OP
UTC

Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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Location: St. Catharines, Ontario
UTC quote
Had my brain wheels tur inf a bit the other day but is there any one out there that has any experience swapping gears on a sprint veloce gear box to make it pull like a kitted px 150?

I rode a friend's GS with an lml engine, malossi 177 and a sip road 2. The thing pulled like a dozen horses.

Wondering if it can be done w a sprint veloce engine? I know I can certainly kit it, but are there any recommendations for gearing changes?

Thoughts?
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Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
^^ I have a "cheap" malossi 177 cast iron on a newer"ish" LML engine with a SR3 and it feels quick. I mean, I am doing hitting 50mph (GPS) in 9.5 sec and doing the 1/4 mile in 19.5 sec. Within the last month I have been testing a Polini 177 cast iron and a Malossi 177 (aluminum). besides that I also have a Malossi 166cc that I also been testing out all of them back to back.

The most impressive has been the Malossi 177 cast iron, mega bang for the buck. Really quick, reliable and cheap. No modifications at all, no porting, nothing. I am even running a 20/20 carb. I highly, exceptionally highly recommend the Malossi 177 cast iron, I think for the money is perhaps the best kit out there.
⚠️ Last edited by scooterist on UTC; edited 1 time
@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
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Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
scooterist wrote:
^^ I have a "cheap" malossi 177 cast iron on a newer"ish" LML engine with a SR3 and it feels quick. I mean, I am doing hitting 50mph (GPS) in 9.5 sec and doing the 1/4 mile in 19.5 sec. Within the last month I have been testing a Polini 177 cast iron and a Malossi 177 (aluminum). besides that I also have a Malossi 166cc that I also been testing out all of them back to back.

The most impressive has been the Malossi 177 cast iron, mega bang for the buck. Really quick, reliable and cheap. No modifications at all, no porting, nothing. I am even running a 20/20 carb. I highly, exceptionally highly recommend the Malossi 177 cast iron, I think for the money is perhaps the best kit out there.
@greasy125 avatar
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Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Sergeant at Arms
@greasy125 avatar
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UTC quote
you can change the full gear box out to Stella/EFL 150 specs if you wanted to.

or are you talking about keeping your primary and swapping around loose cogs?

remember that gearing plays a crucial role in tuning, keeping the motor in the power band is key so choosing the right ratios to match that and compliment the style of riding you do is key.
OP
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
Joined: UTC
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UTC quote
greasy125 wrote:
you can change the full gear box out to Stella/EFL 150 specs if you wanted to.

or are you talking about keeping your primary and swapping around loose cogs?

remember that gearing plays a crucial role in tuning, keeping the motor in the power band is key so choosing the right ratios to match that and compliment the style of riding you do is key.
Well essentially that's my question. Can I swap out the gears/primary to make that sprint engine feel more like a p125/150 engine?

And if so, what would be a good combo for primary/clutch and gear stack to maximize power (with a kit of course)
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UTC quote
Nelluch125 wrote:
Well essentially that's my question. Can I swap out the gears/primary to make that sprint engine feel more like a p125/150 engine?

And if so, what would be a good combo for primary/clutch and gear stack to maximize power (with a kit of course)
absolutely. it'll all swap over.

P125/150 ratios are very similar to sprint-- I think they all share the same 3rd & 4th, and the 1st & 2nd being super close with the exception of like the 125 Arcos having a super deep 1st. I think. maybe. it's late, I dunno.

anyway, the difference is in the primary with the p having 20/68 and the sprint having long legs at 22/67, so basically an upgear. note: *some* early p125 & 150's had 22/67 gearing.

anyway, if I was doing it, I'd just go whole hog and swap everything over to EFL spec and be done with it. stronger gearbox, more choices on better components with tuning options thrown in.

keep the sprint stuff for another build or sell it to offset part of the cost of the new bits.

ETA: forgot you asked about primary combo. I'd probably just chuck in a 21/68 or whatever, knowing that I had the options of 20~24 to put the RPMs where I wanted them. again, for the type of riding I'd be doing with the kit.
OP
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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Hooked
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UTC quote
This can work. Options are a plenty!!
Love it. Thanks greasy.
@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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UTC quote
Options will abound, as Greasy said. I loved my SprintV's stock gearing. Put a more powerful (i.e. ANY modern kit) top end on it and it'll give you plenty of power if you decide you want longer (PX or even P200) gearing.

I've run a Polini 177, a Malossi 166, and a BGM 177 (all w/ extended intake and 60mm stroke) on my Sprint's motor/gearing and they were all excellent options. The BGM & Polini give a broader power band, so less shifting than the Malossi. Great touring setup with plenty of punch for around town, too. The Malossi was more peak power, but more downshifts here in the hills.

I have that motor w/ the BGM in my VBB right now. Stock gearing and 8" conversion hub is what I used to formally claim my 60/8 creds.

Personally, I'd probably only change the gearing is if I had an EFL gearbox to put in it.
OP
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
Options will abound, as Greasy said. I loved my SprintV's stock gearing. Put a more powerful (i.e. ANY modern kit) top end on it and it'll give you plenty of power if you decide you want longer (PX or even P200) gearing.

I've run a Polini 177, a Malossi 166, and a BGM 177 (all w/ extended intake and 60mm stroke) on my Sprint's motor/gearing and they were all excellent options. The BGM & Polini give a broader power band, so less shifting than the Malossi. Great touring setup with plenty of punch for around town, too. The Malossi was more peak power, but more downshifts here in the hills.

I have that motor w/ the BGM in my VBB right now. Stock gearing and 8" conversion hub is what I used to formally claim my 60/8 creds.

Personally, I'd probably only change the gearing is if I had an EFL gearbox to put in it.
Noted!!
Thanks so much. I may be picking your brain in the near future.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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281 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
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281 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
Nelluch125 wrote:
Noted!!
Thanks so much. I may be picking your brain in the near future.
By all means!

Here's my original build thread, too, to get you started: 1976 Sprint V mechanical rebuild
OP
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
Joined: UTC
Posts: 369
Location: St. Catharines, Ontario
 
Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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UTC quote
Awesome!!!!

Exciting times. Lots that can be done. It's mostly about picking a lane and sticking to it. Hahaha
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Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
I think that we are looking at this topic from a different angle and perspective. The OP is asking to change gearing to be able to feel like his buddy LML with a malossi 177 and a SR2. Is the OP scooter stock? having compared both scooters myself stock and kitted the performance difference is abismal. The gearing by itself wouldn't make much of a difference. You will trade slightly better acceleration for less top speed or viceversa but they are completely different beast. I just don't think that the topic is being tackled based on the limited information given.

Can you do shorter gears and improve acceleration? yes, you can but still can't compared with a full kitted scooter. I am being realistic about what I am saying with proof. Best thing to do is to put a cylinder kit not the gearing but we don't know since the OP hasn't said if his/hers scooter is stockish. my .2c.
OP
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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Hooked
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UTC quote
scooterist wrote:
I think that we are looking at this topic from a different angle and perspective. The OP is asking to change gearing to be able to feel like his buddy LML with a malossi 177 and a SR2. Is the OP scooter stock? having compared both scooters myself stock and kitted the performance difference is abismal. The gearing by itself wouldn't make much of a difference. You will trade slightly better acceleration for less top speed or viceversa but they are completely different beast. I just don't think that the topic is being tackled based on the limited information given.

Can you do shorter gears and improve acceleration? yes, you can but still can't compared with a full kitted scooter. I am being realistic about what I am saying with proof. Best thing to do is to put a cylinder kit not the gearing but we don't know since the OP hasn't said if his/hers scooter is stockish. my .2c.
You're right.

My sprint veloce is stock and in pieces.

Currently planning on rebuilding.
12v ignition and possibly a kit with sr2 exhaust.

The question is, how similar is the stock veloce compare to say a stock p125/150.

Will a kit and pipe on a veloce have a similar feeling as a kitted 150?
Probably not----meaning I may have to swap out the gear box and primary/clutch combo.

Just looking for thoughts and feedback.
I'm ok with stock. But a little more ommmph is always more fun. Lol

Thanks everyone!
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Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
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Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
^^^ Right now your absolute very best option is to just slap on a Malossi 177 Cast iron cylinder. You will instantly gain 12-15 MPH with no other changes and it will transform your scooter. If you can get an exhaust later you can add it as well. I posted years ago when I slapped a Malossi 166cc, then a couple of years ago I put a Malossi 177cc cast iron and I got the same results. Two months ago I tried also a Polini 177 cast iron and also a new Aluminum Malossi 177 cc. When out and test them out. My conclusion is that just the cylinder kit alone will give you a heck of a power increase with a lot more MPH. The cylinder alone can push the rpms a good 1000-1400 rpms above the stock cylinder comfortably and that alone will give you more speed right of way. A Malossi will be able/capable of just reving higher on each gear way quicker while the stock cylinder just completely runs out of steam.

I even put the stock cylinder back on the PX150 and re-test them again. In my opinion the cylinder kit will give you a tremendous bang for the buck, the Malossi cast Iron 177cc is an absolute beast. A couple of years ago I also tested half a dozen exhaust back to back(I posted all the data and pictures), the top exhaust(exhaust box) was the SR3 (performance wise), closely followed by the Malossi and third the Polini.

A few weeks ago I went back and tested my PX150. Put the stock cylinder back in and started testing exhaust. I managed 58 mph (GPS) at 7170 rpms but it took over 35 seconds to get there, I had a 26/26 carb and a SR3, extremely slow consedering that the Sprint Veloce with the Malossi 177 gets to 50 mph in 9.5 sec and 55 mph (GPS) in 12.0 sec.
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UTC quote
I'd second (third?) the general info above.

"Throw a kit on that bitch."

A 177 - choose your flavor between malossi, Polini, pinasco, VMC- and a pipe and call it good. Get it jetted and you are set. KISS

Extra would be the 12v variable ignition if you feel like your electrics are wonky.
OP
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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UTC quote
scooterist wrote:
^^^ Right now your absolute very best option is to just slap on a Malossi 177 Cast iron cylinder. You will instantly gain 12-15 MPH with no other changes and it will transform your scooter. If you can get an exhaust later you can add it as well. I posted years ago when I slapped a Malossi 166cc, then a couple of years ago I put a Malossi 177cc cast iron and I got the same results. Two months ago I tried also a Polini 177 cast iron and also a new Aluminum Malossi 177 cc. When out and test them out. My conclusion is that just the cylinder kit alone will give you a heck of a power increase with a lot more MPH. The cylinder alone can push the rpms a good 1000-1400 rpms above the stock cylinder comfortably and that alone will give you more speed right of way. A Malossi will be able/capable of just reving higher on each gear way quicker while the stock cylinder just completely runs out of steam.

I even put the stock cylinder back on the PX150 and re-test them again. In my opinion the cylinder kit will give you a tremendous bang for the buck, the Malossi cast Iron 177cc is an absolute beast. A couple of years ago I also tested half a dozen exhaust back to back(I posted all the data and pictures), the top exhaust(exhaust box) was the SR3 (performance wise), closely followed by the Malossi and third the Polini.

A few weeks ago I went back and tested my PX150. Put the stock cylinder back in and started testing exhaust. I managed 58 mph (GPS) at 7170 rpms but it took over 35 seconds to get there, I had a 26/26 carb and a SR3, extremely slow consedering that the Sprint Veloce with the Malossi 177 gets to 50 mph in 9.5 sec and 55 mph (GPS) in 12.0 sec.
This is great!!! Thanks for this!
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, PX200 O tuned, PX181 M1XL, PX125 O tuned and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
As said Kit first. Makes the most difference right away. I'd suggest you go for one of the modern VMC 177 bolt on kits.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-cylinder-vmc-super-g-177-cc-7-travasi_84140920
For your first rodeo, this iron one is cheap but good.
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Jack221 wrote:
As said Kit first. Makes the most difference right away. I'd suggest you go for one of the modern VMC 177 bolt on kits.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-cylinder-vmc-super-g-177-cc-7-travasi_84140920
For your first rodeo, this iron one is cheap but good.
Could I run this kit with a 20/20 carb up jetted?
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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bodgemaster
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Yep
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+1

I actually had an easier time jetting my 20/20 with my 177 than the 24/24.
I eventually put the 24/24 back on the shelf for a future project and am very happily scootin' around on the 20/20 set up.
OP
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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Hooked
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Location: St. Catharines, Ontario
UTC quote
Truth be told: I really loved ripping around on my px125e with a 180 kit and my upjetted 20mm carb. Ran better than it did with a 24mm.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, PX200 O tuned, PX181 M1XL, PX125 O tuned and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
Nelluch125 wrote:
Could I run this kit with a 20/20 carb up jetted?
Yep

And any exhaust you like
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Molto Verboso
'13 LML Star 200, '81 50 Special, '81 P 150 X, '87 PK 50 Nuova, '84 PK 50 S
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
My vote for VMC that Jack mentioned.
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2005 Stellalossi 177 Fe
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UTC quote
If it's going to be cast iron, I highly recommend the Malossi. Made in Italy to a high standard of finish. The VMC Super G is designed in Italy, but made somewhere in the Far East, and it shows. The only—and I do mean the only—issue with the Malossi is it does not lend itself to being built as a 187. If you are going to keep your existing crank and build a 177 anyway, the Malossi is the clear choice.
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Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
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Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
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71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
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UTC quote
On February 12 2024 I received the two cylinder kits that I ordered. One was a Polini 177 cast Iron and the other was the newest Aluminum 177 kit from Malossi. Not a fair comparison at all but here is how I describe both:

Polini. Absolutely cheap built. I was shocked that even after so many years they haven't got their stuff together to create a cast iron cylinder with the cut on the fins to avoid hitting the flywheel gear.
No jetting included. No gasket between the cylinder kit to engine case and no gasket between cylinder head and cylinder.
Cylinder head weighted 651 gr. Cylinder weighted 3532 gr and the piston weighted 180 grams. The exhaust spigot inner diameter was only 29mm in diameter(inner diameter). The cylinder head chamber felt like it was molded with sand paper course grid.

In summary, I was deeply disappointed with the quality/finish. I wholeheartedly think that they could have done better but obviously they don't give a damn. This is my second Polini 177cc, I had one on an Orange Stella 12 years ago and I was satisfied with the torque. The kit is still reasonable cheap but in my semi-expert-enthusiast opinion it doesn't hold a candle again its equivalent and rival Malossi(cast iron). I will not buy or endorse another Polini cast iron kit as long as they keep building them with such mediocre finish.

Now.. The Malossi 177 aluminum kit(sport with 2 piston rings). It is so beautifully made. The piston weighted only 160gr(Polini 180gr) , the cylinder weighted 1410gr(Polini cast iron was 3532gr) and the cylinder head was 917 gr
and to my surprise that is 265gr heavier than the Polini but the Malossi has many more fins and they are way taller. The exhaust port(spigot) was 33.85mm(Polini was 29.0mm).

The Aluminum malossi 177 kit came with 3 set of engine base to cylinder gaskets and cylinder head gaskets. The casting on the cylinder came ready to install (no cutting required for the flywheel). The finish was astonishing, CNC cut and smooth like a glass on the cylinder head.

Would I recommend Malossi again? Hell yeah, totally worth it. Malossi 177 Aluminum kit is well made worth its price(in my opinion). For the price difference between the cast iron poling and the Aluminum sport Malossi 177cc(newest model with 2 piston rings) I recommend the Malossi. You get much higher quality right out of the box. This kit also came with two set of jets.
@scooterist avatar
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Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1614
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
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Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
More onto my other current cylinder kits. My Malossi 166 cast iron has been bulletproof. I had it now for 12 years and I put a little over 4000 miles. Not a lot but I have gone to my places most of the times accelerating at full tootle. The compression is great, the piston rings are holding well (I will post pictures later). No complaints. It is a "older design" but it still gets up to speed quite well. This is a cylinder kit that reported me an additional 12-14 mPH extra on the top end. I paid $269 back in 2012 from scooter west and it has been a great investment.

Now my Malossi 177 cast iron(I put this one 2 years ago). It is a beast, I reach full speed very fast, doing the 1/4 mile in 19.5 seconds. The acceleration is great. The kit came with the cylinder head gasket and is mounted on a LML non injected engine on my sprint Veloce. I purchased this kit silly cheap for $249 and it has been a game changer performance wise. Easily 15 mph extra on the top speed as tested on my GPS. Dramatic improvement on acceleration, best money spent performance wise by far. I have it mated to a Malossi box currently but I alternate it with a SR3. I posted a review a couple of years ago with pictures.
OP
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
Joined: UTC
Posts: 369
Location: St. Catharines, Ontario
 
Hooked
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Location: St. Catharines, Ontario
UTC quote
Thanks so much for your replies.
Great information and food for thought.

Much appreciated as always.
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