Modern Vespa

I picked this up for, what I felt was cheap enough.
New tires, battery, included variable belt and some seals, etc.
It runs nicely but has a water leak.
While I wanted an older model, this came up. I have other Italian motorcycles and some Japanese also, but after having a Yamaha Riva, and making a few trips to Italy, I longed for a Vespa.
The problem could be a water pump seal, Head gasket, cylinder, case? I don't know yet.
The metal was 'freshened up' with '#120 paper and a rattle can' in some places.
JB weld was used in others.
It's complete, save the side stand. All electrics work.
It's not terrible. It's a decent "20 footer". (Looks great from 20 feet)
I realize there's no such thing as a "free (or cheap)" boat, car, motorcycle. I like tinkering and enjoy projects so this will do.
I'll add details as I get going.
1) drain the oil (cappuccino?) and water and flush the engine. I'll flush a couple times with fresh oil.
1a) Find a service manual.
2) while the engine interior is soaking in fresh oil, I'm going to thoroughly clean and disassemble the metal bits.
2a) I'm anticipating having to change a head gasket and hope it's not a cracked cylinder, case, whatever.
3) Properly repair the other repair work. The PO tried and did the best he could. Nice, honest guy also. He was just over his head in mechanical, and admitted it.. to himself.

Someone banged both sides of this thing. But thankfully, it's metal!
After I figure out how to get the body off.. I'll fix that.
PO tried to repair one of them.
Got water pump parts on order from scooterwest.
Trying to fix the broken skirt clips next.

Sounds like a good project!

The body is a single piece metal construction, so those side panels don't come off.

That helps. Thanks!

You may be ahead by pulling the motor and taking off the head to check the rockers and cam for damage.

Hi, well, I'm curious where this liquid leak is....

So am I and after I get the body off and pull the water pump, I'll have a better idea.
I imagine I'll heed the previous advice and open the head.

Ive not forgotten to post updates.
I fell upon a Malaguti that appeared an easier repair than the GTS, so the GTS is patiently waiting.
The Malaguti is challenging me with its carb tuning.
As soon as I resolve that, I'm diving into the Vespa.
I've gotten a pile of small repair parts from scooterwest though.
And, for fun, last week I took this bike to a show in Monterey.

I ain't fergotten.
Life and a Malaguti..are distracting me.
(Sounds like a book or a movie: Life with a Malaguti..starring Gina Lollobrigida and Fabio.)

I've got a bag of water pump parts from Robot, but I don't have the focus to disassemble 2 scooters at the same time.

If anyone has any expertise with the Minarelli 50 or Gurtner carbs.. I would love to hear from you.
It runs..for 2 or so minutes…the. dies. I've cleaned the carb, changed and added new fuel.
I have questions but nobody to pose them to.

But I'm dying to get this GTS rolling.
Thanks.

Ok.. back to the GTS.
I got the Malaguti ripping, with some help.. input.. encouragement..parts from az_slynch and scooterwest.
Ive got all the parts to open the waterpump and drive belt on the GTS250!
Here i go!

Malaguti is done.
Now, the GTS water pump…
New bearings, seals and shaft, a la scooterwest.
I was in final assembly… the video says just tap the spring loaded seal into place.
Oookkkkkaaayyy… except it fell apart.
I found a local place that has those seals. I snagged another one and tried again.
Same damned result. I dropped off the pump cover and will pay them a small "knucklehead tax" to press in the seal for me.
I expect to complete assembly Wednesday.
Meanwhile, I'm still looking at everything else and will try to pop out the dents.
To be continued.

Update:
I have too many 2-wheelers and other aspects of life arise.
But the GTS: i replaced the waterpump seal and bearings and ultimately found a generous scooterphile that simply traded me a new cover, etc.. for my old one with all new parts.
After assembling, and feeling optimistical, i ran it around the block… came back… same darned cappuccino!
So new gaskets, seals, etc, from the block up. And i hope something isnt cracked
Pulling the motor and all that aint a snap. There's always one more cable or wire or..something..
So the GTS sits, for now.
I've got a couple other easier projects I'm knocking out in the meantime.
I'm not quitting though.

Long time no post but anyway, I did the water pump seal and bearing job on my junked GTS250, it took three oil changes to get rid of all of the coolant from the oil. I just did the 1K oil change after the job and the 1K oil came out looking brand new. You probably don't need to rebuild the whole engine. Try a couple of cheap oil changes.

Oh damn!
I've got the rear mostly loose, but I feel I want to be optimistic using your experience.
I'm going to reassemble it and see what happens.
Thanks for the details and the update.

Feeling bolstered and optimistic by mr72, today i wriggled the wheel/engine back into place.
The pivot bolt was tricky by myself.
However, the exhaust head pipe isnt clearing the bend in the frame.

It's as if the engine is too far forward, but how can that be if the pivot bolt is in place?
I'm opening a super Tuscan now and will look tomorrow.

Ok.. not being one to give in, completely, i pulled the engine again.. waited a couple days, looked at a Robot guide and got back to it.
Any idea why the header doesnt clear the frame?
The pivot spacer is in… the pivot bolt is in, the shocks are loosely attached.
I'm leery of just ham-fisting it.

I see now.
For the next person. Because I did not know…
The header pipe can spin and the collar locks it onto head. I thought it was a solid piece.
Haynes book and even Robot's vids didn't mention that.. I couldnt find it anyway.
I removed the engine.. AGAIN.. and unbolted that collar.
Here I go again…

..some might say.."while you have the engine out, pull the top off."
Yep...BUT...I'm enjoying the learning process.
R/R the engine, wheel, etc. I'm getting good at it..yeah, a dubious claim, but I'm learning.
az_slynch had reminded me that these jobs are just for "me"...I'm thinking someone else might benefit from my struggles.

Feeling emboldened and encouraged by mr72, I'll re-assemble it all, change the oil and water..check for the cappuccino again, and decide then.

Keep at it!

(I wanted to reply to your earlier posts, but honestly couldn't understand what you were asking from the photos posted )

berto thanks.
I didn't know what I was dealing with.
"How can I ask for a platypus if I don't know what it is?"
But I got it now!
The piece off the head spins under the collar. I thought it was a single piece.
At the risk of boring the experts here, I'll keep learning and documenting.
Someone may benefit!
And, as jess pointed out "I'm not Robot"

There have been many things Robot has posted that look easy as cupcake but turn out are quite difficult or impossible for mere mortals, at least in my experience. And I'm not exactly some beginner.

The hotplate tip for getting the water pump bearing to come out was genius though.

So. My daughter had a 2011 Fiat 500 Sport, 5 speed. It had what Mopar/FCA considered a common problem, but not worthy of a recall or TSB: the rear engine seal leaked, right against the flywheel. So it leaked oil right out of the bell housing. It was like 1qt/1K miles leaking. I thought that was bad. Then the clutch went belly up so I decided while I was replacing the clutch, I'd go ahead and replace that leaky seal. I got the "updated" seal from Mopar, which was a ridiculous design. I followed the instructions to a T, including putting some kind of nutty grid pattern of Permatex on it because, you know, it's an idiotic design. Then put the whole car together, whole clutch and seal job took probably 20 hrs.

BTW this was not my first, second or third clutch replacement. I've probably done clutches a dozen times in various cars. Last time before this one was a ground up restoration of my Miata which included replacing the engine block with a high-comp later model engine. So when I say this was a goofy design, it's not because it's the first time I've done a rear engine seal. Probably the 10th different one I have done.

Once I got the car back on the road, it leaked about 1 qt every tank of gas. Enough that it coated the rear bumper with a thin sheet of oil all of the time. It was outrageous. Only leaked when it was running, but it was awful.

OK one more quick story. My other daughter's first car was a '96 Subaru Legacy GT. It definitely had a blown head gasket. It got exhaust in the coolant, but never coolant in the oil or any signs of poor compression. Just smelly coolant and occasional need top top up. It would have been a very big job to replace the head gaskets, and the Subie community told me this was a lost cause, design flaw results in early failure. I left it alone. Car ran great. I actually regret selling it. It'll probably run forever with that little leak.

I tell you these stories mostly to say: if you are not 100% sure the head gasket is leaking, IMHO, LEAVE IT ALONE! These Italians don't do things the way we might expect them to, and even if you've done a half dozen top end rebuilds this one might not wind up the way you expect. Unless you have evidence of leaking head gasket, just leave it. Odds are the water pump (a truly terrible, goofy design) is the cause of your problem, so do that and rule it out as the only cause. I went through exactly this same procedure and with fresh WP seal and bearing my GTS is a delight and dead solid reliable. I had originally planned to pull the engine and do the head gasket "just in case" and boy am I glad I didn't.

Thanks for the boost! And the little Fiat sounds like fun, actually!

But I'm with you.
I'm Waiting for battery to charge up… add oil and water and bleed… should be rolling by Thursday eve.
I'll do the top end if it really needs it. I do enjoy learning so I ain't a scared of this one no more!

Frederico at a local shop suggested… leave the body as it is and ride it.

Ok… getting there.
Fresh oil and coolant.. and bleed.
Warmed it up… check oil… still fresh and clean!
BUT… clutch or something back there is rattling at idle. It goes away on throttling up.
I'll investigate that next.
But, so far mr72 , it seems heeding your suggestion was a good one!

Right on! IDK if you read my thread but I had lots more problems to sort out on mine. I did two oil changes after the WP job at 100 mile increments to get the residual coolant out of the oil. Third oil change I ran 1K miles and just changed it a couple of weeks ago, it looked brand new.

Oddly enough just yesterday my GTS was for the first time not perfectly reliable, it was hard starting and required a bit of throttle to start up. So I guess I'm back in fix-it mode.

The rattle could be exhaust heat shield or something minor. You'll probably find a half dozen things to tweak once you get it rolling.

EDIT: I just took a grocery store trip on my post-salvage GTS. It also has some kind of rattle from the rear end when at idle but only when it's idling after running above idle, and once the bike stops it stops rattling. If I had to guess, I think this has probably been doing this for a year and I just kind of ignored it.

Thanks for the continued encouragement.
Yes, i saw your GTS blog.. good stuff.
This eve… warmed it up.. went 100', then died.. suddenly. Like a vapor lock or a hydro-lock!
Pushed it back..waited 5-10.. it starts.
Not sure what's up. Im sitting still… staring at it.. contemplating.
I have a good friend in Pflugerville. I'll have him buy you a beer down on 6th.
🙂

evap crap and venting fuel tank. do the evap removal per the wiki.

Yessir.
Cleaned, primed injector..vented fuel, bled coolant.
Will Follow up soon.
I'm not happy, but it's ok.
I'm fortunate to have a few bikes, a roof, a garage, healthy kids and grandkids.
The Vespa is not critical.
Details soon. Thank you.

Ok….
I took it to a local shop….
"We think you have a trashed engine… maybe just piston and rod… maybe needs a crank and bearings, but engine needs to come out, cylinder pulled"

Oh well… the saga continues.
At least it's no longer leaking water into the crankcase!
🤪

I'm calling shenanigans on the shop. They've likely never opened one of these engines before, based on their response. The bearings for the crank are babbit-style and integral to the engine case.

What symptoms led you to take it to said shop?

Hi Sean… thanks for chiming in.
I got it running.. no oil/water mix. I drained it twice, on mr72 suggestion. Clean.
I Pressure-cleaned the injector.
It started… makes some rattle until off-idle..im told thats normal.
It runs then shuts off.
After a few minutes, same symptoms.
I just unloaded it…have not tried it yet and I have not removed spark plug yet… to crank it without that resistance.

I just grew weary of reaching into rabbit holes, not knowing if there's a snake. I want to ride it.

Sorry.. didn't reply to this suggestion.
Looking in the wiki.. it references carby model. My '07 GTS is injection. Did i possibly miss a writeup on those?

Is the check engine light on?

When it shuts off, dies it idle down and stumble before dying, or does it act like you hit the kill switch?

If you roll throttle, does it rev normally or is it boggy?

Evap applies to the FI Vespas as well. Not sure that's your issue, but it can cause problems. Simple check, leave the cas cap off and fire up the scoot. See if it does after a few minutes.

When you pull the plug, it might be worth using a cheapie borescope to peek inside the cylinder. This is worth having in the toolbox: DEPSTech Inspection Camera.

I use mine to take pics or video. You can use the forward-facing or side-facing camera, or both concurrently. Uses a micro-SD card, so media is easy to move to a PC.

Just back up from garage..
No check engine light
Pulled plug, it's black, but not wet and engine spins without rattle. The battery is a little low so I'll trickle it overnight and resume in the morning.
But the last it ran, for me, it started then died as if it was fuel starved… i think.…hmmm…
And it would bog, on throttle-up.
Injector was firing, on the bench, and fuel line was spraying.
And i'll order that tool.
Thanks.

Did you happen the check the intake manifold for cracks? It's a pain to do, but it was a major factor in a friend's issue where it was stall-prone.

Is the immobilizer LED on? FWIW if the immobilizer is not working, then it will start, the LED will stay lit, and it'll run for about two minutes until it dies. It'll refuse to rev above about 2K rpm during that 2 min. This allows you to do basic diagnostics but not actually ride the scooter if you don't have an immobilizer key.

Ok… back to the GTS. I've had some personal distractions, even moto-mechanics couldn't assuage. Lotsa 'wind therapy' though, on my Concours!

GTS:
Turn on key.. all lights glow.. the oil light and engine lights glow briefly, then shut off.
Cranking doesn't elicit any 'codes'.
The oil level is near the top on the stick, when bike is on center stand. (And I was told the red key isn't necessary to start it, but now i question even that.)

Pulled plug. It spins fast and pops my finger off without spark plug.
I'll use a comp gauge today.
The plug makes strong spark, with plug removed and grounded
When i put in the plug, it barely spins, but the 'rattle' isnt present. Hmmm.

I have the bore scope. Bore looks ok.. it still has, what appears to be original scoring… i dont see any scrapes or marring on piston crown..that could suggest ring or oil damage, i guess.
Drained and refreshed fuel with fresh e-free.
The fuel pump sprays to and through the injector, out the return side.
Although a shop 'bench tested' and cleaned the injector, i have not verified that it sprays when installed on the bike.
Im testing electricals today.. chasing down that avenue.
I looked inside the intake side and the valves actuate when cranking.
(The borescope is actually a fun tool, for $60!)

The flooded battery, is full and sits at 13.4 vdc .. static.

So, i've tested the basic ingredients to combustion…spark, i'm inferring air flow and believe fuel flows to the injector. I'll squirt some into the plug hole also.

But, my coffee cup is empty.. so, i gotta fix that and its hot here in DC are again today so i may go find a spot near Harper's Ferry and sit in the river. 🙂
Thanks for your patience and support.