Sledge wrote:
"I found a large woman's handbag"
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Hobbitus Moderatorus
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GT_ZAPMD39 wrote: Commas aren't necessarily heard in speech, but definitely needed here. The handbag of a large woman or the large handbag of a woman. There's and old pun/saying: "Let's eat Grandma" versus "Let's eat, Grandma." Commas save lives. I just had a chat with Grammarly's AI chatbot: Quote: me: Are commas needed in the first sentence for clarity? Grammarly AI: No commas are needed in the sentence: "I found a large woman's handbag." The sentence is clear and grammatically correct as written. Adding commas would interrupt the natural flow and create confusion. If you intended a different meaning—such as describing a large handbag belonging to a woman—it's still correct without commas. If the sentence were longer or contained additional descriptive elements, commas might be necessary, but in this simple construction, they are not needed. The sentence could be revised for clarity. Here are clear versions for each interpretation: 1. Large handbag belonging to a woman: "I found a woman's large handbag." 2. Handbag belonging to a large woman: "I found a large woman's handbag." To avoid ambiguity, you might also rephrase: For a large handbag owned by a woman: "I found a large handbag that belongs to a woman." For a handbag belonging to a large woman: "I found a handbag belonging to a large woman." The position of the adjectives and possessives makes a big difference. |
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Hooked
2024 GTS 300 HPE (Principessa)
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monogodo wrote: I just had a chat with Grammarly's AI chatbot: |
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GT_ZAPMD39 wrote: OK, I'll go with it. But: 1) without changing the wording, which Grammerly says to do to make it clear, a comma is the only way to clear the ambiguity; 2) I wonder what Grammerly has to say about Grandma. We don't want her family to be cannibals. 2. A comma is inappropriate in that usage, because, as Grammarly said, "Adding commas would interrupt the natural flow and create confusion." So I plugged it in with commas and it indicated in each case that using a comma was incorrect. I asked it to explain why: "I found a large, woman's handbag." Quote: Comma after "large": When you have two adjectives before a noun (e.g., "large brown dog"), you only use a comma between them if they are coordinate adjectives—meaning you could swap their order or put "and" between them and the sentence would still make sense ("large and brown dog" or "brown large dog"). In "large brown dog," "large" and "brown" are not coordinate adjectives; "brown" is more closely tied to "dog," describing the color, while "large" describes the size. Therefore, no comma is needed after "large." Quote: Comma after "woman's": A comma should never separate a possessive noun from the noun it possesses. For example, in "the woman's coat," "woman's" modifies "coat" directly—there should be no comma between them. Placing a comma after "woman's" incorrectly separates the owner from what is owned, which is not grammatically correct. |
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Hooked
2024 GTS 300 HPE (Principessa)
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Posts: 189 Location: Cape Ann, Massachusetts, USA |
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Hooked
2024 GTS 300 HPE (Principessa)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 189 Location: Cape Ann, Massachusetts, USA |
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monogodo wrote: 1. it's Grammarly, not Grammerly. (Because it's fixing grammar.) 2. A comma is inappropriate in that usage, because, as Grammarly said, "Adding commas would interrupt the natural flow and create confusion." |
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GT_ZAPMD39 wrote: Uncle. From my own experience as the child of two HS English teachers, and having worked at a luxury retailer for 12 years, my interpretation of "I found a large woman's handbag" would be that the speaker found a handbag belonging to a large woman. My reasoning is that the word "woman's" is possessive and singular. Now, how one would know that the woman who owned the handbag was large is another question. |
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Ossessionato
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T / Aprilia Sportcity One 50 / 2016 Vespa Sprint 50
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monogodo wrote: I agree that it is poorly phrased, as it obviously can be interpreted multiple ways. From my own experience as the child of two HS English teachers, and having worked at a luxury retailer for 12 years, my interpretation of "I found a large woman's handbag" would be that the speaker found a handbag belonging to a large woman. My reasoning is that the word "woman's" is possessive and singular. Now, how one would know that the woman who owned the handbag was large is another question. If you were talking about women in general with regard to the handbag, the correct designation would be "women's" handbag, which would be plural possessive. By saying "woman's" you are stating you found a handbag belonging to a particular large woman. Of course, you could be relating the story to someone having already returned it, in which case you would know that she's a large woman. At any rate, it should be noted that using the adjective "large" to describe a woman in today's climate could be considered insensitive, derogatory and offensive. So, for the record, we here at Modern Vespa are all very, very bored. |
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Primavera 150S (for sale), and GTS 310
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Molto Verboso
Primavera 150S (for sale), and GTS 310
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monogodo wrote: Now, how one would know that the woman who owned the handbag was large is another question. |
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Hobbitus Moderatorus
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monogodo wrote: If you intended a different meaning—such as describing a large handbag belonging to a woman—it's still correct without commas. The fact that Grammarly AI simultaneously misunderstood the sentence while declaring that the meaning was clear is comical. So, what we have learned here: (a) The sentence is unnecessarily ambiguous and needs some form of clarification. (b) Grammarly AI is both wrong and overconfident about the original intent of the phrase. (c) Grammarly AI is both wrong and overconfident about whether the phrase needs additional clarification. (d) When we take what AI says for granted, we become just as wrong and overconfident as the AI. Dunning-Kruger, anyone?
Positive
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Hooked
2024 GTS 300 HPE (Principessa)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 189 Location: Cape Ann, Massachusetts, USA |
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Hooked
2024 GTS 300 HPE (Principessa)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 189 Location: Cape Ann, Massachusetts, USA |
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Hobbitus Moderatorus
S50, R1100s, way too many pushbikes
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jess wrote: This single sentence neatly summarizes the entire subject. Grammarly AI clearly understood the sentence to mean a handbag belonging to a large woman, when the most reasonable and common-sense reading of the sentence is actually a large handbag belonging to a woman -- the "different meaning" referenced above. The fact that Grammarly AI simultaneously misunderstood the sentence while declaring that the meaning was clear is comical. So, what we have learned here: (a) The sentence is unnecessarily ambiguous and needs some form of clarification. (b) Grammarly AI is both wrong and overconfident about the original intent of the phrase. (c) Grammarly AI is both wrong and overconfident about whether the phrase needs additional clarification. (d) When we take what AI says for granted, we become just as wrong and overconfident as the AI. Dunning-Kruger, anyone? When I read "I found a large woman's handbag," I interpreted it to mean a handbag belonging to a large woman, mainly because handbags generally belong to women, although there are men who carry them too. Were I the one to find it, and wanted to state what I'd found, I'd have said, "I found a large handbag." Most people would assume it belonged to a woman, and her physical stature is irrelevant. And trust me, any time I use AI, I always check it to make sure it makes sense. It will always make shit up in its replies, so I question it and verify it myself. I will admit I'm a bit more lenient with Grammarly, but that's only because of my own background and knowledge of grammar. The main problems I have with my writing are the overuse of commas (and occasional underuse) and the use of passive voice. |
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Ossessionato
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T / Aprilia Sportcity One 50 / 2016 Vespa Sprint 50
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jess wrote: This single sentence neatly summarizes the entire subject. Grammarly AI clearly understood the sentence to mean a handbag belonging to a large woman, when the most reasonable and common-sense reading of the sentence is actually a large handbag belonging to a woman -- the "different meaning" referenced above. The fact that Grammarly AI simultaneously misunderstood the sentence while declaring that the meaning was clear is comical. So, what we have learned here: (a) The sentence is unnecessarily ambiguous and needs some form of clarification. (b) Grammarly AI is both wrong and overconfident about the original intent of the phrase. (c) Grammarly AI is both wrong and overconfident about whether the phrase needs additional clarification. (d) When we take what AI says for granted, we become just as wrong and overconfident as the AI. Dunning-Kruger, anyone?
Lita
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seamus26 wrote: Until AI gets better than this, I don't trust it. No sir, not one little bit. Sometimes AI is just pure magic. And by magic I mean absolutely unreal and useless. |
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1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T / Aprilia Sportcity One 50 / 2016 Vespa Sprint 50
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Posts: 3477 Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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