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Hello, I have a 125 primavera from 2017 and I want more power but, after talking to my trusted mechanic, he strongly strongly advised against buying the GTS 300 as they get stolen like crazy in London.

I was thinking of tuning my 125 with the malossi 185cc cylinder kit etc. Anyone has done it and knows everything that needs to be bought for the most power possible? I have high budget as I was willing to trade up and really want more power.

Anyone knows stats post full tune? How many HPs?

Thanks all and I will post pics and videos post tune
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I don't know stats, but I did that to our LX150 - and it was a very useful addition of power. Along with a larger main jet (your mechanic should be able to advise for the 125) it runs very well indeed. A LiFePO4 battery is advised as well - an ordinary lead-acid is marginal on voltage to get the starter to turn over against the increased compression.
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jimc wrote:
I don't know stats, but I did that to our LX150 - and it was a very useful addition of power. Along with a larger main jet (your mechanic should be able to advise for the 125) it runs very well indeed. A LiFePO4 battery is advised as well - an ordinary lead-acid is marginal on voltage to get the starter to turn over against the increased compression.
Why would a lithium phosphate battery be better than a standard lead acid for crank amps?
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Thank you! I had no idea about the battery.

In terms of mods I was thinking cylinder kit, multivar and ECU. Anything else? Would a new exhaust help with performance or is it just sound?
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Vesp-ah wrote:
Why would a lithium phosphate battery be better than a standard lead acid for crank amps?
Do they have more? Yes, read the specs.

Why? You'd have to ask a chemist.
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SteelBytes wrote:
Do they have more? Yes, read the specs.

Why? You'd have to ask a chemist.
Lithium phosphate batteries are not specifically made for fast large discharge rates. They are normally made for low and slow discharge. If a battery is advertised as high CCA in a lithium phosphate it is almost always inaccurate. I build a lot of electrical systems for expedition campers. I have only found 2 brands of batteries that are accurate made for cranking a motor. Lead acid and agm batteries still win in the CCA category.
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Watch this with English subtitles.

Looks like you'll end up with around 16hp. They also sell a different final gearing to allow you to lengthen the gearing and hit a very high top speed in combination with the cylinder kit - but you might prefer quicker acceleration without this.

You'll end up with a lighter Vespa than a GTS, and the cylinder kit is also higher compression - so will give more power than just the cc increase.

Personally, I'd go cylinder kit!

?si=LYf72D304NGbKcHr
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Vesp-ah wrote:
Lithium phosphate batteries are not specifically made for fast large discharge rates. They are normally made for low and slow discharge. If a battery is advertised as high CCA in a lithium phosphate it is almost always inaccurate. I build a lot of electrical systems for expedition campers. I have only found 2 brands of batteries that are accurate made for cranking a motor. Lead acid and agm batteries still win in the CCA category.
A small LFP battery (6Ah is typical for a PTW one) will keep supplying the 40-50A required at above 13V for many minutes. It's the fact that the voltage stays high (very low internal resistance compared to lead-acid) that makes all the difference.
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jimc wrote:
A small LFP battery (6Ah is typical for a PTW one) will keep supplying the 40-50A required at above 13V for many minutes. It's the fact that the voltage stays high (very low internal resistance compared to lead-acid) that makes all the difference.
I can understand what you are talking about, but you have also not mentioned what happens to a lithium phosphate battery in cold temperatures where lead acid and sealed gel still are superior.
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Vesp-ah wrote:
I can understand what you are talking about, but you have also not mentioned what happens to a lithium phosphate battery in cold temperatures where lead acid and sealed gel still are superior.
It'll still happily discharge down to -10C, and in extremis down to -20C (but I wouldn't be riding in that!). The OP is in London - rarely does it go much below 0C.
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jimc wrote:
It'll still happily discharge down to -10C, and in extremis down to -20C (but I wouldn't be riding in that!). The OP is in London - rarely does it go much below 0C.
That's an impressive battery. Do you have a link for one with these specs?
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Vesp-ah wrote:
That's an impressive battery. Do you have a link for one with these specs?
https://ecotreelithium.co.uk/news/lithium-iron-phosphate-battery-operating-temperature-range/#:~:text=enhanced%20safety%20features.-,What%20is%20LiFePO4%20Operating%20Temperature%20Range%3F,F%20and%20113%C2%B0F).

It doesn't suggest life-long use at those temperatures of course!
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jimc wrote:
https://ecotreelithium.co.uk/news/lithium-iron-phosphate-battery-operating-temperature-range/#:~:text=enhanced%20safety%20features.-,What%20is%20LiFePO4%20Operating%20Temperature%20Range%3F,F%20and%20113%C2%B0F).

It doesn't suggest life-long use at those temperatures of course!
If you scroll down from the text that is highlighted, it states that cold temperatures increase resistance.

Some larger lithium phosphate batteries have built in heaters that will keep the battery within a safe charging rate. I have seen plenty of these batteries fail from cold temperatures and rapid discharge rates.

If you can show me a motorcycle (vespa) specific lithium phosphate battery that has a heater and bms I will retract my previous statement about lead acid and agm batteries being superior. If CCA are not enough for the standard 6ah 100a Vespa battery, the appropriate solution is to replace with a larger capacity battery that fits in the tunnel.

My point with all of this is that you are incorrect about LiFePO4 being the right mod to support a cylinder kit. The weather in a lot of England is cold and damp during the winter months so this type of battery is not ideal especially on a Vespa.
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Vesp-ah wrote:
If you scroll down from the text that is highlighted, it states that cold temperatures increase resistance.
Sure. Still an order of magnitude less than lead-acid though.
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Some larger lithium phosphate batteries have built in heaters that will keep the battery within a safe charging rate. I have seen plenty of these batteries fail from cold temperatures and rapid discharge rates.

If you can show me a motorcycle (vespa) specific lithium phosphate battery that has a heater and bms I will retract my previous statement about lead acid and agm batteries being superior. If CCA are not enough for the standard 6ah 100a Vespa battery, the appropriate solution is to replace with a larger capacity battery that fits in the tunnel.
It's not the capacity so much as the intrinsic voltage being kept up under high current loads. Also, the starting current is only being used for a couple of seconds - hardly a prolonged discharge!
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My point with all of this is that you are incorrect about LiFePO4 being the right mod to support a cylinder kit. The weather in a lot of England is cold and damp during the winter months so this type of battery is not ideal especially on a Vespa.
I can assure you that no lead-acid battery that I tried (three in total all of which work well in other bikes) managed to start that LX150 with the Malossi kit. The LFP one does every time - and no need for a battery tender either!
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JakeM wrote:
Watch this with English subtitles.

Looks like you'll end up with around 16hp. They also sell a different final gearing to allow you to lengthen the gearing and hit a very high top speed in combination with the cylinder kit - but you might prefer quicker acceleration without this.

You'll end up with a lighter Vespa than a GTS, and the cylinder kit is also higher compression - so will give more power than just the cc increase.

Personally, I'd go cylinder kit!

?si=LYf72D304NGbKcHr
Thank you! That's exactly where I saw the parts. Is there anything else I could do to go even faster? I wish a 300 engine swap was easier
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vittoriotolo wrote:
Is there anything else I could do to go even faster?
[NSR] What's cheering you up today? II (Post 2690396)
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An extra note on lithium

It cranks my GTS HPE fast than lead (yuasa). Lead does about 380-400rpm, lithium consistently gives 420 or more. Eg this morning with the coolant reporting 7C it cranked at 450.
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vittoriotolo wrote:
Thank you! That's exactly where I saw the parts. Is there anything else I could do to go even faster? I wish a 300 engine swap was easier
I think that's about the limit, but the small frame will be lighter and have better handling than a GTS, so you'll gain there.

What sort of speeds are you sitting at? Is it mostly traffic light launches, or are you on some 60/70mph roads?
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SteelBytes wrote:
An extra note on lithium

It cranks my GTS HPE fast than lead (yuasa). Lead does about 380-400rpm, lithium consistently gives 420 or more. Eg this morning with the coolant reporting 7C it cranked at 450.
Thanks for this but I'll be honest, I know absolutely nothing about batteries and how they work in relation to the engine other than kickstarting it at the beginning.

Could you please explain why a lithium battery is better? Is it just able to make the engine run at higher rpm, so more power / top speed?
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JakeM wrote:
I think that's about the limit, but the small frame will be lighter and have better handling than a GTS, so you'll gain there.

What sort of speeds are you sitting at? Is it mostly traffic light launches, or are you on some 60/70mph roads?
Thanks a lot for the help. Mechanic suggested also new belt to compliment everything and it makes sense.

I mostly ride in the city and I don't feel like I need a lot more top speed to be honest. I hardly ever ride above 80-90kph (50-55mph) just because of traffic / traffic lights etc.

What I want to fix with the tune is mostly the lack of punch above 50-60kph (30-40mph), which means I really need to line up my overtakes. When I test rode the GTS 300cc, the overtakes felt effortless
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vittoriotolo wrote:
Could you please explain why a lithium battery is better? Is it just able to make the engine run at higher rpm, so more power / top speed?
No. But they will crank longer, with more power, and you can leave them sitting for years then go fire up the bike. And if someone is riding a Vespa in sub-0 weather, they've likely got the wherewithal to figure out a workaround. Might as well worry about how your Vespa will do in a 5 mile 45 degree grade when you only ride in Florida.
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Motovista wrote:
No. But they will crank longer, with more power, and you can leave them sitting for years then go fire up the bike. And if someone is riding a Vespa in sub-0 weather, they've likely got the wherewithal to figure out a workaround.
sorry I think I am being very slow but what do you mean with "they will crank longer, with more power"? I ride my vespa daily so I have not had any issue with starting it and London's weather hardly goes below 0C (32F)
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vittoriotolo wrote:
sorry I think I am being very slow but what do you mean with "they will crank longer, with more power"? I ride my vespa daily so I have not had any issue with starting it and London's weather hardly goes below 0C (32F)
Your bike will start easier.
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vittoriotolo wrote:
Thanks for this but I'll be honest, I know absolutely nothing about batteries and how they work in relation to the engine other than kickstarting it at the beginning.

Could you please explain why a lithium battery is better? Is it just able to make the engine run at higher rpm, so more power / top speed?
Lithium (and we're talking LIFePO4 batteries here, not the sort that catch on fire) is great if your bike has high compression, if you tend to leave your bike unused for long periods (like mine in the UK), and if you're not going to try to start it when it's 0 Fahrenheit.

The reason it's better for starting is that the voltage across the battery will remain above 13V while starting, instead of dropping to 10 or 11V as happens with a lead-acid battery. This means an extra 2-3V at the starter, so 11V instead of 8 or 9V. That's at least a 20% improvement in voltage, and the same with the current, so the starter provides at least 40-45% more power. <<< Rough off-the-cuff calculation...
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vittoriotolo wrote:
sorry I think I am being very slow but what do you mean with "they will crank longer, with more power"? I ride my vespa daily so I have not had any issue with starting it and London's weather hardly goes below 0C (32F)
The bike will crank just the same in normal temperatures with lithium phosphate but running a lithium phosphate in cold weather will damage it an render it unreliable long term. If you want power and durability go with a sealed agm battery.
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Vesp-ah wrote:
The bike will crank just the same in normal temperatures with lithium phosphate but running a lithium phosphate in very cold weather will damage it an render it unreliable long term. If you want power and durability go with a sealed agm battery.
Are you really going to be starting your bike when it's -20C (below 0F) ? Even -10C is very unlikely for most riders I'd have thought. Very few will be riding when it's 0C, let alone colder. I suggest if they know enough to be able to ride safely in those conditions then they're probably got enough suss to know how to take care of their LFP battery.
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jimc wrote:
Are you really going to be starting your bike when it's -20C (below 0F) ? Even -10C is very unlikely for most riders I'd have thought. Very few will be riding when it's 0C, let alone colder. I suggest if they know enough to be able to ride safely in those conditions then they're probably got enough suss to know how to take care of their LFP battery.
OP has a motorcycle background. I am certain he can look after his equipment appropriately. The issue here is your anecdotal evidence for running a lithium phosphate battery. Lead and AGM batteries are still the leader in starter batteries. In all your posts you failed to mention disadvantages of a lifepo4 battery. Everything seems to be a positive for you because you're biased based on your experience, which is fine but it shouldn't misinform others. I wouldn't tell someone to deplete a lead acid battery by running their microwave. It would ruin the battery even though it will work.

You haven't talked about the specific voltages needed for charging, the long term damage from starting in cold weather, and overall how fragile they are compared to traditional batteries.

You mentioned the battery started your lx much better than the previous battery. Were the previous batteries you tested brand new lead acid or AGM?
Are you riding in the same location as OP? Have you ever used a AGM battery?

Without going into too much detail about my knowledge about batteries, I can tell you I have worked with companies such as Victron, Redarc, Dakota. LiFePO4 batteries are amazing for secondary batteries but not starting batteries.

If there is one exception to lithium phosphate batteries it is in race bikes where weight and size matters. Of course with any race vehicle, parts are constantly replaced so failures aren't apparent.

Nothing personal but you're wrong.
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Thanks all for the very helpful advice you all had.

One last question from me - am I going to miss out in terms of performance keeping the stock exhaust? I am keen not to attract any attention to my tuned vespa so having a loud exhaust would not help (despite the lovely sound) but I also don't want to waste all of this money just to be limited by the stock exhaust.

I know the malossi ECU also has maps for the stock exhaust but interested in hearing if anyone knows
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[quote="Vesp-
Nothing personal but you're wrong.
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vittoriotolo wrote:
Thanks all for the very helpful advice you all had.

One last question from me - am I going to miss out in terms of performance keeping the stock exhaust? I am keen not to attract any attention to my tuned vespa so having a loud exhaust would not help (despite the lovely sound) but I also don't want to waste all of this money just to be limited by the stock exhaust.

I know the malossi ECU also has maps for the stock exhaust but interested in hearing if anyone knows
The performance gain from an exhaust is negligible. Like you said the sound is nice, but not worth the cost and the unwanted attention.
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My 2 cents.

I have LiFePO4 batteries in my both houses with inverters and solar panels, they support the entire house (about 12KW in 220v) and their great advantage is that they recharge faster, they support many more charging cycles before being damaged (many more years of use before having to change them), they maintain a much more stable/constant voltage than AGM, weight, etc. Disadvantage is cost and the care that must be given to balance them in case they are in series, the charger must be designed for them, sub-zero temperatures (freezing) and similar things.

Regarding the specific case of a motorcycle and the starting batteries (it is good to note that the starting situation is only part of what a battery is used for on a motorcycle/car, for example lights, ECU, panel, etc.), it is important take into account Ohm's law. In the case of LiFePO4 batteries, the internal resistance is lower (but the motor resistance is the same in any case), the voltage does not drop as much, therefore the Amperage required from the battery to move an electric motor (in in this case the starting time) under equal conditions (W or HP as best we want) compared to an AGM battery is lower, which means that the LiFePO4 battery must make a "less" initial effort, and in general this translates into a starter motor that turns more cheerfully.

Likewise, LiFePO4 recharge faster, therefore requiring less time from the alternator (less load on the engine, therefore less power is lost), they are lighter, the self-discharge is much lower (it is not zero but it is marginal), etc. And with regard to there being a dangerous abrupt discharge for the battery, today all LiFePO4 batteries designed for automotive/motorcycle use have BMS to avoid both discharge and overcharging problems (even the ones I use in my facilities electrical backup, 95% of them have a build-in BMS). It is simply buying one of recognized quality.

In short, I have been replacing the batteries on all my motorcycles, as I need them, with LiFePO4, I have not regretted it. On the MP3 500 it feels like the initial start is more joyful (even compared to the MP3 250 which still has a Yuasa AGM exactly the same model that the MP3 500 use and a smallest engine) the HD starts much easier and faster, just to give two examples. I feel that the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages (if cost is not a relevant factor).
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Vesp-ah wrote:
You haven't talked about the specific voltages needed for charging, the long term damage from starting in cold weather, and overall how fragile they are compared to traditional batteries.
The 14.4V from the Vespa regulator is ideal for LFP, surely? The OP is in London - not much sub-zero starting there! Yes, they can be fragile, but four cells cushioned in a plastic case then held securely in a bike doesn't present much of a potential for accidental damage.
Quote:
You mentioned the battery started your lx much better than the previous battery. Were the previous batteries you tested brand new lead acid or AGM?
Are you riding in the same location as OP? Have you ever used a AGM battery?
Two Motobatts (AGM) and one Yuasa (SLA), all brand new, charge-checked before use all couldn't cope.

This LX isn't in the same location as in the UK - but I lived in London for 60 years before coming over here so understand the weather! My GT200 kept in the UK is standard with a Piaggio branded AGM though, so I'm not stating I am riding in the same conditions. However, it gets below 0C overnight where I am in the US several times a year - so not that dissimilar to London.
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Without going into too much detail about my knowledge about batteries, I can tell you I have worked with companies such as Victron, Redarc, Dakota. LiFePO4 batteries are amazing for secondary batteries but not starting batteries.
I don't doubt your expertise here - but in my personal experience (and apparently that of several others here who have added the Malossi kit) the LFP battery is the answer for overcoming the extra compression. Between us we've tried new upgraded cables, new starters, new LA batteries, and none of those things have helped except for the LFP.
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If there is one exception to lithium phosphate batteries it is in race bikes where weight and size matters. Of course with any race vehicle, parts are constantly replaced so failures aren't apparent.

Nothing personal but you're wrong.
We'll have to agree to differ. Readers can make up their own minds according to their own circumstances.
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dariusz wrote:
My 2 cents.

I have LiFePO4 batteries in my both houses with inverters and solar panels, they support the entire house (about 12KW in 220v) and their great advantage is that they recharge faster, they support many more charging cycles before being damaged (many more years of use before having to change them), they maintain a much more stable/constant voltage than AGM, weight, etc. Disadvantage is cost and the care that must be given to balance them in case they are in series, the charger must be designed for them, sub-zero temperatures (freezing) and similar things.

Regarding the specific case of a motorcycle and the starting batteries (it is good to note that the starting situation is only part of what a battery is used for on a motorcycle/car, for example lights, ECU, panel, etc.), it is important take into account Ohm's law. In the case of LiFePO4 batteries, the internal resistance is lower (but the motor resistance is the same in any case), the voltage does not drop as much, therefore the Amperage required from the battery to move an electric motor (in in this case the starting time) under equal conditions (W or HP as best we want) compared to an AGM battery is lower, which means that the LiFePO4 battery must make a "less" initial effort, and in general this translates into a starter motor that turns more cheerfully.

Likewise, LiFePO4 recharge faster, therefore requiring less time from the alternator (less load on the engine, therefore less power is lost), they are lighter, the self-discharge is much lower (it is not zero but it is marginal), etc. And with regard to there being a dangerous abrupt discharge for the battery, today all LiFePO4 batteries designed for automotive/motorcycle use have BMS to avoid both discharge and overcharging problems (even the ones I use in my facilities electrical backup, 95% of them have a build-in BMS). It is simply buying one of recognized quality.

In short, I have been replacing the batteries on all my motorcycles, as I need them, with LiFePO4, I have not regretted it. On the MP3 500 it feels like the initial start is more joyful (even compared to the MP3 250 which still has a Yuasa AGM exactly the same model that the MP3 500 use and a smallest engine) the HD starts much easier and faster, just to give two examples. I feel that the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages (if cost is not a relevant factor).
Thanks for posting this. This is a balanced approach as to why these batteries work/don't work. I respect that you included cost as being a necessary factor. I know there are lithium phosphate batteries that are made to be starter batteries but their cost is much higher than any battery you can find on Amazon. Personally, I believe those are a completely different beast. They have the appropriate bms, high cca, and are manufactured with the best cells.
@jimc avatar
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
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@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Posts: 43940
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
Tor2ga wrote:
{

Never, ever argue with jimc where any electrons at all are involved.
A bit unfair as sometimes I'm completely and utterly wrong - usually because I misread something...
@dariusz avatar
UTC

Hooked
2007 MP3 250ie / 2022 MP3 500HPE SA
Joined: UTC
Posts: 248
Location: CCS-Vzla
 
Hooked
@dariusz avatar
2007 MP3 250ie / 2022 MP3 500HPE SA
Joined: UTC
Posts: 248
Location: CCS-Vzla
UTC quote
I would like to clarify something from my previous comment/post regarding cost.

It is totally true that a LiFePO4 battery costs about twice as much as an AGM equivalent, but it is also true that while an AGM battery offers X recharge cycles, a LiFePO4 battery offers 10 times these cycles, therefore it is easy to realize keep in mind that investing in a LiFePO4 battery is something that pays for itself over time.

As an example, my 12v 200Ah AGM home batteries would be good for about 400-500 cycles, while the 12v 200Ah LiFePO4 batteries I use are good for 3500 to 5000 cycles.
@steelbytes avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2019 GTS300 Supertech E3 60,000km
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Posts: 5731
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@steelbytes avatar
2019 GTS300 Supertech E3 60,000km
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5731
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
UTC quote
Since the lithium topic continues ...

my lithium was the same cost as a yuasa agm. (standard in a gts). Lithium battery for GTS

yesterday I parked in the snow for 45mins. Supertech dashboard temp said 3C and TPMS said 2C. Started instantly.

I'm happy with my choice.
@garthhh avatar
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Addicted
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
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Posts: 581
Location: Reno
 
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@garthhh avatar
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: UTC
Posts: 581
Location: Reno
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I just replaced a yuasa agm [MP3 500] with a lifepo weize [amazon] for less than 1/2 the price [$40].
The description claimed the bms did all the advanced stuff.
I like the threaded terminals
No doubt it spins the starter faster
The battery market is changing quickly
@jakem avatar
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Vespa Sprint Sport S 125cc
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Location: Brighton, England
 
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@jakem avatar
Vespa Sprint Sport S 125cc
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Location: Brighton, England
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vittoriotolo wrote:
Thanks a lot for the help. Mechanic suggested also new belt to compliment everything and it makes sense.

I mostly ride in the city and I don't feel like I need a lot more top speed to be honest. I hardly ever ride above 80-90kph (50-55mph) just because of traffic / traffic lights etc.

What I want to fix with the tune is mostly the lack of punch above 50-60kph (30-40mph), which means I really need to line up my overtakes. When I test rode the GTS 300cc, the overtakes felt effortless
You can get a Malossi variator as well as the belt. This will adjust the gearing for better performance. Essentially it keeps the revs higher at most speeds, so you're in a lower gear for easier overtakes.

The variator is easy to change, so you might want to change just this first - and then do the cylinder afterwards, so as you can see the performance gain a tuned variator gives you.

As for the exhaust, the older 2 stroke Vespas gain a lot of performance with a sporty exhaust, but on our 4 stroke Vespas it's mostly just a nicer noise. They're also made to be removed easily to change the rear tyre, which means they're easy to steal! I'd personally stick with the stock exhaust.
OP
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Member
Vespa Primavera 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 13
Location: London, UK
 
Member
Vespa Primavera 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 13
Location: London, UK
UTC quote
JakeM wrote:
You can get a Malossi variator as well as the belt. This will adjust the gearing for better performance. Essentially it keeps the revs higher at most speeds, so you're in a lower gear for easier overtakes.

The variator is easy to change, so you might want to change just this first - and then do the cylinder afterwards, so as you can see the performance gain a tuned variator gives you.

As for the exhaust, the older 2 stroke Vespas gain a lot of performance with a sporty exhaust, but on our 4 stroke Vespas it's mostly just a nicer noise. They're also made to be removed easily to change the rear tyre, which means they're easy to steal! I'd personally stick with the stock exhaust.
Thanks a lot for the help mate!! I ended up ordering the following through my mechanic:
- Malossi 183cc cylinder + piston
- Malossi belt
- Malossi ECU
- Malossi multivar
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