OP
@c17age avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
Vespa Alstate 125
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Posts: 50
Location: Greensboro USA
 
Enthusiast
@c17age avatar
Vespa Alstate 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 50
Location: Greensboro USA
UTC quote
Hey folks
Looking for upgrade options/ combos that have worked well on the 150 SV. Looking for a good nippy run around town AND something that has legs to get to the scooter club meet 60miles away. Prefer not to open the case but not afraid to either. Thanks.
@mjrally avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 59 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 90 V5N 50, 2015 HD Road Glide Special
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Location: Oceanside, CA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@mjrally avatar
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 59 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 90 V5N 50, 2015 HD Road Glide Special
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UTC quote
I believe the Veloce will take any of the 3 port 150 cylinder kits. Gold standard seems like the Malossi 177 with a better box exhaust and up jet. I like basic bolt on for ease of install/reliabilities sake unless you want full potential.
@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
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Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
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UTC quote
If I had to start all over and having tested 2 Polinis 177c(cast iron) a Malossi 166 (cast iron), a malossi 177cc cast Iron(current one) and a malossi 177 aluminum kit(newest one) I would wholeheartedly recommend a Malossi 177 cc cast iron.
Why? because it is a true bargain and it delivers a ton of performance. I have the Aluminim kit and it looks phenomenal, great ports, great head, light weight but the CHT makes no difference between the cast iron and the aluminum (I have CHT on both scooters), plus, there is no difference in performance(acceleration, top speed).

As per exhaust, I had exellent results with the SIP SR3 and Malossi exhaust box, althouth I owned and still own a half dozen of other exhaust(lefty, righty and boxes) but my favorites right now are SR3 and Malossi.

I wouldn't recommend the carburator because for the price it yields very little gains, I fact, my Sprint Veloce with its 20 mm carb is a riot, accelerates to 50 mph (GPS) in 9 sec. Read no more!!! the summary is that for $260 ish bucks you can get a Malossi, almost double your power, gain an additional 12-14 MPH top end speed and much better acceleration. Don't reason with it, just do it.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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78 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
scooterist wrote:
If I had to start all over and having tested 2 Polinis 177c(cast iron) a Malossi 166 (cast iron), a malossi 177cc cast Iron(current one) and a malossi 177 aluminum kit(newest one) I would wholeheartedly recommend a Malossi 177 cc cast iron.
Why? because it is a true bargain and it delivers a ton of performance. I have the Aluminim kit and it looks phenomenal, great ports, great head, light weight but the CHT makes no difference between the cast iron and the aluminum (I have CHT on both scooters), plus, there is no difference in performance(acceleration, top speed).

As per exhaust, I had exellent results with the SIP SR3 and Malossi exhaust box, althouth I owned and still own a half dozen of other exhaust(lefty, righty and boxes) but my favorites right now are SR3 and Malossi.

I wouldn't recommend the carburator because for the price it yields very little gains, I fact, my Sprint Veloce with its 20 mm carb is a riot, accelerates to 50 mph (GPS) in 9 sec. Read no more!!! the summary is that for $260 ish bucks you can get a Malossi, almost double your power, gain an additional 12-14 MPH top end speed and much better acceleration. Don't reason with it, just do it.
Other than the part about going with a cast iron cylinder, I agree. Cast iron is just flat out obsolescent compared to aluminum. It's both less capable of tolerating high temperatures and less capable of dispersing heat than an Aluminum cylinder. The only reason I'd go with cast iron at this point is if I were building a stock motor (it could happen...probably won't, but it could...) or was trying something really really questionable, like altering ports and didn't want to risk an aluminum jug.

The only advantage cast iron has is that it's more likely to survive a seize than aluminum, but that's less of an advantage than just not seizing to begin with.

I have a BGM 177 top end, along with 60mm crank & SIP RoadXL and some other tweaks and that motor puts out 17 HP (it's pretty heavily reworked). It's less peaky, but more torque-y than the Malossi, so it provides a wider power band, albeit with a potentially lower peak power than the Malossi.

I have a BGM w/ a Malossi box and a BUNCH of other tuning that puts out 26 HP. I also just cracked the cases of that motor for the third time, but it's fun while it lasts. These motors really are limited mostly by your willingness to perfect them...and throw money at them when they explode.

Still, even 12-17 HP is enough power, like scooterist said, to push the bike as fast as the gearing will let it, and get it there as fast as an economy car.

Personally, given the "get to the scooter club meet 60 miles away," I'd go with the BGM, because it's really a touring cylinder (hence the broad power band) rather than a racing cylinder. It'll still lift your front wheel off the line, though.

Another consideration is your ability to do the work. Look at this dyno from FMP. Basically, the three runs are bolt-on, bolt-on and optimized, then bolt-on and reworking the cases. It went from 12->17 HP. YMMV, obviously, but it sets expectations pretty accurately, I'd say.

That seems about right, considering (like I said) that my optimized & reworked SprintV w/ BGM is 17 HP.
@gickspeed avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
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Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Ossessionato
@gickspeed avatar
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UTC quote
BGM177.
OP
@c17age avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
Vespa Alstate 125
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Posts: 50
Location: Greensboro USA
 
Enthusiast
@c17age avatar
Vespa Alstate 125
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Location: Greensboro USA
UTC quote
Thanks for the info guys. I have a Pinasco AL on my Allstate and like the temps I get on it as the iron version sized on me on an off ramp. The BGM was on my radar but also the VMC chrono but I've read that's for more involved tuning. Any thoughts on that one? I'm hoping not to split the cases yet but not averse to putting a long stroke in it in the future. Is SIP sr3 the box of choice for you guys and is there any benefit of a PHBH Carb over SI? What Size as I'm on a 26/26 SI on the Pinasco 177. Rotary intake as standard on the Veloce. Thanks again
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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78 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Location: Nashville

78 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
Honestly, you should, at a minimum, go back to a 24/24 carb, or maybe even a 20/20 carb if you haven't opened up the intake. You'll find that it runs noticeably better at 1/4 throttle if you do.

If you do decide to get serious about opening the intake and increasing intake timings, you still don't need more than a 24/24. That lack of draw at lower RPM's is part of why you seized your motor last time--it wasn't able to generate adequate vacuum through the carb's venturi to pull enough fuel/oil mix as it was winding back down.

Your idle was also probably too lean. Most tuned motors are, to be honest.

As to exhausts, the Malossi box, Polini box, and SR 3 are all good pipes and value for money. The Polini favors low end performance a little at the cost of top end rev's, where the SR 3 & Malossi are more balanced, letting the power band come in a little bit later to get the higher end performance.

Really, though, you're not going to be able to get the port timings where you need them without a long stroke crank (that's part of the difference between what gets 12HP and what gets 17HP), so if you're serious about building a tuned motor, the 60mm crank is kind've essential.
OP
@c17age avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
Vespa Alstate 125
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Posts: 50
Location: Greensboro USA
 
Enthusiast
@c17age avatar
Vespa Alstate 125
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Location: Greensboro USA
UTC quote
Thanks Chandlerman. Great advice. Can I pick your collective brains then? Is there any recommended combinations published out there for a new engine builder (I can handle wrenches and precision tools) but I see the need for a holistic build that gets the most out of it without grinding the heck out of a case. My dremmel skills are ok I suppose. Thanks again.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
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Location: Nashville

78 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9979
Location: Nashville

78 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
c17age wrote:
Thanks Chandlerman. Great advice. Can I pick your collective brains then? Is there any recommended combinations published out there for a new engine builder (I can handle wrenches and precision tools) but I see the need for a holistic build that gets the most out of it without grinding the heck out of a case. My dremmel skills are ok I suppose. Thanks again.
The best starting point for a new builder is going to be a basic top end & exhaust swap, followed by confirming ignitition timing & getting the carb dialed back in.

I wouldn't worry about the crank for a while. Do you know if your Sprint has a small cone or large cone crank? If it's the small cone, you'll probably want to at least consider installing a conversion crank if/when you go to a long stroke. That will require a new ignition, but if you're on points, that might not be the worst thing in the world either, especially if you spend much time at high RPM's.

Doing a top end swap and then getting it leak-free is, honstly, probably the important step toward successful long term motor building, because air leaks cause more carb tuning frustration and seizes than probably anything else. Knowing you don't have any leaks (as compared to hoping you don't have any) will give you an immediate leg up as you move into getting the rest of the system set up.

You can learn to measure your port timings and squish, though you won't be able to do much about them with the 57mm crank. Still, you can at least start to understand the implications of them, which is a good start.

Just the top end swap will make a huge difference in the riding experience. Going from 5 HP stock to 12 HP with a bolt on ain't chump change, but it's also not so much that you'll need to start upgrading other parts (clutch, I'm lookin' at you...) to keep them from failing. It'll also give you probably another 10 MPH of top end (from ~55 MPH to 65), too.

Once you have the new top end on and tight, you can set ignition timing (another valuable skill), then get on to getting the carb dialed in. I'd honestly stick to the existing 20/20 for a bolt-on. You won't NEED the 24/24 and it'll be easier to set up the low end correctly. Despite what people believe, moar is not necessarily better when it comes to carbs.

Get a full set of jets (idle, main, air corrector, atomizers), because you don't know what you'll need and it'll kill you both financially and time-wise to have to order jets onesie-twosie, then wait for them to arrive. Paying $12 shipping for a $5 jet feels dumber every time you do it.

There are a few cheats available now that didn't used to be options. For example, the SIP Road 3.1 has EGT & AFR bungs installed by default, you if you don't mind throwing a few hundred bucks at an AFR, that can almost guarantee you won't blow up the top end while dialing in the carb. It'll also help you develop your ear for how a motor is running (rich/lean/just right) at different throttle positions & load conditions.

Likewise, if you go with the BGM 177, it has an M10x10 CHT sensor hole already drilled and tapped, so you can run a CHT and get significantly better accuracy and timeliness on those readings versus an under-plug gauge. The CHT is a great safety feature, because it'll both help getting the motor dialed in as well as warn you if something has changed, e.g. a head nut has come loose, that would otherwise lead to disaster.

So TL;DR:
- Get a torque wrench
- Bolt on BGM177 & SIP Road 3.1
- Learn about squish and (maybe) port timings
- Learn to pressure test
- Learn to set timing
- Get a CHT
- Get a set of jets
- Tune the carb
- Ride

Nothing to it! Razz emoticon
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Joined: UTC
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Location: Tega Cay, SC
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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^^^ One of best posts I have even seen on here about possible upgrades. Good man, C.
@ray8 avatar
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Molto Verboso
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Location: Los Angeles
 
Molto Verboso
@ray8 avatar
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UTC quote
c17age wrote:
Thanks Chandlerman. Great advice. Can I pick your collective brains then? Is there any recommended combinations published out there for a new engine builder (I can handle wrenches and precision tools) but I see the need for a holistic build that gets the most out of it without grinding the heck out of a case. My dremmel skills are ok I suppose. Thanks again.
What's your budget?
@geeklion avatar
UTC

The Dude
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
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Location: PNW from LBC
 
The Dude
@geeklion avatar
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
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Location: PNW from LBC
UTC quote
Tierney wrote:
^^^ One of best posts I have even seen on here about possible upgrades. Good man, C.
Well written, good advise; Cman
@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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78 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
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Location: Nashville

78 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
Tierney wrote:
^^^ One of best posts I have even seen on here about possible upgrades. Good man, C.
GeekLion wrote:
Well written, good advise; Cman
Thanks, gents!

It was a good procrastination exercise from my day job.

I should probably add a section on why *not* to split the cases the first time (especially pre-P cases). That may be today's procrastination exercise. Razz emoticon
OP
@c17age avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
Vespa Alstate 125
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Posts: 50
Location: Greensboro USA
 
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@c17age avatar
Vespa Alstate 125
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UTC quote
Ray8 I'm looking at about 1500 all in for the things i need (Jug, Exhaust, 12v plus frame mechanicals) Speaking of which I'm looking at a vape 12v static. Are there any better and cheaper options out there? Malossi do a lightweight 12v but is that a drag racing unit for high RPM's?
Chandlerman as the others have noted your advice is much appreciated and simply put. I like simple as there seems to be too much Hi Tech talk out there that muddies the water.
Cheers.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
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Location: Nashville

78 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9979
Location: Nashville

78 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
I'm a huge fan of the Vape and currently run six of them (Variable timing w/ DC power) on different bikes. There are cheaper, but in my opinion, nothing better unless you're looking for a high-end programmable curve race igntion, which you're not.

One nice aspect of the Vape is that the CDI and regulator are both modular to the design, so you can swap fixed & variable timing, or AC and DC as the mood or requirements suit you. And those parts are relatively cheap.

You'll be pleased with it, though you'll have to do some very minor wiring changes or replace your harness for it to work with the SprintV, assuming it's the 6V AC like mine was. But that's every ignition swap, so not really a consideration.

Flywheel weight is about your preference for inertia (maintaining steady RPM's, easy idling and, to some extent, kick-starting) or acceleration. As you've already surmised, if you're not looking for a drag racer, then you don't need a super-light flywheel. If you do go with the lightened flywheel, you should go ahead and get a variable timing ignition because you're now squeezing the margins for performance.

$1,500 is about the right budget for the sort of build you're envisioning.

I'd guesstimate something like:
$350 -- top end
$200 -- exhaust
$350 -- Vape
$ 50 -- Wiring harness
$ 50 -- Bulbs, switches, other electrical bits n' bobs
$ 75 -- Carb jets
$ 50 -- New cable inners & outers
$ 30 -- clutch plates
$200 -- Vespa-specific and general mechanic's tools (flywheel puller, clutch & flywheel holders, clutch castle nut driver, piston stop, torque wrench, timing light, sockets, wrenches, screwdrivers)
$100 -- Other crap you didn't know you needed until you did
$ 50 -- Shipping

You can probably find someone to loan you the Vespa tools, but if you're in it to win it, you might as well just buy your own. They're not that much money, it just adds up.

And if you were going to replace the crank at the same time, you'd add another $500 worth of crank, bearings, seals, and gaskets to the mix. So another reason not to split the cases quite yet.
OP
@c17age avatar
UTC

Enthusiast
Vespa Alstate 125
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Posts: 50
Location: Greensboro USA
 
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@c17age avatar
Vespa Alstate 125
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Location: Greensboro USA
UTC quote
CM
The engine is a VLB1M206221 (1974) on a 1972 frame. Untouched internally as much as I know. How do I find out what the crank is (large or small taper) as a crank R&R may be on the books if I go for a vape straight off due to the 2 options on the taper side?
I believe a P crank (lge taper) would be the better option and BGM do a kit with crank and jug included with large taper. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't want to buy a small taper vape then replace the crank with a P version. Best to jump in with both feet I figure.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9979
Location: Nashville

78 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9979
Location: Nashville

78 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
I'm 99% certain you have a small cone crank. The small cone crankshaft has an M11x1.5 thread on it, whereas the PX crankshaft has an M12 thread.

You will want this long stroke crank if you decide to upgrade.

While I agree that you don't want to buy an ignition and then have to buy another ignition down the road, splitting the cases and replacing bearings and seals adds a lot more work and required expertise (because splitting & assembling the older cases is a lot harder than P cases due to the lack of a two-piece bearing).

To get a feel for what you're getting into if you decide to replace the crankshaft, take a look at the ScooterHelp step-by-step guide: https://www.scooterhelp.com/tips/engine/main.bearing.old.vespa.html .
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Ossessionato
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Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
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Location: northern New York
UTC quote
Tierney wrote:
^^^ One of best posts I have even seen on here about possible upgrades. Good man, C.
Agreed. Best overview of the tuning continuum and challenges that I've seen in print.
UTC

Hooked
1970 Sprint 150 & PX 200 / 225 and a shed full o shit
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Posts: 175
Location: New Zealand
 
Hooked
1970 Sprint 150 & PX 200 / 225 and a shed full o shit
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Posts: 175
Location: New Zealand
UTC quote
c17age wrote:
Hey folks
Looking for upgrade options/ combos that have worked well on the 150 SV. Looking for a good nippy run around town AND something that has legs to get to the scooter club meet 60miles away. Prefer not to open the case but not afraid to either. Thanks.
Keeping in mind that Sprints don't have the brakes and shocks of a PX...adding just a PX150 exhaust and tiny upjet made a big difference to my stock Sprint. Zero hesitation to hold it WOT. Would expect to see 100kmph with a modern box exhaust. Maybe just start with the exhaust? Windscreen after that?

Chur chur
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