Modern Vespa

Just like the title says...VAPE ignitions, static vs variable timing. Went SIP first introduced the VAPE kits, the variable timing version seemed to be the hot ticket for all engines (both stock and tuned). But for the past few years or so, it's appearing like the static timing is a better choice for most engine build applications. But at what point does one decide between installing a static or a variable ignition?

There's many different states of largeframe tuning, such as-
-stock
-long stroke stock (60mm crank)
-O tune (either with a 57mm or 60mm crank).
-Malossi 210 sport
-malossi 210 MHR
-Sito + type box exhaust
-chambered type box exhaust
-expansion chamber racing exhaust


Then there's smallframe tuning as well..

So at what point is a variable ignition beneficial?...or required?

Cases in point. Should i be swapping out my variable CDIs for a static version?

I have a P208 (stock cylinder, stock porting), 60mm crank, 24/24 oil injection, SIP zero squish head, JL right expansion chamber, SIP, VAPE variable.

PX210 Malossi Sport (non ported), SIP Viper exhaust, rotory crank, 30mil Dellorto carb. HHP variable CDI.

Pink smallframe (with a largeframe 200 installed), 24/24 oil injection, full O tune, SIP zero squish head, PM tuning Up and Over expansion chamber, VAPE variable.

The variable is always better IF you understand how to set it. It gives you (maybe just a little) more power in the lower RPM ranges before you're in the power band.

It also makes for easier starting because it takes the timing waaay back on the initial ignition stroke, like 24 BTDC, so you get a lot more first kick starts.

Historically, variable timing was more expensive and failure prone. The Vape seems to have solved the second, and at least not overly contributed to the first of those problems.

So what if my engine doesn't even rev up to 8k? I see that Jon Gick likes using the static version for 210 cylinder.

It touches on the subject about it halfway down this page... Gearing for Malossi Sport 221

I built a Malossi 210 engine with all new parts

Variable timing is better, even on a bone stock scooter. Increases torque and improves economy. Setting it up is not so easy and has to be done in conjunction with jetting. Making already difficult, at least twice as hard. If changing a variable back to static and there's no obvious difference, it was never set up right in the first place. The risk of going too far advanced and doing damage with variable is high. Can totally understand why static is becoming more popular.

depends on what your objectives are with the engine; right? Do i need it for a 1951, single port, 125cc engine? Does a customer need it for their engine? Do i really need it for an engine that is not going to rev to the moon? hmm. . .

not sure there is a right or wrong answer here, but that's my 2cents anyways.

Yeah variable ignition will definitely be a performance upgrade over any ignitions which the timing doesn't change much over the rev range.

You'll have more torque off the line and will be able to run cooler at sustained high rpms, and with prevent pre ignition/pinking.

Most benefits will be for an engine that passes 8000rpm, if not, there won't be much movement in the timing advance. That is unless you have an ignition with a very steep ignition curve, which would probably benefit high revving engines more than stock or a mildly tuned engine.

Granted the biggest challenge is jetting for variable vs "static" (or an ignition with a flatter timing curve).

For the same engine but different ignitions, the static ignition will run on leaner jetting overall vs the variable which will need to be richer when it's set with an earlier advance timing.

That's why ignition will be most important when trying to set jetting. Which is primarily dictated by cylinder design, compression and squish.

Static I think is easier to set and jet for stable results (but it's wasted potential for sure) that's probably why people might favour them more. But I definitely think most aftermarket kits are designed with using a variable ignition in mind.

Ummmph… verbal diarrhoea over… but agree with the sentiments from previous posts, depends on what engine/riding characteristics you want before deciding.

The OP's specs all seem really good if set properly, so I can't see why you would change to a static vape. The static vape isn't static at all… it's just a shallower curve. Which needs to be looked at.

I was having a lot of issues with the Pinasco variable ignition on a lightly built P200 with a box pipe. I played with the timing quite a bit and still had some annoying flat spots. I was using a timing light and measuring RPM and did quite a bit of tweaking. That being said there are a lot of variables, maybe there was an issue with my equipment or something I don't fully understand. I have had good luck with variable ignitions on smaller 2-strokes that consistently operate at higher RPMs while riding.

A friend who knows his way around 2-strokes suggested trying static timing so I grabbed a BGM box and the issues I was having disappeared. He said that variable timing was really only worthwhile if you are using an expansion chamber.

I sort of wonder if a lot of the gains on a stockish set-up would mainly be the lighter flywheels that come with a lot of aftermarket variable timing ignitions. Lighter flywheels (not too light) have often made a big difference to responsiveness.

So let's revisit my most current engine then...P208 (stock cylinder, stock porting), 60mm crank, 24/24 oil injection, SIP zero squish head, JL right expansion chamber, SIP, VAPE ignition.

I have both a static and a variable VAPE CDI in my shop. So it sounds like i should proceed to use the variable CDI then? If so, at what RPM should i set what degree of retard? I don't know too much about the JL right, but i'm going to assume that it will rev up to around 7500 rpm? The cast iron cylinder is has NOT been ported. I'm guessing there should be just under a 74mph top speed?

The Sport CDI is a racing curve. Misnomer.
It's close to impossible to make it work on a long ride bike, unless you retard it to the point where you lose power at max rpm vs the Road curve.

Shorter rides, climbing hills, stop and go, the Sport is better. More power for sure.

The issue with that curve is when you're cruising in 4th 20+ miles. At that rpm it's too advanced. CHT creeps up, and there's no way to retard or jet your way out of that (based on my two year experience with only one ) without losing something, vs the Road curve.

Misnomers.
Sport = Racing.
Road = Touring.

A few holed piston pics out there. Dyno'd, afr and egt good. Holed piston on a tour/rally.

All my scooters are used for touring (except my T5 track bike). I hop on the highway and keep the speeds anywhere from 55-65mph for 30 miles at a time...usually battling hills and headwinds along the way. Sure, i have stop and go traffic when i pull off the highway, but i'm not one for racing from stop light to stop light. My favorite riding style has always been on a laid back stock P200. It just gets the job done again and again with no hiccups. It would only take me a few minutes to swap out the current variable CDI (that i have installed) for the static version.

I've been searching around alot to find different setups for my 221 Malossi Sport build. The closest I've found were on the SIP website and they all used the road version. I'm not new to engine tuning. I've worked with 2t's but man alot of different setups are possible with these scoots! Wish there was an app you could plug in what you have and want done then it tells you the jetting, timing and the best tweeks for porting and the best gearing!! For me I would rather be riding than wrenching cause I couldn't afford to have the work done.🤣 Ray makes an excellent point on the two versions. I love this thread and look forward to everyone's ideas and best setups.

Doesn't take long to swap, but rejetting it is a different story.

If laid back is you thing, probably doesn't make much sense getting a variable ignition.

But it's not a bad thing having it if you have it, just needs jetting properly.

Working with the same Malossi 221 setup as BajaRob above, I'm resigned to the fact that the Vape road CDI is plenty good enough for the time being. I've tinkered with variable by way of a Smart Booster a while back, where a gentle curve with 6 degrees of separation led to a stronger idle, better first kick starting, smoother power delivery at lower RPMs, and peace of mind holding it above 3/4 throttle. Buuuut then I switched to the Vape and turns out the SB2 isn't compatible with it. And as folks have mentioned above, the Vape's Race CDI has a too-aggressive curve for a grunty Malossi Sport that peaks just north of 6000.

Vape offers a third option that allows for a mild curve, a programmable CDI (which I think needs a new cone as well?) and a control unit. All of which adds up to like 800 bucks if I'm not mistaken. Too rich for my blood. Until Vape comes out with a simple swap-in "touring" CDI that fires similar to the SB's 6-degree curves, I'll stick with the road CDI and focus on dialling in the jetting, which has way more rewarding "aha" moments anyway. I suspect some huge number of Vespa tinkerers, myself included, have no business messing around with variable ignition given that our carburetion is still janky.

I can't find that, do you have a link?

CDI:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/ignition-coil-sip-performance-by-vape-race-sip-performance-ignition_51008700

Overrev ignition unit:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/cdi-ignition-unit-overrev-sip-performance-ignition_51008620

Flywheel:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/flywheel-sip-performance-by-vape-race-12v_51007160

That's 409 euros, or $440. I overestimated that pricing in my last post. It's still a fair deal of money though.

I'm still hoping that Vape someday releases a goldilocks variable CDI, same price as the "Race" one, that can be swapped in. I don't like the idea of bolting an expensive DIP switch unit onto the frame just for these marginal gains.

EDIT: I had a look at the timing curves available on the Overrev:
https://www.lambretta-teile.de/mediafiles/Downloaddateien/2018-02-15_Overrev_Manual_English.pdf
Now, assuming this is the same control unit for all models (this is the documentation for the smallframe), it looks like there's nothing on the menu here for regular touring folks whose engines run out of juice around 8000. There's *one* curve that starts climbing down at 4500, but only gently. The rest of them only start retarding between 5000 and 7000. D'oh!

I thought maybe it was something different that you'd seen, but turns out it isn't. I should come clean and admit that I actually bought (at least part of) this a year or so ago, pretty sure SIP were not selling it at the time so I went directly to Overrev. They were reasonably helpful - or should I say not unreasonably unhelpful - but think I had to pay the VAT which I wouldn't have through SIP.
Anyway I haven't tried it yet, in fact I've spent very little time on the scooter for a year.
I only bought the CDI and ignition module though, on the advice of Marco from LTH (who is helpful!).

I feel like the special flywheel to suit the system is the same as the regular kind - same weight, diameter, number of magnets etc. They note that it is rated at 134 watts rather than 110, not sure if the magnets are stronger and why they would need to be? I would have thought that the stator windings and rpm determine the output.

In the guide they recommend curves #1,#1M, #1R and #2 for engines that reach peak power before 7500rpm. Interestingly #1 is a flat "curve" at 18 degrees, no advance at all.

What would be awesome is what this guy has built, not sure if it would work with the Vape - digital ignition advance display
So you could actually see what advance you were running when, and the do something about it.