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Amidst the flurry of Genuine news (Stella: really, actually, truly back; new Buddy colors) was this little tidbit posted in the comments on [url=http://2strokebuzz.com/index.php/?p=3823]2StrokeBuzz[/url]. I don't know the poster, but hear he's "in the know."
Quote:
John Gerber Says:
November 29th, 2007 at 10:45pm
Several months ago LML announced a couple of things that are likely to radically affect the U.S. scooter market. In December they are supposedly coming out with a four stroke scooter. More than likely it will be a ET clone which they got the tooling for from Piaggio before the breakup. Later in 2008 they are going to be coming out with a couple of other four stroke scooters. In all probabliity, these will be geared scooters which they had announced they were going to produce before the bankruptcy. This seems to be the niche they have decided on. I find it interesting that Scootering magazine is now implying that Piaggio is going to come out with a geared four stroke Vespa to replace the PX. Only a year ago at the factory in Italy Massimo Mirosi, head of European operations and number 3 in the Piaggio hierachy, told me that there probably would not be a geared four stroke Vespa. What a difference a year makes. Clearly they don't want to be outflanked by LML.
The ET clone may be interesting, but I wonder what kind of engine it would have. LEADER clone? Variation of the Honda GY-6 that's in a lot of Asian automatics?
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Definitely very interesting stuff.. The Bajaj Chetak has always been a 4-stoke manual, but having ridden one, I'd say the power is less than a p125. If they made a 200, that would be great! Even so, I'm sure there would eventually be kits for them, ESPECIALLY if Piaggio picked up on that! A new, 50 state manual Vespa, or even Stella, would be something I would definitely be interested in!
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why don't they just make a metal px 150, put an auto transmission in it, and be done with it? it would sell 10 billion units.
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drewteague wrote:
Definitely very interesting stuff.. The Bajaj Chetak has always been a 4-stoke manual, but having ridden one, I'd say the power is less than a p125. If they made a 200, that would be great! Even so, I'm sure there would eventually be kits for them, ESPECIALLY if Piaggio picked up on that! A new, 50 state manual Vespa, or even Stella, would be something I would definitely be interested in!
There have been a lot of Stella skeptics giving a multitude of half-informed contradictory reasons for why the Stella will never be available in CA. I'm less than half informed but still optimistic that we'll see one next year. In fact, I just wrote Genuine to get their official response. We shall see.
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chad wrote:
why don't they just make a metal px 150, put an auto transmission in it, and be done with it? it would sell 10 billion units.
Emissions. The regs are getting stricter worldwide. Even Taiwan now requires direct-injection carbs-which could actually lead to cleaner 2-strokes.
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new et...
Sounds like the new Stella is a manual transmission with a two stroke engine. Smog legal in 49 states but not in California. Two strokes of any kind will find it difficult, if not impossible, to stay in the California market. Some municipalities may be even more restrictive than the state on two stroke devices (pollution and/or noise).
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chad wrote:
why don't they just make a metal px 150, put an auto transmission in it, and be done with it? it would sell 10 billion units.
I doubt it. The less than insightful general public find it difficult to give up underseat storage for a more comfortable and versatile riding position. And few would go head over heels for the look of the PX with an automatic transmission when compared to the LX/ET line. Also, it's not so easy to stuff an automatic transmission into the space where a manual vespa engine would go. They are wide where automatic engines aren't and narrow where the auto engine needs it to be wide. The engine length from motor mount to rear wheel is longer on a modern engine. I think people like to think this would be a good idea but the engineering changes would require it to come out looking something like the LX or a Velocifero. Now if you'd say, 'someone bring back the Velo' with a better engine and a disc brake up front' I'd say that's a better idea.
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Re: new et...
davep12b wrote:
Sounds like the new Stella is a manual transmission with a two stroke engine. Smog legal in 49 states but not in California. Two strokes of any kind will find it difficult, if not impossible, to stay in the California market. Some municipalities may be even more restrictive than the state on two stroke devices (pollution and/or noise).
Well, we don't know that the new Stella isn't legal in California (or, rather, won't be). Genuine hasn't said and my dealer's being uncharacteristically tight-lipped. But from what I'd previously heard, only minor changes were necessary to bring the Stella to CA and ScooterScoop reports that the new Stella is cleaner. So it may just be a matter of submitting it for testing again and seeing if the new Stella passes sate requirements.
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ericalm wrote:
chad wrote:
why don't they just make a metal px 150, put an auto transmission in it, and be done with it? it would sell 10 billion units.
Emissions. The regs are getting stricter worldwide. Even Taiwan now requires direct-injection carbs-which could actually lead to cleaner 2-strokes.
IIRC, under the current guidelines, all 50 states have adopted CARB analogous restrictions, so that any 2008 2 stroke legal in the other 49 would meet California regs. I'm trying to find the link, but I'm either imagining it, or I'm wrong.
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epa laws changed to match CARB so if it's EPA complient then it should be CARB complient too, right? EPA laws are changing again 1/1/09 so from what i'm hearing 2 stroke stellas are only going to be here a year then bye bye or some new type of engine.

an auto engine in a px body wouldn't sell well, a manual 4 stroke 200 cc engine would be sweet.
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gah, i would love it if they find a way to get a 200cc engine in the stella body...that way i can update my stella when my current engine acts up

keep it manual and you will have a big market seller...

could they make a manual 200cc four stroke that would fit in the stella body?

if so, sign me up

g
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dru_ wrote:
ericalm wrote:
chad wrote:
why don't they just make a metal px 150, put an auto transmission in it, and be done with it? it would sell 10 billion units.
Emissions. The regs are getting stricter worldwide. Even Taiwan now requires direct-injection carbs-which could actually lead to cleaner 2-strokes.
IIRC, under the current guidelines, all 50 states have adopted CARB analogous restrictions, so that any 2008 2 stroke legal in the other 49 would meet California regs. I'm trying to find the link, but I'm either imagining it, or I'm wrong.
No, I think you're right, which is why I don't get why so many people have said it's impossible. There may be a couple other small CA issues-things that could be easily fixed.

Genuine is really weird about this stuff, though. They do their best to stimulate rumors, news always leaks out first, and by the time they make an official announcement, it's well-known. They get more "free" marketing that way, I guess. They've run ads welcoming the Stella back without actually having officially announced that it's back to anyone other than dealers. Nuts!
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as for 50 states...well maybe cali is just being smart...maybe they know that the first thing that happens with a stella is the exhaust comes off and a sito+ or other pipe goes on...

genuine can make the stella pass emissions for cali in testing, but maybe they know that what genuine shows them is not what is ridden on the roads

g
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thegelding wrote:
as for 50 states...well maybe cali is just being smart...maybe they know that the first thing that happens with a stella is the exhaust comes off and a sito+ or other pipe goes on...

genuine can make the stella pass emissions for cali in testing, but maybe they know that what genuine shows them is not what is ridden on the roads
Yeah, but regulators cannot refuse to pass a vehicle based on what might be done to it after purchase or its potential to be converted into something non-compliant. The streets of CA have all kinds of modified vehicles on them that are likely in violation of a number of state vehicle codes. That problem falls in the hands of enforcement.

I'm surprised no one's that excited about the prospect of ET clones (henceforth called the ET-Faux). Sure, most of us probably wouldn't buy one but it would certainly create some interesting competition for the LX and LXS.
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i'm excited about et clones because now i will finally have someone to make fun of at rallies. 'look at that dude with a fake indian et, he can't hang with us real et people.' it will rock.
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thegelding wrote:
gah, i would love it if they find a way to get a 200cc engine in the stella body...
This is already common. I've seen a bunch of stellas converted to 200cc
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thegelding wrote:
keep it manual and you will have a big market seller...

If the market for the manual shift scooter was big, piaggio and honda would still be making them. It's not all that big so they don't. It's there but it's small. It's only saving grace is that it's persistent.
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Re: New ET Clones? 4 Stroke Shifters?
Quote:
... I find it interesting that Scootering magazine is now implying that Piaggio is going to come out with a geared four stroke Vespa to replace the PX....
It would have to be an injected engine to meet emission requirements. That would make throttle response seamless at low rpms and a shifter scooter great fun to ride. Thinking ahead, putting a pipe on a geared 4-stroke engine would certainly have more audio flavor than the transit bus drone from the piped CVT scoots.
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Re: New ET Clones? 4 Stroke Shifters?
Pacnwfoto wrote:
Quote:
... I find it interesting that Scootering magazine is now implying that Piaggio is going to come out with a geared four stroke Vespa to replace the PX....
It would have to be an injected engine to meet emission requirements.
Why? The Stella isn't injected...
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Re: New ET Clones? 4 Stroke Shifters?
Quote:
... It would have to be an injected engine to meet emission requirements.........

Why? The Stella isn't injected...
Have you ridden a Stella? Is it seamless?

I doubt Vespa would produce a new machine with an off-idle acceleration sag which would be the case with a carbureted engine meeting EPA low rpm emission requirements. The high-rpm engagement characteristics of the CVT mask the lean sag in the carbureted LX and GT. If they were shifters with a clutch engaging the transmission lower in the rev range, the carb would need an airscrew tweak and needle shim to run smoothly.
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Re: New ET Clones? 4 Stroke Shifters?
Pacnwfoto wrote:
Quote:
... It would have to be an injected engine to meet emission requirements.........

Why? The Stella isn't injected...
Have you ridden a Stella? Is it seamless?

I doubt Vespa would produce a new machine with an off-idle acceleration sag which would be the case with a carbureted engine meeting EPA low rpm emission requirements. The high-rpm engagement characteristics of the CVT mask the lean sag in the carbureted LX and GT. If they were shifters with a clutch engaging the transmission lower in the rev range, the carb would need an airscrew tweak and needle shim to run smoothly.
I guess I was hoping for more of a layman's explanation, ha.
I do plan on riding a Stella, though, given the opportunity.

From what I've heard from other knowledgeable people, direct-injection is the way to go. Apparently, it's already becoming popular overseas.

Regardless, I'd jump at the chance to own a good-performing new shifter-2-stroke, 4-stroke, whatever.
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Re: New ET Clones? 4 Stroke Shifters?
ericalm wrote:
I'd jump at the chance to own a good-performing new shifter-2-stroke, 4-stroke, whatever.
Me, too. A 4-stroke shifter Vespa would have a huge grin factor. It might even attract more motorcycle riders.
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Re: New ET Clones? 4 Stroke Shifters?
Pacnwfoto wrote:
ericalm wrote:
I'd jump at the chance to own a good-performing new shifter-2-stroke, 4-stroke, whatever.
Me, too. A 4-stroke shifter Vespa would have a huge grin factor. It might even attract more motorcycle riders.
bajaj? anyone...<crickets>...anyone?
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ericalm wrote:
chad wrote:
why don't they just make a metal px 150, put an auto transmission in it, and be done with it? it would sell 10 billion units.
Emissions. The regs are getting stricter worldwide. Even Taiwan now requires direct-injection carbs-which could actually lead to cleaner 2-strokes.
I predict that a mechanical direct fuel injection system kit will be available, as a aftermarket, for the bigger 2 stroke Vespa. Think about it, cleaner, more efficent, better gas milage, wider power band and probably double the power. Why would anybody want that?

But then again, you wouldn't have the charm of a Vespa that we all fell in love with.

Rudy
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rudy812 wrote:
I predict that a direct fuel injection system kit will be available, as a aftermarket, for the bigger 2 stroke Vespa. Think about it, cleaner, more efficent, better gas milage, wider power band and probably double the power. Why would anybody want that?

Rudy
I wouldn't expect double the power. Current direct inject scooter engines actually make less power than the carbureted counterparts. It's a lot of tech. I doubt there will ever be an aftermarket kit.
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they'll have to do something to it. my 4-stroke bajaj legend was a dog. 52 MPH tops. my uncle has one to, same thing.
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chad wrote:
why don't they just make a metal px 150, put an auto transmission in it, and be done with it? it would sell 10 billion units.
If there's a market for it, they will

Rudy
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Re: New ET Clones? 4 Stroke Shifters?
drewteague wrote:
The Bajaj Chetak has always been a 4-stoke manual, but having ridden one, I'd say the power is less than a p125.
BGK wrote:
Pacnwfoto wrote:
ericalm wrote:
I'd jump at the chance to own a good-performing new shifter-2-stroke, 4-stroke, whatever.
Me, too. A 4-stroke shifter Vespa would have a huge grin factor. It might even attract more motorcycle riders.
bajaj? anyone...<crickets>...anyone?
I think the key here is "good-performing"
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