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Wow, this thread has sure brought out some lengthy reflections and attempts to understand economics over time. Like many of you, my mind is anchored in the past (for better or worst). I divide everything by 10 to relate back to what things cost in 1966 when I finished High School.

I am still positive and believe that hard work and capitalism is beneficial for those who will embrace it. I did miss the drug scene and understand it had horrible consequences for many.

I completed my Masters Degree at Boston University in business with an emphasis on international economics. This does not mean I have anymore wisdom than any of you good people - relating your life experiences. It does mean that government policy demonstratively impacts everything beyond the normal 2% inflation.

So far, we seem to be fairing better than other countries. So keep the faith and we may get 3% mortgage rates back.

Bob Copeland
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As the child of immigrants who travelled across oceans on boats, the "housing isn't affordable" discussion always amazes me.

Housing is affordable... in the places that the masses don't want to live.

People say the same thing about property in Canada. It's "not affordable" than they point out that you can buy an old castle in Europe for the same price as my house in Toronto.

Sure, but there's a house in Newfoundland that would be perfect for raising a family of four for 1/10th of what my place costs. But nobody wants to live there. I don't blame them. But if that's what I had to do for my family to prosper I would rather do that than stay somewhere I can't afford to prosper and complain.

"No one should have to move to be able to afford to exist!"
^ Literally the funniest thing you could say to someone who came from immigration. If we can do it, you can do it. Suck it up. Do the work.

"But there aren't any jobs out there!"
So make one. I'm self employed with both online and offline revenue, from businesses I started by myself. If I can do it, you can do it. Suck it up. Do the work.
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^^^ Agreed - you can't keep a good man (or woman) down. They will find a way while others will sit and moan about how life isn't fair.
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adri wrote:
Housing is affordable... in the places that the masses don't want to live.
assuming that there is work available in that area and cost of living in that area and average income in that area etc are comparable ...
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I've been retired for 9 yrs now. Since I was young a long time ago- I've seen things and services go really crazy w/ costs. ( Hell I remember when gas was 19 cents a gallon !) Good thing I've always done my own maintenance and repairs. Being on a fixed income now……Wonder if I should try to get a "go fund me " site , you know for expensive scooter parts and such…..Lol…( joking)!
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I just want to inteject I own a few Vespa scooters. Not to change the subject but the rest of this Bullshit does not belong here. I dont come here to get depressed I come here to be uplifted and have a conversation about our love of Vespa's
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Good news. My bars of Ivory soap are increasing in size since the 2021 shrinkflation.
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One thing to remember as a young person, and I probably didn't have a good grasp on this either, is that building wealth takes time. Most everyone struggles when they are young. You are entry level with little experience. It's the low end of the ladder. It's also the way things have always been. But if you keep chiseling away at things, it gets better.

Perspective is important. Don't judge your life and circumstances based on social media and advertising. There's a current ad out that starts with a girl on a bicycle in the snow. She improves her credit score and buys a POS car. She continues to improve her credit score and is shown driving into the desert in a Land Rover. And she's still in her early twenties. Great, but all they are really telling you is she has accrued massive debt. There's another commercial with a very young woman traveling the world. I swear, they show her in eleventy different places, talk about airport discounts and make it all seem wonderful, but fail to mention the crushing debt that follows. Don't be fooled.

When you start out you will not replace the home you grew up in with an equal home. You know, the one your parents spent years paying for and furnishing. They probably had it tough, too. But put your resources to work where they benefit you the most. I use cars as an example all the time. We bought our house in 2004. In 2005 I sold my car payment and bought a car for cash. That car payment money went into the house payment. The car wasn't new or pretty, but it was reliable. I have never since had a car payment for a daily driver. And it took us 17 years paying extra on our mortgage to pay off the house. It was hard work. But it can be done.

I have heard before that happiness is not a destination, it is the result of a grateful heart. If you spend all your time wishing for more, you'll never appreciate what you already have.
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seamus26 wrote:
I use cars as an example all the time. We bought our house in 2004. In 2005 I sold my car payment and bought a car for cash.
I haven't paid penny one to the banks since I paid off a van loan early in 2005.
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And another thing (says the old man still shaking his fists at the sky) what is it with younger people and the need for "a career that is fulfilling and validating"? Work is work. It's a means to an end. My job / career pays my bills so I can enjoy my life outside of work. They call it work because it's work. If it were called "Happy fun time that makes you feel good and we have a ball pit and a juice bar" everyone would be doing it. But it isn't.

When I meet someone new and we are getting to know one another, I never lead with what I do for work. Nobody cares about that. I tell them I play guitar and like to rollerblade and we talk about cars and riding and all the other things I / we enjoy. Those are the things that define you, not your job. Nobody cares that I've been a CMM Programmer for the last 33 years. I do that all day long and really don't care if it comes up outside of work.

Look around and find work that's going to meet your material needs. There are lots of skilled trades out there that pay a whole lot better than struggling to be an internet influencer. Factory work is work, but it pays the bills. Sometimes very well, and there's room for advancement.

If I were to use myself as an example (because it's the only example I've got), when I got out of school all of the positions for "rock star" were filled. So I got into automotive work, worked my way into a lab position (that I had to suffer six years of second shift with) but it's been a good career.

But why am I saying this? We're all old in here. We all know this stuff already, but were old an irrelevant.
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SteelBytes wrote:
assuming that there is work available in that area and cost of living in that area and average income in that area etc are comparable ...
See last paragraph of my post
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Outsider wrote:
I just want to inteject I own a few Vespa scooters. Not to change the subject but the rest of this Bullshit does not belong here. I dont come here to get depressed I come here to be uplifted and have a conversation about our love of Vespa's
Attention everyone enjoying this conversation:

Stop immediately.
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seamus26 wrote:
And another thing (says the old man still shaking his fists at the sky) what is it with younger people and the need for "a career that is fulfilling and validating"? Work is work. It's a means to an end. My job / career pays my bills so I can enjoy my life outside of work. They call it work because it's work. If it were called "Happy fun time that makes you feel good and we have a ball pit and a juice bar" everyone would be doing it. But it isn't.

Having spent decades doing a very well paid job that I hate, for exactly the reasons you've listed, I told my children to consider that option carefully. I made my choice, I've done well by it, and I don't regret it. But I'm not sure there are a lot of people of any generation who could face decades at a job they loathe. I can say confidently it's not easy.

Darling Bride on the other hand, chose a career in Volunteer Services. She has worked in hospitals and charities being the person that recruits, trains, places and manages those who volunteer their time. She absolutely finds it to be 'fulfilling and validating'. She comes home confident that her efforts make our corner of the world a better place. Until recently (with a very significant promotion) she made a lot less money than I did. She also had a much easier time going to work in the morning.

Would she have been as happy had she not been married to, and reaped the financial benefits of, someone who made the choices I did? Impossible to say, but I held both of those examples up to our children as valid options, and advised them to carefully balance the financial rewards of their work with how much satisfaction they expect to take from that work. One of them seems inclined to follow my path, the other will likely wind up closer to his mother's. Both are valid choices, as long as they've gone in cognizant of the long term implications of their decisions.
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UTC quote
adri wrote:
Attention everyone enjoying this conversation:

Stop immediately.
I don't enjoy this conversation one little bit, but I don't let it define me. It just pays the bills.
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UTC quote
DiBiasio wrote:
It's my understanding that the cost of things is MEANT to increase over time, just at a more gradual pace. Once costs go up they never really come back down. Consider rent. Deflation is supposed to be an indicator of larger economic troubles that wind up resulting in labor market issues.
(...)
Deflation is highly not desired. It means prices go down if you wait and not buy today. If we all do that it is devastating for the economy.
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UTC quote
Bob Copeland wrote:
Wow, this thread has sure brought out some lengthy reflections and attempts to understand economics over time. Like many of you, my mind is anchored in the past (for better or worst). I divide everything by 10 to relate back to what things cost in 1966 when I finished High School.
(...)
In 2002 here in Belgium the Euro has been introduced, before that we had the Belgian Franc (BEF). It took me a short while to adjust and find new Euro reference points.

But older people, such as my parents in law, kept on calculating prices back to Belgian Francs even upto today.
Back in 2002 1 Euro was 40 BEF.

My father in law can tell me things like:"Everything has become so expensive today. A bread now costs 100BEF!" In his reference it should be 20BEF something.
I have been telling him many times to forget the BEF, it is long gone. Did not help.
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Outsider wrote:
I just want to inteject I own a few Vespa scooters. Not to change the subject but the rest of this Bullshit does not belong here. I dont come here to get depressed I come here to be uplifted and have a conversation about our love of Vespa's
It's too bad that we are forced to read these "Bullshit" threads in order to visit MV.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could just choose the threads that interest us and skip the rest?

Jess?

(BTW, Isn't it interesting that people say things like "not to change the subject" when they are doing just that?)
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seamus26 wrote:
And another thing (says the old man still shaking his fists at the sky) what is it with younger people and the need for "a career that is fulfilling and validating"? Work is work. It's a means to an end. My job / career pays my bills so I can enjoy my life outside of work. They call it work because it's work. If it were called "Happy fun time that makes you feel good and we have a ball pit and a juice bar" everyone would be doing it. But it isn't.
As I've reported elsewhere on MV I've been lucky enough to have had two careers that, while certainly "work", have been engaging, challenging, fulfilling, meaningful, and have added to the general good of society.

Coming up on age 76, I am still engaged in the second one.

I think that there is ample room for both choices.
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PeterCC wrote:
Deflation is highly not desired. It means prices go down if you wait and not buy today. If we all do that it is devastating for the economy.
Agreed. And I read somewhere that consumer spending represented 68% of the US GDP in 2023.
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DiBiasio wrote:
Agreed. And I read somewhere that consumer spending represented 68% of the US GDP in 2023.
If 50% of the U.S. population were as frugal as me, there'd be a 40% unemployment rate. Cause and affect. No Starbucks, convenience stores, etc.
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breaknwind wrote:
If 50% of the U.S. population were as frugal as me, there'd be a 40% unemployment rate. Cause and affect. No Starbucks, convenience stores, etc.
I myself only ride my Vespa to town for life-sustaining supplies: cornmeal and gun powder and hamhocks and guitar strings.
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Tierney wrote:
The government intervention idea will come to nothing. I worked in construction (plastering) for 47 years. I made more money by the hour back in 1991 than I did when I retired at the end of 2023. I was a sixth generation plasterer, but I did not want my son going into it even when he expressed an interest. So believe me, it isn't the wages that is driving the prices up and government sure as hell won't be able to control it anymore than it can control the price of gas. Every generation views the generation afterwards as having it easy and being spoiled. The newer generation thinks the same of the older generation. Either way is still comes down to how hard you want to work. I could not buy a house in my day as I could not get a loan. I had a decent job, was single but had no credit history. At the time the interest rate was 12% and it climbed to 18% within a year or two. So I bought some land and built my own. I lived in trailer on the property and spent the next 5 years building it nights and weekends. When I moved in and I had a bed, a dresser and a couple of bean bags chairs. Most of my friends at the time could not get a house either, but over time, most did when they got married and had 2 incomes. So some stuff hasn't changed. If you want it bad enough, are willing to work for it and accept something less than your perfect home, you can get it. I raised my kids to think this way and 2 out of the 4 own their own house and my third is buying soon. None of them were fancy but in good neighbor hoods. All needed work, but we all got together and fixed them up. Interest rates have risen, but anything under 8% is still great, better than in my day. From the way I see it, money was so cheap to borrow for so long, and at first you could get more house for the same monthly payment. Then when the money stayed cheap, the house prices rose to balance that out. Eventually that low interest rate went away and the prices stayed up. In high demand areas like where I live it takes a little longer to sell, but usually under a month.
It figures you would be from Tega Cay, LOL. On the Lake, bitching about your plight. Widen your view. "My house just takes longer to sell, so the housing market is fine. Just be patient." Do you realize how comical that sounds?
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Bob Copeland wrote:
Wow, this thread has sure brought out some lengthy reflections and attempts to understand economics over time. Like many of you, my mind is anchored in the past (for better or worst). I divide everything by 10 to relate back to what things cost in 1966 when I finished High School.

I am still positive and believe that hard work and capitalism is beneficial for those who will embrace it. I did miss the drug scene and understand it had horrible consequences for many.

I completed my Masters Degree at Boston University in business with an emphasis on international economics. This does not mean I have anymore wisdom than any of you good people - relating your life experiences. It does mean that government policy demonstratively impacts everything beyond the normal 2% inflation.

So far, we seem to be fairing better than other countries. So keep the faith and we may get 3% mortgage rates back.

Bob Copeland
I love it! You're a terrier! I have a BU hoodie that a girl gave me. I cherish it!

Here is the problem: Your generation was afforded many benefits that mine and especially those younger were not, and no amount of, "They just aren't working hard enough", will fix it. It's a problem.
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OBX Dude wrote:
It figures you would be from Tega Cay, LOL. On the Lake, bitching about your plight. Widen your view. "My house just takes longer to sell, so the housing market is fine. Just be patient." Do you realize how comical that sounds?
First: You made up this quote. I only mentioned that it is taking a little longer to sell a house now then it did, say, 2 years ago when money was cheaper to borrow. And I was not bitchin', just making an observation. The market will adjust - if the demand goes down and the interest rates go up, prices will go down. Also, I don't live on the lake, I bought my house to get my kids in a good school district in 2006 and spent the next 6 months working on it with my family after work and weekends fixing it up enough to move my family into. It was a rental and torn up. In the process I added two rooms and a full bathroom in the basement, otherwise it would have been to small for our family of six. Bottom line - you want something and are willing to work hard enough, you can get it. Nobody gave us anything, we all worked for it as a family. I'm sorry you can't see it that way.
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UTC quote
theayn wrote:
Having spent decades doing a very well paid job that I hate, for exactly the reasons you've listed, I told my children to consider that option carefully. I made my choice, I've done well by it, and I don't regret it. But I'm not sure there are a lot of people of any generation who could face decades at a job they loathe. I can say confidently it's not easy.

Darling Bride on the other hand, chose a career in Volunteer Services. She has worked in hospitals and charities being the person that recruits, trains, places and manages those who volunteer their time. She absolutely finds it to be 'fulfilling and validating'. She comes home confident that her efforts make our corner of the world a better place. Until recently (with a very significant promotion) she made a lot less money than I did. She also had a much easier time going to work in the morning.

Would she have been as happy had she not been married to, and reaped the financial benefits of, someone who made the choices I did? Impossible to say, but I held both of those examples up to our children as valid options, and advised them to carefully balance the financial rewards of their work with how much satisfaction they expect to take from that work. One of them seems inclined to follow my path, the other will likely wind up closer to his mother's. Both are valid choices, as long as they've gone in cognizant of the long term implications of their decisions.
TLDR: Marry rich, have fun.
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