to a difference in port timing, not the actual potential of the cylinder.

The thing I don't understand on the aluminum cylinder is why they offset the boost port. There is no stud in the way or any other reason for it.

If I got the aluminum cylinder I think I'd put an iron liner in it and fix the boost port at the same time.
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Jack221 wrote:
Careful. This is when the damage begins. Whats all the jetting? Air filter?

It's going to need more than a bigger main jet to be safe.
Standard jetting but know going for a 122 main


Mo........
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Mole wrote:
Standard jetting but know going for a 122 main


Mo........
Keep going bigger and bigger on the main jet until its spluttery to ride but you can still ride it. This point is just one or two sizes too big but totally safe at brief and occasional higher throttle.
When you get to this stage a bigger pilot jet is needed. Until I know the size of the MJ/AC that splutters, its hard to guess a pilot size. But it will be much richer. What sizes you have at home?
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Jack221 wrote:
Keep going bigger and bigger on the main jet until its spluttery to ride but you can still ride it. This point is just one or two sizes too big but totally safe at brief and occasional higher throttle.
When you get to this stage a bigger pilot jet is needed. Until I know the size of the MJ/AC that splutters, its hard to guess a pilot size. But it will be much richer. What sizes you have at home?
Just one more 124.

Mo...
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UTC quote
Finally home and playing with the cylinder. Good thing I was, as my stock P's exhaust stub was a few turns out and the head was leaking.

Only problem so far I've found with the SIP cylinder is the transfers don't match the cylinder. A Road 2 exhaust slides on perfectly though!
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Sharpie is the cases. Piston matches the cylinder. I know it's still better than stock, but I'm a little underwhelmed.
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I'm not sure who this kit is for now… shouldn't they have matched the ports?

I feel like it's a copy of the malossi 210 layout made in SEA for their crazy engines… (have you seen some of the builds they have? Honestly improving Vespa parts all over the place, top stuff)

But means everything is modded…
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The side ports on the 200 cases were never to be used. They're the same shape as the small blocks and related to the die during casting. You'll need to match the ports and close up a portion of them…

Even if you open up the ports on a stock cylinder, they don't even come close to the cases. This was an O-Tune and marking is how most do a Malossi or what this new kit will need…
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SaFiS wrote:
The side ports on the 200 cases were never to be used. They're the same shape as the small blocks and related to the die during casting. You'll need to match the ports and close up a portion of them…

Even if you open up the ports on a stock cylinder, they don't even come close to the cases. This was an O-Tune and marking is how most do a Malossi or what this new kit will need…
It'd be good to be able to avoid welding, but the discovery of weico has helped out our cause.
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That's JB-Weld in the pic…
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SaFiS wrote:
That's JB-Weld in the pic…
JB weld/weico potato, potaato.

JB works for sure, I've used it most times. Failed once when it delaminated, not enough hardener.
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MJRally wrote:
Finally home and playing with the cylinder. Good thing I was, as my stock P's exhaust stub was a few turns out and the head was leaking.

Only problem so far I've found with the SIP cylinder is the transfers don't match the cylinder. A Road 2 exhaust slides on perfectly though!
Just ignore this. These cylinders don't use the base cut outs. The transfer is through the piston.
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Jack221 wrote:
Just ignore this. These cylinders don't use the base cut outs. The transfer is through the piston.
Correct. I just think it's a missed opportunity to bring something new.
OP
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If we wanted to do the porting, wouldn't we just start with a Malossi cylinder? The appeal and price point of the SIP cylinder and piston is surely to replace the stock items like for like, add a 60mm crank and get a useful power boost with better thermals?
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swa45 wrote:
If we wanted to do the porting, wouldn't we just start with a Malossi cylinder? The appeal and price point of the SIP cylinder and piston is surely to replace the stock items like for like, add a 60mm crank and get a useful power boost with better thermals?
It is cheaper… but I feel like it's in the middle of no man's land with the ports and piston. Why not add proper transfer ports on the piston?
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This chunk is about to fall off and ruin your day. Everything about this cylinder screams 'close but no cigar'.
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pullmyfinger wrote:
This chunk is about to fall off and ruin your day. Everything about this cylinder screams 'close but no cigar'.
You're back! Nice to see you here again.
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