Modern Vespa

Bought a vespa, vnb6t (largeframe) for a year ago.
Didn't have any ideas to fix it more than a quick service. Turned out to be a lot of rust. Put it back in the garage, and have now, finally got the motivation to start fixing it again...

Anyway. I found this forum and found a lot of good subjects that gave me some good information.

My idea is to upload pictures and describe the process. I hopp that you guys might give me some tips on the way.

First of all, i need a new floor board. There seems to be quite some issues with the manufacturer though since it out of stock everywhere.
If anyone knows where to buy, please let now!
The floor measures 480×470mm and since i am from sweden, i would like to order from the EU.

Here is a picture of the mess

Welcome and good luck on your journey!!!

SIP has the floor you need...

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/repair-sheet-legshield-floor-board_PV152759

Came here to say the exact thing! Enjoy and trust the process.

Thanks for your reply!

Not sure if the board you linked is the correct.
The floor i am looking for is the one following:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/repair-sheet-floor-board_PV152330?usrc=Frame%20-%20Repair%20Sheet

Open for suggestion though, or am I missing something maybe?
The board that I cutted of measures 480x470. And it's from the old welding lines. [/url]

It's the same, just longer reaching the curve close to the legshield. You can cut it where you want or else you wait for the shorter version...

Ah, makes sence.

I think I will go with the one you linked then.

I bought a board from another site:
https://www.10pollici.com/en/homepage/classic-vespa/frame/frame-repair-sheet/repair-sheet-floor-board-vespa-vnb-4-6t-vbb2t.2.1.297.gp.12201.uw

The site says its it's in stock, but then I got a message about the delivery problem.

Do you how thick the steel is one the board from SIP? The one i ordered says 1mm.
Same quality overall?

Well, the more you enter into this world the more you will be accustomed to the world of varying quality and fit of aftermarket parts. Will it work? Absolutely, but it will require some finesse and some compromises? To be sure.

Welcome - just keep posting all your questions to this thread. Sometimes people start new threads for every detail, but keeping it all in one space will make it easier for everyone. Looking forward to following your progress.

Thanks a lot for the welcome from everybody.

First of all, I bought the longer board from SIP. Hope to get it next week.

I realise that it's a jungle with all the parts avalible, and the quality seems to vary a lot... it takes time to be installed in this kind of niched hobby i guess.

Another thought i had, was to give the engine some job as well.
I have seen that there is some people that have added an extra transfer port from the crank.

I am not sure if that's something I want or need to do, since it seems not to be necessary if i don't want to max out all potential power.

Anyway. I read that the old crankshaft might be good to idea to change.
I looked into a couple and finally actually bought a MAZZUCCHELLI from SIP, since i was allready buying the floor board from then.
The one i bought is this: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-crankshaft-mazzucchelli-sip_45131000?usrc=Crankshaft

I always get out of hand when I start a new project. Same thing as always...
But I don't mind, I think it's fun

Most vintage Vespa (and Lambretta) sheet metal is about 1mm thick so that should work, assuming that the replacement is a good one.

Good! I bought from SIP. And from what I can see it looks good.

The board is the same as linked above.

I have a question for you guys...

My plan is to open the motor next week or so.
The idea is to split the engine completly and change the crankshaft to a racing model from MAZZUCCHELLI.

I have been thinking about adding a third port in the engine case.
I have made some research and from what I have read there is both pros and cons.

Cons:
- Risk to damage The engine case
- welding. I have to go to find someone that can weld aluminium. (I have not The tools for it)
- extra cost to machine The case after The welding
- The extra power might not be overwhelming

Pros:
- More power
- good to have it done for cylinder upgrades in the future
- I might be able to add extra material without welding and use J.B weld or other alternatives.

SIP have a lot of cylinders, and the 177cc seems to be the best alternative.
The D.R kit already have the extra port, but comes with a spacer that closes the extra port, if I don't want to cut the engine case.

What do you guys think?
Hit me up with all your thoughts and ideas.

More power is always fun, of course, but if it's only 2-3 extra HP, it might be a better alternative to just let it be.

Chefers!

Pinasco makes a 177 for the 2 port engines, that from what I can tell will put you in the same range as a stock 200. Cheaper than cutting another port that's for sure.

Thanks for reply!

I am going to open the engine case anyway, since I will change the cranks shaft.
But there will of course cost me money to get the case machined anyway.

Agreed. I have a mate with a 2 port Pinasco and he's pretty quick on it. There are certainly much more powerful cylinders out there, but this is a great starting point. If you are interested in tuning then a good shortcut would be to find a P motor to play with, the VBB has limits and money could be spent wisely elsewhere.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-cylinder-pinasco-177-cc_80510000?usrc=pinasco%20177%202%20port

Aha, Nice!

P motor, is that the same as PX? As those As linked below?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespa_PX

A vote for the 177 Pinasco 2 port. That's what I have in my VNB and it's a torque monster. Granted it is a VNB4T so I am on 3 gears, but it is an absolute blast and will do 62mph.

+1 on the Pinasco 177cc kit.

(Mine is the iron cylinder, not alu).

It is responsive and zippy on my restored '64 VBB. Upsize your carb and exhaust if you use it.

Good alternatives!

I may buy a px200 case and have separatly for the future.

My VNB case will use either the pinasco, as you guys recomend, or the D.R.

I have only found good information about the D.R. kit as well.

Can anyone explain the main difference between the D.R. and the Pinasco?

Both have uncentered sparkplug, Both cylinders are made in cast iron.
They have slight different transfer channels. What more?

Yes. The DR, like most of the cylinder kits you see, has 3 ports. This 3rd port will possibly hang out over the engine casing and be unable to be sealed without a fair bit of work (usually welding).
Some cases are flat in this part and could seal, but it's been my experience so far that the earlier cases like yours usually only have a thin sealing surface.

If you have a 3 port base gasket, try it on your case where the cylinder sits. I think the issue will be pretty obvious.

The 2 port Pinasco is made for cases exactly like yours, and they do go well.

(You might note that the Pinasco 177 so-called "2 port" aluminium version comes up in a search, this comes with a plate that blocks off the 3rd port in the cylinder, and the cylinder height is made shorter to accommodate the plate's thickness. I don't believe that there's any great advantage to spend the extra on the aluminium kit.)

Fantastic information!
Thank you for that!

It will be a pincaso, cast iron combined with the MAZZUCCHELLI crank shaft.

I fill up with another question, as we speak about the cylinders.

I read that some where speaking about the "squish".
I made my homework and understand the principle.

Some says that you got to much squish with the Pinasco, cast iron and that ideal squish should be about 1,5mm.

Any ideas about that?

The "ideal" squish varies from motor to motor and is dependent on lots of things... this below from Jack - My advice at this stage is don't get too bound up by the numbers, just try the kit and see how it goes. It's really a pre-squish era design anyway so the measurements won't tell you much.

On a basic kit like this there are a number of things you can do to improve performance, but to me it's no fun unless you know how much you've increased performance by. The head comes with the kit anyway, so give it a go.
Later if you feel you'd like to make some performance improvements - maybe after you've improved the brakes a bit! - then you could look at a head like this. It's a much more modern design and will give you the ability to control squish better to get a bit more performance from the cylinder.
At that stage you probably would have worn out your clutch and will be looking for an upgrade... and this is where the spare PX motor starts to make sense.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/cylinder-head-malossi-mk-iii-177-cc-by-mmw-polini-dr-pinasco-177_38348610

Thanks for the information!

I understand that the cylinder is older.
Seems like it has happen a lot over the years.

I am thinking a lot about my options.
I have a few alternatives as what I see it from.

Option one:
I buy the Pinasco, cast iron, cylinder. Combine it with my MAZZUCCHELLI crankshaft and a nice proper carburator and just go with that.

Option two:
I weld the engine case, so I get more surface and get the third transfer port.
That expands a lot for me with many more alternatives to choose from.

Option three:
I find a newer engine or just a crankcase from a PX.

I know Option one would be the easiest Option.
However, i think I would easily regret that alternative.
I most likely will strip the engine again...

I have been looking on ebay. I find a lot of PX crankcases for about 300usd.
They are however from india and I have no idea about the quality, or if my other parts from my old VNB would fit in a PX engine?

I would love to hear your ideas.


Regards 😊

Get off Ebayeeee!!

Open the engine and inspect what you have in there, next step.

If you want a lot more power, and changing crank anyway, the bolt on quattrini option applies to yours too.
What would be engine case upgrades? (Post 2669565)

Perhaps a question we didn't ask - what do you want out of this? Do you want to surprise motorcycles at traffic lights? Or tour the mountains? Maybe just pillion your partner around the coffee shops. All different answers.

The Pinasco will give you something that can (mostly) keep up with stock 200's. Possibly not a good measure if you have not much Vespa experience though. It's a good fit for your current motor and should be a reliable solid motor.

Jack's Quattrini suggestion is a great one, if you want pretty much the most power you can easily make on a 150 two port case. The old cases have good castings, but I think there will be a number of challenges to get everything working nicely in that case. I don't think it's a great starting point for a beginner in Vespas (although I'm going to assume that you have the skill and confidence to make it work).

A later case, or ideally a complete motor - for me - is a far far easier starting point. Parts can be sourced from pretty much anywhere, and you have choices about supplier. New designs improving Piaggio standards are being made to suit the later cases (I'm thinking Crimaz etc here). Setting up the gearbox on the VNA case to take the power is going to present some difficulties, but are not insurmountable.

I think your calendar should look like this -

- Rebuild VNA with Pinasco, finish it pretty soon.
- Ride it. Get to know it.
- Keep your eye out for a good deal on a later motor. Once you get to know Vespa people in your area, the chances of this happening improve greatly.
- Rebuild that as your really quick motor. You can fit up to (currently) a 260cc on a 150 or 200 case.

As to your other questions - no you can't use the VNA innards in a later case. Well maybe a couple of bits. Although they look very similar, early and late motors have a host of incremental changes.
Some people have had good luck with Indian cases, they made them there for years. However, I don't think that any have been manufactured there for some time now. Have a read of this as a recent example - Are these Indian LML cases any good?
LML made Vespas under licence, then started making their own design case which had a reed valve as standard and was quite good quality. They continued to make OEM parts for Piaggio until the 2000's.

Thank you Ginch, you saved me a bunch of typing. I have the Pinasco and am liking it a lot! Only thing I'd add is that if you can find a decent P200 motor it's a great replacement just essentially stock - you can even add a special old style curved kickstart lever so it looks original VNB. Add a modern box muffler for a nice power boost! I did this w/ my Sprint, motor bolts right in - you have to fiddle the wiring a bit, but you get nice bright 12 V lights.

Yep a stock 200 is a nice thing to have. But seem plentiful and fairly cheap mostly in the US, I don't imagine there's heaps in Greece? Here a running 200 motor sells for $1500-2000 ish.

Wow!
This kind of information is incredible.

I guess you all know how it is.
You get a new ride, you get excited and want to tune it.
It's a lot information everywhere, but it's difficult ti chanallize the right information for each subject.

You guys helps me out a lot.
Helpful information in a way that me, as a beginner, can understand it easily.

I will try to settle a bit.
Use my original motor with a pinasco barrel and then, after a while i will try to find a newer engine.

Is rhere anything else good to know about the iron casted pinasco cylinder?
Can i use a dremel to shape the transfer port in the engine case, or is it better to just leave it?

Chris and I put a couple of these kits into our Allstates. You can read about it here: The tale of two rebuilds - VNB2 and VNB5

I'll be putting the Pinasco on my 62 Allstate (VNB) soon. I have a VMC177 on a PX case with a VNA lever on my 59 Allstate, that engine is a monster. I don't expect the Pinasco to be as much as that one. Just a little tamer is all. The VMC on the PX case has hit 72.4mph on 8" wheels. I think the Pinasco won't get that far.

What a great story!
I am about to read everything. Has so far got to page 3.

Thank you! 😊

Wonderful! It was a lot of fun racing the two Allstates with stock engines, then upgrading both of them at the same time and learning about the subtle differences between the VNB2 vs VNB5.

Nothing better than wrenching on scooters with a friend, then riding them!

Scott did the two builds come out roughly the same in terms of power/top speed? It's interesting how little things can make a measurable difference.

Very similar!

Real world they are not very different.
We flow both carbs to the cases (24/24's)
I went with a 7 spring clutch, Chris a 6 spring.
Mine a 3 speed, his a 4 speed.

Both are identical at WOT (60+ MPH)

Bottom line is the only bike that runs faster and pops wheelies better is the one I'm riding - ha!

Very cool!

Here's my mate at a 25+ year old (vehicle, not rider!) track day on his 2 port Pinasco Super. And yes, he was passing some much bigger bikes through the corners.

A little update!

Floor board are getting welded to the frame.
Looking really good 🙂

https://files.fm/u/jw8qgd3724

Looking good!

That looks great!

I just did a floorboard replacement and it was a lot more work than I was expecting. You knocked it out like it was no big deal.