Modern Vespa

Are there any modern scooters with gear or shaft drive? Or are they all CVT?

By that, I take it you mean modern shifties?

I am happy to consider all options, shifties or otherwise.

Okay, but it's not clear what you're after. Can you elaborate a bit about what you're asking?

CVT vs non-CVT is generally about automatic verses manual transmission. You mention "gear or shaft drive", which sounds like you're asking for a manual shift scooter, in a roundabout way.

But all of this might be moot. Aside from some Indian-made oddities that are only modern because they were made in the 21st century, I don't know of any modern scooters that aren't some variation of CVT.

I'm sure someone will step in and remind me of something I overlooked, though.

Then there are the electric scooters, which might qualify as direct or gear drive, but I don't know much about these.

I remember read something some weeks ago, and find it

Maybe something that can meet a manual gearbox and have some as a scooter inspiration is the Italjet Dragster GP500?

https://www.bikesrepublic.com/english/archive/the-italjet-dragster-gp500-coming-in-2024

Something like the 1980s Yamaha T80 Townmate scooter. That was shaft drive. I only see shafts in bigger motorbikes these days such as the Moto Guzzi v85tt. Does anyone know of anything modern with shaft drive?

No thats chain drive. Something like the 1980s Yamaha T80 Townmate scooter. That was shaft drive. I only see shafts in bigger motorbikes these days such as the Moto Guzzi v85tt. Does anyone know of anything modern with shaft drive?

Do you consider the Honda NC700 Integra a scooter? It has a geared transmission with 2 hydraulic clutches and a chain final drive.

Moto Guzzi and BMW motorcycles, some Honda, Yamaha and Kawasaki models. Does Suzuki still make a shaft drive motorcycle? They used to.
There is absolutely no economic incentive for a manufacturer to do anything on small models other than a variator, clutch and bell setup. They are proven, cheap, and easy to service. Most of the manufacturers use the same, or similar transmission components, and often they source them from the same subcontractors. Economies of scale.

The venerable Honda Cub is a modern shiftie. Whether it is a scooter, a motorcycle, both, or neither, is a topic of debate. Shaft, belt, or chain drive? I think chain.

I'm not sure if this is relevant to the OP, but the Suzuki Burgman 650 has this for a final drive where the Vespa (and almost everything else) has a belt.

Also, whether it is a scooter or not is a matter of some debate.

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There is actually a geared final drive on modern Vespas -- the clutch output shaft drives a gear cluster that then drives the rear axle.
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It's a boat! A very comfy one though.

I often wish I still had one, an amazing bike, and would be a great solo tourer.

X100!

A lot of motorcycles actually have a belt final drive. The modern Vespa isn't one of them. The belt on a modern Vespa is pure transmission (CVT).

IIRC the Yamaha TMax 550 has a CVT at the engine but a belt final drive? That to me looks like the best combination of user-friendly (auto) with suspension unaffected by a weighty engine/transmission.

My old Honda 600 used a CVT similar in concept ad placement to a Vespa but the CVT case was part of a genuine swingarm and pivoted off the engine cases, so the engine never moves in the frame. I thought that was an elegant design compromise.

There's no shortage of current shaft-driven motorcycles e.g. all BMW flat twins, new liquid-cooled Guzzis, and they are attractive for low maintenance and reliability but they come with a hefty weight and cost penalty compared to chains.

Modern chains are pretty amazing, or maybe I'm just more diligent about tension and lubrication, but my Yamaha MT-10 is still on the original chain, sprockets (and brake pads) at 43000km and don't appear to need changing any time soon.

Drifting towards off-topic, but food for though at least:

-I'll second the fact that modern chains are simply amazing. I have a torque-rich 1200cc bike and the chain just refuses to need any tensioning after the first service. It's not any super-duper fancy chain either, just the OEM chain.

-I do spray some lubricant to it....and that's about it. Actual cleaning only once a year, even then with a brush only. Old skool chain folks roll in their graves, but when this minimum work seems to keep things rolling, I'm happy with it.

....that was the off-topic part, not trying to convert anyone, just making an observation.

Closer to the topic - the latest generation bikers are actually many semi-automatic bikers. Why? Because all 'serious' new bikes have a quick-shifter either as a standard feature or as an accessory. Clutch is used for the take off and landing, the rest is clutchless I don't mind clutch myself, but also happily use quick-shifter in rental bikes.

On what models and years?

Do you know anything smaller that has this geared final drive?

People say this, but it still won't outlive a shaft. One friend with a BMW shaft bike has done over 150k miles on the same shaft. There are still little T80 townmates going toway on the same shaft, nearly 40 years on.

Yes you loose some fuel economy / efficiency, but its a small price to pay.

Do you mean physically smaller, or smaller engined?

No, other than my own Vespa GTS 300 and a handful of Suzuki 650 Burgmans, I have pretty much zero scooter experience to draw from, but there's many here that do.

That depends on perspective. There is no comparison of a shaft to a CVT belt. Many shaft bikes are still using the same shaft 150k miles and 40 years on. Give me one example of one CVT belt that could last 40 years!

The Vespa GTS 300 does not have a geared drive does it?

Also what year of 650 Burgman was your picture from?

All modern Vespas have a CVT transmission. I'm not sure about the electric ones. If you are looking for a gear drive, you would need to find a manual shift Vespa. The Honda Super Cub is chain drive, has manual shift with a centrifugal clutch and four gears. Yes, BMWs and other shaft driven scoots can last a long time, but there is still some maintenance involved. Chains can last over 30k miles if you buy a quality one to begin with and take care of it. Belts on many motorcycles can last twice that with even less maintenance than a shaft drive and can run smoother than a chain with the bonus of taking up the shock of uneven strokes like on a Harley.

The final drive is geared as Jess already mentioned. The Burgman 650 is a good machine until the tranny starts going south. But I have seen many with 60k plus miles on them going strong. The Burgman 400 is a bulletproof machine.

Wow, that gear train with THREE idler gears is solely to avoid the use of a belt or chain?

Is it better? Seems like a lot of unnecessary spinning, grinding metal. More of a German design, not Japanese.

Aren't CVTs American?

Heh.

A quick google sugests they're Italian.

Every modern Vespa in existence has a geared final drive. The arrangement is:

Crankshaft -> Variator -> Belt -> Clutch -> geared final drive -> Rear axle.

All Modern Vespas have a geared final drive in the rear hub as Jess observed. Of course, even a shaft drive uses a gear set to actually drive the rear wheel. And as caschnd1 commented, the CVT belt on a Vespa is an integral part of the transmission, not a drive belt.

Many maxiscooters have an engine that is too large for a swing arm mounted engine design. This is especially true of twin cylinder engines such as the T-Max. While the 650 Burgman uses a gear set as a final drive as discussed above, most maxiscooters in this class use a drive belt (which is separate from a CVT transmission).

Yes, chain - all the way from the early Honda 50s to the current Cub 125.

Here is the parts diagram of the GTS300ie drive gear.

Someone else needs to answer your first question, I can get in trouble on the details of power transfer in scooters.

It's a generic image I snooped off of the Internet, so what year model it's from isn't known, but it doesn't matter, as every 650 Burgman uses this transfer system regardless of model year. If Suzuki made any significant changes in this drive system for the 650 I am unaware of it.

From personal experience, confirming the above. ^^^

Do you think the OP was asking if there is a CVT that does not require a 6,500 mile belt change? NO shift but with a drive shaft or chain?

I have shared with this forum the story of my 208,000 mi shitty old Dodge Caliber - sealed CVT with original steel belt…. Sold it by the way. Off to a new home and more CVT miles….

Chris from CLE

But first patented in 1886 by Mercedes-Benz.

I do not remember MB ever using CVT's on their cars.

A famous brand for its CVT transmission at least here in Europe, is DAF. A Dutch constructor that introduced its first car with CVT in 1958.

http://www.dafownersclub.co.uk/brief-history-of-daf-cars.html

In fact the cars had a double CVT, 1 for each rear wheel. Each unit very much alike what is found today in almost all scooters.

DAF had reasonable success with its cars for many years, although driving a DAF was considered a clear sign you were not able to drive a real car.

One of the funny things with the DAF is that, tweeked a bit, it did run as fast backwards as forwards. In the Netherlands in the seventies and the eighties there were backward races with DAF's.
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In the car world, one of the recent 'heavy series' CVTs from engineering viewpoint was probably Audi's multitronic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multitronic

I've had one - silky smooth when in proper working order, never had smoother automatic car gearbox in my life.

Contrary to Toyota/Lexus CVT, that tends to make the revs quite high when accelerating, especially the older ones, Audi was a master of using the low end torque and low revs. A true limousine experience in smootness.

...that said, they are not manufactured anymore and can't recommend for anyone buying those things as second hand cars. It is rare to have an old one without any issues.