OP
@meltshow avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
1981 P80X
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
Location: Solano County, CA
 
Enthusiast
@meltshow avatar
1981 P80X
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
Location: Solano County, CA
UTC quote
Hello hello!

I've been riding my DR 177-equipped P80X all over Solano County this past couple of years. It's been freaking fantastic! However, I ride in a land packed with people driving too fast and impatiently on country roads. It happily cruises around 45, but I feel I need more speed if I am to escape this highway-locked little hamlet alive.

Here's the deal: I've got a set of P200 engine cases, with a stock crank, gears, and cylinder. The clutch is toast, and the cylinder head has had half its fins broken off. Bearings are roached. All those bits are just sitting there, wishing they were an engine.

If you had ~$800 to burn on this, what would you put in?

PS---While I can hit ~60mph with the DR kit, that's on a flat grade with the wind at my back and the engine just screaming. I just want to be able to hop on and off state highways where traffic is moving around 55-60 mph without pegging the engine.
Obligatory P80X pic
Obligatory P80X pic
@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1553
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1553
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
Been there done that a few times (literally), not only on the fast traffic but also I have done a P200 engine into a Sprint Veloce and to the PX150. There are some good and some bad and here is why. The good of the P200E engine with its tall gearing is obviously the relaxed RPMs but a 150cc kitted with a Malossi would smoke the stock P200E engine any day.
You can try to do a Clutch cog on your current set-up, try a 22 teeth and you should be able to cruise at 60 mph and higher without any issues. The indirect problem of putting the P200E engine with its tall gear is the 4th. The rpm drop between third and 4th is abismal. It feels good on the first 3 gears until you shift to 4th and you fall under the power band at certain speeds/rpms and it just doesn't have the power nor the torque keep pushing it.

You have to really think about the type of riding that you will be doing. How often do you go out there on fast traffic and how fast you go and how fast you want to be. My own P200E with the Malossi 210 or the spare P200E also with the malossi 210 and P200E gearing on the PX150 and the sprint Veloce acted the same way, both would fall flat on their faces in 4th gear and the solution would be going above 65 mph(closer to 70MPH GPS) to start feeling the power again. So many people on this forum that don't even have a GPS that you can not take their word for it because the speedometer of the Vespas are so far off and that 10-11 mph margin of speed error means a world of difference.

In summary. I can go from 0 to top speed on my kitted 150cc scooters(Sprint Veloce of PX150) before you click your eyes but I absolutely ca not say the same thing on my P200E with the Malossi, that 4th gear kills it!!! while the 150 kitted will hit red line fast on all gears. My vote goes for a 22 teeth clutch cog for now, it will cost you like $85 , you change it in 1 hour and go and see if you like it.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4568
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4568
Location: London UK
UTC quote
meltshow wrote:
Hello hello!

I've been riding my DR 177-equipped P80X all over Solano County this past couple of years. It's been freaking fantastic! However, I ride in a land packed with people driving too fast and impatiently on country roads. It happily cruises around 45, but I feel I need more speed if I am to escape this highway-locked little hamlet alive.

Here's the deal: I've got a set of P200 engine cases, with a stock crank, gears, and cylinder. The clutch is toast, and the cylinder head has had half its fins broken off. Bearings are roached. All those bits are just sitting there, wishing they were an engine.

If you had ~$800 to burn on this, what would you put in?

PS---While I can hit ~60mph with the DR kit, that's on a flat grade with the wind at my back and the engine just screaming. I just want to be able to hop on and off state highways where traffic is moving around 55-60 mph without pegging the engine.
Just spend the money on the 80 engine. New cylinder, crank and exhaust and it will be quicker than any 200.
OP
@meltshow avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
1981 P80X
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
Location: Solano County, CA
 
Enthusiast
@meltshow avatar
1981 P80X
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
Location: Solano County, CA
UTC quote
I like what I'm hearing, fellas.

I have already put some money into the P80X engine, on account of it being essentially hobbled from the factory. When I was a lost and wayward soul in the darkness of 2022, I set about hammering back those deficits WITH MONEY. Apart from the DR177 kit, it's got a Mazzucchelli crank to increase stroke from factory 48mm to 57mm, and because they have a bonkers gearing ratio from the factory, a 23/64 primary gear Malossi kit. Carb is also swapped to a 24.24E and it's rocking a SIP exhaust (replacing the cracked/coked OG unit). It's like a fever took me in those days.

It still sort of pulls like a tractor in first and second gear — it's…unique. I wish you guys could feel how it is to ride. Typing this all out though…it's my gearbox holding me back, isn't it?
Gears and more gears
Gears and more gears
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4568
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4568
Location: London UK
UTC quote
meltshow wrote:
I like what I'm hearing, fellas.

I have already put some money into the P80X engine, on account of it being essentially hobbled from the factory. When I was a lost and wayward soul in the darkness of 2022, I set about hammering back those deficits WITH MONEY. Apart from the DR177 kit, it's got a Mazzucchelli crank to increase stroke from factory 48mm to 57mm, and because they have a bonkers gearing ratio from the factory, a 23/64 primary gear Malossi kit. Carb is also swapped to a 24.24E and it's rocking a SIP exhaust (replacing the cracked/coked OG unit). It's like a fever took me in those days.

It still sort of pulls like a tractor in first and second gear — it's…unique. I wish you guys could feel how it is to ride. Typing this all out though…it's my gearbox holding me back, isn't it?
No. Your gearing now is almost the same an EFL PX150. If you had a kit that would do 8000rpm it would be plenty fast enough.
OP
@meltshow avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
1981 P80X
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
Location: Solano County, CA
 
Enthusiast
@meltshow avatar
1981 P80X
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
Location: Solano County, CA
UTC quote
What does a kit capable of 8000 rpm look like?

I'm getting a little over 90 psi after a dozen kicks with a compression tester. Seems low, yeah? I had a hard seize a couple of years ago and only did a bit of cleaning up of the cylinder after addressing the underlying cause. Might want to take a look there before I do anything.
UTC

parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5224
 
parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5224
UTC quote
meltshow wrote:
What does a kit capable of 8000 rpm look like?

I'm getting a little over 90 psi after a dozen kicks with a compression tester. Seems low, yeah? I had a hard seize a couple of years ago and only did a bit of cleaning up of the cylinder after addressing the underlying cause. Might want to take a look there before I do anything.
perform a "wet test" and see if your compression bumps back up. If so, then you might need a hone and new rings or even possibly a rebore along with a new piston. And if you need to bore and get a new piston on a DR kit, then you might as well buy a new kit from a different manufacture.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4568
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4568
Location: London UK
UTC quote
meltshow wrote:
What does a kit capable of 8000 rpm look like?

I'm getting a little over 90 psi after a dozen kicks with a compression tester. Seems low, yeah? I had a hard seize a couple of years ago and only did a bit of cleaning up of the cylinder after addressing the underlying cause. Might want to take a look there before I do anything.
Would expect 9000 from this kit!
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-cylinder-malossi-mhr-177-cc-3118102_31181020
There are so many 177 kits now but this one is the fastest bolt on.
@gummy8879 avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
2009 Stella, 2001 Honda Helix
Joined: UTC
Posts: 85
Location: Memphis, TN
 
Enthusiast
@gummy8879 avatar
2009 Stella, 2001 Honda Helix
Joined: UTC
Posts: 85
Location: Memphis, TN
UTC quote
For a "daily rider" build I would personally stick with twin ring pistons. Twin ring kits last longer and are overall better for street riding. Longer ring life, added piston stability, and lower chances of melting the piston to the cyl if you mess up on jetting. More rings = more piston cooling as theres more contact points to the cyl for heat transfer.


I have a VMC Super G 177cc kit and it is one of the better and more modern entry tier kits. The DR177 has very lazy porting VS almost all of the other 177 kits on the market. Check out the VMC Stelvio as well!

You might want to try a T5 4th gear as well. It is 1 tooth shorter and puts the powerband in a better spot especially with a higher revving kit+pipe and a tall primary reduction like the 23/64 we both have.
OP
@meltshow avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
1981 P80X
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
Location: Solano County, CA
 
Enthusiast
@meltshow avatar
1981 P80X
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
Location: Solano County, CA
UTC quote
Oh wow these are all great looking! I'll need to find a set of 125 engined cases though to use them. The P80X engine cases have a narrower opening to accept a cylinder. I had to choose between what SIP had on offer: the DR kit, a Polini jug https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-cylinder-polini-177-cc-by-sip_10060000?usrc=cylinder, or this pricey Quattrini kit https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-cylinder-quattrini-m1x-millemiglia-11-172-cc-by-sip_10080000?usrc=cylinder

125 engine cases, or pay to have something turned to fit in P80X cases.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4568
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4568
Location: London UK
UTC quote
gummy8879 wrote:
For a "daily rider" build I would personally stick with twin ring pistons. Twin ring kits last longer and are overall better for street riding. Longer ring life, added piston stability, and lower chances of melting the piston to the cyl if you mess up on jetting. More rings = more piston cooling as theres more contact points to the cyl for heat transfer.
I often hear this about single ring pistons. And you're mostly correct for the wrong reasons. Twin rings work better at lower revs, single better at higher. At higher rpms the crown is mostly cooled directly to the head.
Single ring can often last longer than twin, as the single ring has oil on both sides of it, whereas twin only have oil on one side, with the space between only having a tiny amount of oil that has leaked past the top ring.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4568
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4568
Location: London UK
UTC quote
meltshow wrote:
Oh wow these are all great looking! I'll need to find a set of 125 engined cases though to use them. The P80X engine cases have a narrower opening to accept a cylinder. I had to choose between what SIP had on offer: the DR kit, a Polini jug https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-cylinder-polini-177-cc-by-sip_10060000?usrc=cylinder, or this pricey Quattrini kit https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-cylinder-quattrini-m1x-millemiglia-11-172-cc-by-sip_10080000?usrc=cylinder

125 engine cases, or pay to have something turned to fit in P80X cases.
Difficult with the px80 cases. Could slightly tune the DR kit and fit a GS piston. That works. Would get you up to 7000 rpm for sure.
@gickspeed avatar
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Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2110
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Ossessionato
@gickspeed avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2110
Location: Racing Capital of the World
UTC quote
meltshow wrote:
Oh wow these are all great looking! I'll need to find a set of 125 engined cases though to use them. The P80X engine cases have a narrower opening to accept a cylinder. I had to choose between what SIP had on offer: the DR kit, a Polini jug https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-cylinder-polini-177-cc-by-sip_10060000?usrc=cylinder, or this pricey Quattrini kit https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-cylinder-quattrini-m1x-millemiglia-11-172-cc-by-sip_10080000?usrc=cylinder

125 engine cases, or pay to have something turned to fit in P80X cases.
i've machined Rally180 cases to fit any large block cylinder, so these P80x cases should be no problem to machine to fit any small block cylinder. two other options are to find a set of p125 cases or spend the money on a set of Malossi PX150 cases.
OP
@meltshow avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
1981 P80X
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
Location: Solano County, CA
 
Enthusiast
@meltshow avatar
1981 P80X
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
Location: Solano County, CA
UTC quote
GickSpeed wrote:
i've machined Rally180 cases to fit any large block cylinder, so these P80x cases should be no problem to machine to fit any small block cylinder. two other options are to find a set of p125 cases or spend the money on a set of Malossi PX150 cases.
Or I have these perfectly good P200X cases here.
@gickspeed avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2110
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Ossessionato
@gickspeed avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2110
Location: Racing Capital of the World
UTC quote
meltshow wrote:
Or I have these perfectly good P200X cases here.
P200e or PX200 ? either way, those would work.
OP
@meltshow avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
1981 P80X
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
Location: Solano County, CA
 
Enthusiast
@meltshow avatar
1981 P80X
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
Location: Solano County, CA
UTC quote
P200e, yah, thanks.

I have almost a whole P125X go fast engine, sans cases and a new cylinder. The world is not raining used engine cases, though?

I could build this P200e engine and continue to ride the P80X in the meantime. What does a slightly goosed P200e engine look like? I know need a muffler and the usual bearings/seals/clutch at the very least.

Or I just keep going with the P80X kit 'til it really gives up the ghost. I yearn to escape this suburban bubble, though.
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3128
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3128
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
I'm not familiar with the PX80, but if it can be reworked to use one of the fast small block kits available, you could certainly make it fast enough for 2 lane state highways. It would likely have quicker acceleration than a bone stock 200. Since you already have some experience with tuning, working with what you have could be a good option. Because I haven't been very successful in building a tuned small block, a stock with a little more 200 would tend to get my vote.

I like the 200 engine a lot for the kind of 2 lane state highway riding you are describing. Even bone stock, it will easily handle it without a fuss. The gap between 3rd and 4th is absolutely a thing. The stock 4th kind of feels like an overdrive gear. You really have to wind out 3rd to keep the party going in 4th. There is always the option of a short 4th, which apparently helps a lot and is something I may end up trying. The zippy fun quickness of the 177/187 is something I miss with the 200. If the 187 I am working on ends up working out, my opinion might change.
OP
@meltshow avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
1981 P80X
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
Location: Solano County, CA
 
Enthusiast
@meltshow avatar
1981 P80X
Joined: UTC
Posts: 68
Location: Solano County, CA
UTC quote
whodatschrome wrote:
perform a "wet test" and see if your compression bumps back up. If so, then you might need a hone and new rings or even possibly a rebore along with a new piston. And if you need to bore and get a new piston on a DR kit, then you might as well buy a new kit from a different manufacture.
A wet test just now on the DR cylinder boosted compression up to 115 psi, which is not a shock. Time to ponder.

I quite like how this setup performs. It's just that final top end speed that's not ideal for the environment I ride in.
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