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@ginch avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
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UTC quote
I came across this post on FB today by a German guy calling himself Savage Scooters, does a lot of dyno stuff (seriously, does every German scooterist have a dyno in their back shed?).

I was intrigued by the very high number on the main. Someone on the post suggested the output at the rear wheel for this cylinder is normally around the 10hp mark.
Savage Scooters wrote:
Ok, Challenge accepted!

200 original engine with 12hp SCOOTER CENTER BGM kit and big box touring.
What can you do there, was the question. Then I sat down and tried to play the thing properly. Only carburetor voting should be done.
Everything else original, no further tuning, nothing milled..
plug and play

That just under 15 hp bike power with just under 20NM come out - I wouldn't have bet on that.
But. Look at this. At 5500 umin, the party is of course over, as far as performance is concerned. But now you can reach real 100kmh GPS.... The tacho says a lot more thenšŸ¤£

The test drive was very very convincing in the end!

So you see: even original engines can do more than the original castration.
One more request: the HD has become over 30 numbers larger than the "Internet Recommendation".
With that, tuning engines on the internet. - you can do it - then it's shit.


https://www.scooter-center.com/en/cylinder-kit-bgm-original-200-cc-12hp-vespa-rally-200-vse1t-p200e-vsx1t-px200-px200e-px200e-elestart-px200e-gs-cosa-200-vdr1t-vsr1t-motovespa-200ds-200dn-tx200-200-iris-clx200-cosa-9020017

So... apart from the Big Box being the least suitable exhaust (I would have thought), what are your thoughts on just jetting and exhaust to gain 50% more power?
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@ray8 avatar
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Ginch wrote:
I came across this post on FB today by a German guy calling himself Savage Scooters, does a lot of dyno stuff (seriously, does every German scooterist have a dyno in their back shed?).

I was intrigued by the very high number on the main. Someone on the post suggested the output at the rear wheel for this cylinder is normally around the 10hp mark.

So... apart from the Big Box being the least suitable exhaust (I would have thought), what are your thoughts on just jetting and exhaust to gain 50% more power?
Guess math:
According to the description, 13-14 wheel hp with a 60mm crank.
+1.something for big air and fuel (Vesptec air box and venturi).

He doesn't post his final jetting, unfortunately. His secret
@kowalski avatar
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2005 Stellalossi 177 Fe
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@kowalski avatar
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UTC quote
That graph would be more interesting if it charted the rpm data. Don't see the point of charting speed on a scooter that is not actually moving.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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UTC quote
Kowalski wrote:
That graph would be more interesting if it charted the rpm data. Don't see the point of charting speed on a scooter that is not actually moving.
If we cared, we could assume gearing and calculate the RPM's, but a 200 that won't even hit 60 MPH with a long stroke crank and an "improved" top end is pretty unimpressive, full stop.

Like, "Oooh...you hit peak power at 43 MPH! Be still my heart!"

I watch Savage Scooters' videos from time to time, as much to continue trying to resurrect my German as anything, and he sees some pretty good stuff, but also some pretty meh stuff. But in some ways, I think that's the point.

And there's a lot more you can do when O-Tuning that just the top end. The intake is where a lot of the limits on stock motors kick in, because they're all designed to be super fuel-efficient, not max power, and that bottleneck starts at the intake.
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Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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UTC quote
I am pretty comfortable saying it.

You cannot get 50% improvement just by changing your exhaust and upjetting.

Ray's talking 60mm cranks but that wouldn't be allowed in this case. Also not allowed would be porting. It can't happen.
@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
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Lucky
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UTC quote
sdjohn wrote:
I am pretty comfortable saying it.

You cannot get 50% improvement just by changing your exhaust and upjetting.
I 100% agree with this. Especially not when you're talking about going from 9 HP to 14 HP.

I thought he had put the BGM 200 top end on, which I think has improved ports versus stuck. I guess I need to go back and pay closer attention.
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
If we cared, we could assume gearing and calculate the RPM's, but a 200 that won't even hit 60 MPH with a long stroke crank and an "improved" top end is pretty unimpressive, full stop.

Like, "Oooh...you hit peak power at 43 MPH! Be still my heart!"

I watch Savage Scooters' videos from time to time, as much to continue trying to resurrect my German as anything, and he sees some pretty good stuff, but also some pretty meh stuff. But in some ways, I think that's the point.

And there's a lot more you can do when O-Tuning that just the top end. The intake is where a lot of the limits on stock motors kick in, because they're all designed to be super fuel-efficient, not max power, and that bottleneck starts at the intake.
The rpm is measured. The speed is calculated. The 60 mph is so lame it makes me question the formula being used.
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UTC quote
Maybe the speed is calculated based on 3rd gear. Then the 60 mph starts to make sense. On the road, this setup couldn't do 8050 rpm in 4th anyway.
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Lucky
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Lucky
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UTC quote
Kowalski wrote:
Maybe the speed is calculated based on 3rd gear. Then the 60 mph starts to make sense. On the road, this setup couldn't do 8050 rpm in 4th anyway.
Perhaps. Yet another reason to show dyno's with RPM's and not speed.
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Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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Ossessionato
@safis avatar
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UTC quote
From the setups I see on GSF, Germans like BIG jetsā€¦
@sdjohn avatar
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Johnny Two Tone
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Johnny Two Tone
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UTC quote
richer than 12:1 and you're just pissing it out the exhaust
OP
@ginch avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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@ginch avatar
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
I 100% agree with this. Especially not when you're talking about going from 9 HP to 14 HP.

I thought he had put the BGM 200 top end on, which I think has improved ports versus stuck. I guess I need to go back and pay closer attention.
So, somebody in that thread said that the cylinder used (the BGM 200 linked in my first post) generally made 10hp at the rear wheel in his experience. So yes it may have improved porting but that's not the point.

I also agree with John, if you simply chucked on a big box and upped the main to what, 145? It would run like crap. Doubt it would even rev out enough to piss out the exhaust!
I suppose if you ran a very lean air corrector then the 145 might work, but I'm doubtful.

As to the 100kmh... if it can't do 100 on the dyno, how would it does it do 100 on the road?
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
This is a discussion about a stock+ 200 that does nearly 62mph.
Every one I've ridden does 62mph (flat, no wind)? Are dynos not Ā±25% accuracy at best.
Never seen a Savage Scooter video that is better than meh.
OP
@ginch avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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@ginch avatar
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UTC quote
Jack221 wrote:
This is a discussion about a stock+ 200 that does nearly 62mph.
Every one I've ridden does 62mph (flat, no wind)? Are dynos not Ā±25% accuracy at best.
Never seen a Savage Scooter video that is better than meh.
Correct. What's your feeling about the jetting question though? 30 points up?
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
Ginch wrote:
Correct. What's your feeling about the jetting question though? 30 points up?
On a bone stock, new, just run in 200, with the original AC160, the best can up jet to near 130 without touching anything. However, if you haven't drilled the carb; a main jet any bigger than 130, is almost pointless.
The stock jetting is adjusted for emissions regulations and economy. Not to make it run well or go fast. Ironically, not all factory new engines are equal and the best ones often go the worst, until individually re jetted.
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
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UTC quote
I'm with Jack. Making a bone stock P200 go 60mph shouldn't require anything more than twisting the throttle.
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Lucky
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Lucky
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UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
I'm with Jack. Making a bone stock P200 go 60mph shouldn't require anything more than twisting the throttle.
Having ridden one at WOT for about 50 total miles at ROM this year, I concur. 59 uphill, 61-62 downhill on GPS. And that was with my fat ass on top.
@sdjohn avatar
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Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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Johnny Two Tone
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UTC quote
I believe the 60 mph. I do not believe the 50% more power.
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Ossessionato
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
Is it worth going with a 12 HP cylinder if you are replacing the top end? I was thinking the SIP Serie pro (with the GS piston) would be a good choice.

I have a 10 HP cylinder that needs to be bored oversized, which doesn't cost much where I live and a spare piston for it. Would be good to have on the shelf.

I never hit 60 on my 10HP 200, but close (57) without trying. Felt like it would be good for an easy 62.
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parallelogramerist
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
I'm with Jack. Making a bone stock P200 go 60mph shouldn't require anything more than twisting the throttle.
...twisting to 3/4 throttle that is.
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parallelogramerist
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
With the influx of all the youtube influenzers out there trying to make a buck, many of them will create false content in order to gather as many click baits as possible. I see this as no different.
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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whodatschrome wrote:
With the influx of all the youtube influenzers out there trying to make a buck, many of them will create false content in order to gather as many click baits as possible. I see this as no different.
This isn't false content. He's a promoter for sure, but this isn't fake.

He says this is PNP, but he doesn't add that this has to be with the recommended BGM crank. Still PNP no other tuning.

He and many on the GSF use huge mj's with a big airbox cover no filter.

Plus 1.something hp at most with the big mj, big ac, big air box and that twisty venturi.
So plus 10%
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