Modern Vespa

These old machines need some finesse to shift - not like a modern motorcycle. That's half the fun though, learning to shift efficiently without f'ing it up.

It's less like shifting into gear, and more like finding where the gear is. Its all about finesse and feeling. One of the things I love about Vespa's is that You really need to know the machine and feel it out. They are temperamental and equally fun!

I think I did pretty good with the shifting.. did not have to look down much really... that 1-2 shift is a big turn LOL... like anyhting else ill get use to it.. with that said.., its a cool scooter for sure.. let the games begin!!

When you rebuild a Vespa gearbox and compare it to a modern synchro gearbox, you'll wonder how you manage to shift at all without constant grinding.


Now I know you weren't looking for this when you asked the question 'How to make my PX150 handle the best possible', but this guy has done some very interesting handling mods, it seems mainly to increase high speed straight-line stability. Not that any of it is necessary, but I guess when you build your own exhausts from scratch and install a 400cc motor, it's hard to know where to stop!

Also he does talk a little about the 11 inch rims, and what has to be done to make them centered in the frame, but not a lot of detail there.

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https://youtu.be/SQlhJ08oihM?si=uQ_XoYajOYlkunLo

Thanks bud! I am gonna check it out for sure!

52 MPH (on GPS) was the top speed of my Stella when it was still stock, so I'd believe that's what you saw on your stock PX150.

The flat fact of the matter is that anything over about 18 HP is going to start requiring expensive parts. Like...just double or even triple the cost of the stock component for budgetary purposes. If you seriously want to get to 35 HP, you're probably going to run through multiple builds on the way, each one more expensive and exotic than the last. And you're not going to do it with 150 cases.

Honestly, your best best bet for a serious performer bike is, as was mentioned previously, is getting a Smallframe and putting a Quattrini M200S with matching pipe & cases on it. That's about a $5k USD build by the time you get the rest of the supporting bits (clutches, gears, etc.). It's factory dyno'ed at 44 HP, though, assuming you put it together correctly. I have an M1L60S on the BooBadge, though, and it's "only" about 33-34 HP and is absolutely "kill yourself fast."

Over time, I've come to actually prefer my GL or Lammy for anything but the most aggressive riding, because they're both mid-20's HP, but built with a strong preference toward wide power band and loads of torque. Plus, they're not embarrassingly loud.

The Lammy is heavier and uses displacement (210 vs. 187) to get the power, so it's smoother and has the better geometry for riding straight and fast, but it was still a blast on The Snake, but it also gets it done when I twist the throttle.

The VMC 177 I have in a px150 case is absurdly quick. Polini box for the low end torque, it gets to 70mph wicked fast.

I hear you all on the cost etc... I have been looking at a built 221 with all the good stuff.. they look to make about 30hp..be a nice all around motor.. $4k plus a pipe.. i watch videos on youtube... some look fast some look slow..hard to tell if i would be happy with that..

Before spending loads of money, take some time. Your 150 engine is already not a virgin (has a crap kit). So, can now be pimped up without conscience. Buy a Malossi MHR 177, long stroke bell crank, 23/64 straight primary, 34mm VForce reed manifold and proper carb (VHSB34), SIP box or expansion. Run this for a while. See if its scary enough.

If you want me to help and you're good with the tools, it will have over 30bhp. Probably $1500 or so (that means probably more). However, half the parts will fit a 200 block, if you do happen to need more speed.

Yup. I wrote the following and then didn't finish it earlier today... I'd be VERY hesitant to shell out $4k for a pre-built 221. Not because I don't think that's what it would reasonably cost for parts+labor to do it, but because I don't think it's value-for-money.

Let me suggest another option...go the route I'm probably about to take with my GLML's motor (all prices are rounded up): Quattrini M1XL ($600) and long stroke crank ($400-600). You'll most likely want an upgraded exhaust. Maybe the SIP Nordspeed ($500) and you'll definitely need a new clutch ($300) and carb (Keihin PWK, $250), plus bearings & other bits n' bobs ($200) but you're looking at just over $2k for a motor that, if you decided to get serious with tuning chops, will probably be more power than you're really interested in.

Most 221's are in low to mid 20's HP, so I'd want to see pretty detailed spec's on that 221, including the full parts manifest and measured port timings (and, ideally, a dyno run), before I'd blindly believe it was 30 HP.

jack and chandler... you definitly got me thinking.. I might just go that route and build a motor myself.. i want to get into the motor a bit and learn.. the vespa scooter motors are new to me so im learning slow.. how much hp can i make if i just swap the cylinder to a mhr 177? Kinda what your saying.. maybe see if i can make this work harder and it will give me more of an idea on how much hp i really need...before swapping out all the guts... thanks!

How many HP does anyone *need*? That's an incredibly subjective question.

If I were going to pick a number, I'd actually say 12, because that's enough to let you cruise at 60-65 MPH with some leeway for hills and headwinds and with a P200, maybe with a kit and minimal setup, you can build that and ride it for literally years with nothing but the occasional oil change.

Now that the reasonable answer is out of the way, let's talk about what you're looking for, and what you're willing to commit to doing it.

More power == less lifetime, more cost, and more effort.

If you want to aspire to 15-16 HP, maybe 18, you can do a bolt-on of a BGM or VMC 177 along with a 60mm crank and a modern box exhaust, plus some basic port timing adjustment. That'll get you a bike that's fun to ride, will hold together for a few years, and still cruise happily on the highway at 65 with bumps to 70. You can keep your stock clutch and other bits and won't need to change your gearing.

That's a $700 project and it'll let you get into the motor, learn to do the work, and come away feeling like you have something to show for it.

As I noted above, you can almost double the power for 4x the cost, but it's going to be a LOT harder to build it successfully and if you get it wrong, you're looking at $700 at a minimum to get it back on the road.

So think about your goals and remember the Engineering Triangle definitely applies here: "Reliable, fast, cheap; Pick two."

Just swapping the cylinder to an MHR 177 is not a great idea. Carb is too small, case inlet way too small, gearing painfully low. Would run and ride acceptably but not quick, run lean and wear out fast. There are many bolt on kits but when compared to 30bhp, not so much better than the kit you have already.

its a toy... i dont care if it blows up.. this motor at least lol. I am not new to two strokes.. i build all my own motors most of the time.. am i an expert..no..but very capable so, if i get a reed valve 177 cyl or 166 what ever you folks think..pwk carb..chamber pipe, lets just say 20hp is not gonna work for me..its got to be 25hp minium... if the stock cases will not work for that let me know....and i will not waste my time..I got a funny feeling they will not.. thats why alot of folks use the 200 motor? better parts inside as well? sorry for all the questions.. but you get the idea now.. its gonna be used very rarley.. taken very good care of... and if it blows up ill fix it.. when i get time

You should definitely build your own. It probably won't be all that long before you need to be into it again, if you're looking for max power and hard riding.

A 200 case - apart from configuration of the cylinder mounting - is for all intents and purposes the same case. No stronger. It was developed off the 150 case to begin with. You want stronger, buy a Malossi VR1 case. Or go BFA if you want the strongest there is.
Any undamaged stock P case (or even LML case) will handle 25hp.

I have read some pretty un-flattering stuff about the Malossi 177 MHR on the GSF.

thanks guys for the info.. I think I will watch more videos on building these motors.. so i know what i am getting into etc...ive seen a few did not look bad at all... thanks!!
ginch>> I have read some pretty un-flattering stuff about the Malossi 177 MHR on the GSF.>> whats GSF?

Looks like the sky is the limit if your cheque book is big enough, eh? What a time to be alive...

As my cheque book is more suited to an ant rather than a vespa, if I had the skills and instruments to do it, I'd consider tuning what you got: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-cylinder-dr-177-cc-vespa-125-gtr-2-ts-150-sprint-2-v-super-2-px125-150-pe-lusso-cosa_10001000?usrc=Cylinder

...to make it more like this: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-cylinder-malossi-sport-177-cc-3117676-vespa-125-gtr-2-ts-150-sprint-2-v-super-2-px125-150-pe-lusso-cosa_31176760?usrc=Cylinder

...both cast iron. Good old cast iron will let ya overbore it later and that opens up superior piston choices.

...and gelippt the std crank to the make it more like this: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/flowed-racing-crankshaft-serie-pro-by-w5-vespa-125-gtr-2-ts-2-150-sprint-v-2-super-2-p125-150x-px125-150-e-lusso-my-cosa_45003000?usrc=Crankshaft

...perform usual ferkle to standard carb and ferret housing then whack one of these bastards on: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-exhaust-sip-road-30-vespa-125-vna-ts-150-vba-sprint-px80-150-pe-lusso_24166230?usrc=Exhaust (I have the SIP2 and have no complaints with it scraping and it's not too loud)

Splitting the cases and porting will need to be done regardless so why not have a crack at seeing what you can get out of wot u got? You might get close to doubling the teko and it'll certainly wake it up.

Maybe check out this channel if you haven't already (freakmoped): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGFRPquIoR18LObBAcAoJZg.

All the best.

P.S. don't forget order a base gasket as a template for porting - you'll need a new one anyway

GSF = German Scooter Forum. Lots of dremmels and dynos

https://www.germanscooterforum.de/

and I'll pop this tidbit here too: 150 to 200 Conversion Plate

This describes my setup except I have a Malossi box. With some supporting mods, I estimate I am making 17 hp, maybe 18. Works for me, but I do not think the OP would find it adequate.

I would essentially second jack221's suggestion: Malossi MHR 187, motorcycle-style carb and reed intake, python-style expansion chamber. Would be plug-and-play other than connecting up the carb and will easily get you in the 25-30 hp range.

I don't know if I'd call it "easily," but certainly do-able.

Plug n' play for that setup is going to be in the 20-22 HP range. 25-30 is going to involve altering the ports, in particular raising the exhaust height (a great way to trash a cylinder if you get it wrong, btw. Ask me how I know ) plus putting that whole "cost is no object" statement to the test. Your carb+reed setup alone will probably cost you $750 or more (PWK, MMW block, VForce4 reeds).

As long as we're spending the OP's money ... . The 187 version already has the ports right for a 60mm crank. I did leave out matching the cases. Don't know how much that would really add or if it would require welding should you decide to do it.

so many choices... ill have to checkout your ideas!! spending $1500 on my motor to make 20-25hp..might be a good option.. someone talked about slapping in a base space on my engine to change the port timing on this DR177 kit i have... more higher rpms... ???

First off, the DR has 2mm rings, so you'll be limited to 8,000 RPM's. You can't raise a DR up enough for it to matter unless you also replace the piston, so just assume you're buying a new top end.

As to 20-25 HP...probably in the middle of the range, but definitely do-able for $1,500.

You could probably get your DR to do 118mph, but it would need assistance...

Perfect your shifting skills now, before adding any more power to that bike.

ginch, you are funny! ok, I think i understand it alot more now... I really got to crack it open and do work no matter what.... tons of great help here guys, thank you! Ill keep you posted...Yes, im gonna ride it more first and get use to it..ill get my gps speedo out and see what its doing now.... THANKS!!

I don't want to upset people but I personally think that a Vespa is a terrible platform for handling. I mean, we can peacefully argue this topic but Cmon, it is a 70 year old design created post WW2 to be a cheap transportation vehicle on tiny Italian streets.

It does its job great are maneuvering in small spaces but it is not a good handling vehicle. It has a short wheel base, poor weight balance and very small tires. It is a fantastic scooter for it simplicity but it has a lot of limitations.

There are Vespa races and I have seen them leaning on the curves on the circuits but again, it is not a desirable platform. With that in mind you can do alloy wheels and stickier tires, I have SIP one piece, I did so for safety. Suspension wise I have some upgraded shocks that you can adjust the spring position. The brakes are much better if you have disc in the front, they are way more potent. I have the aftermarket Malossi pads but I can't tell the difference. In the back I put new Nefren shoe pads but couldn't feel much difference.

Look into a MP3 or a GTS200, 250, 300s, they are significantly better for handling.

There is nothing upsetting about this opinion, and you're not wrong!
I think the focus is on how to make what it is, the best it can be. Rather than comparing it to other (far superior) performing and handling 2 wheelers, we vintage vespisti want to fine tune these 50-60-70 year old machines to be able to enjoy them to their fullest. While at the same time appreciating and working with the inherent limitations and quirks of the machines design.

While a Modern Vespa, or any other modern 2 wheeler, may handle 'better', it is a far different machine and experience than a Vintage Vespa.

Yes, terrible. Throw in a non syncro manual gearbox, with questionable clutch and they're awful.
But that's the point. Makes them dangerous, scary, interesting, exciting, fun. I know which I prefer.

100%

I hear you about the poor handling.... but the others do not have 2 stroke soul.. i was really looking at a kymco 250 people with 16 inch wheels... a bit to pricy for a 2005 machine ($2500-$3000).. but they handle just like a small sport bike.... I might still find one and toss the vespa for sale...thats why i have been just doing small stuff with the vespa.. not convinced 100% yet.. but the vespa can give me hours of retirment work in the garage LOL.. the kymco probably never do to much to it... what else i love about the vespa.. its small, does not take up much room.. people love the vespa.. thumbs up all over.. kymco..middle finger LOL.. i watch the racers on the track with the vespa.. I probably will not corner quite that hard but close... im sure that will be plenty for me!

+1

If I wanted smooth, quiet, and comfortable, I'd drive a car.

And THIS is why I LOVE them!

Whatever you do I would like to bring up a crucial aspect mentioned earlier in the thread; tyres.

They are the interface, the only contact, with the track. They are THE limit of; period.
Budget for the best.

Ah and rims. You want the lightest you can afford. They are unsprung, rotating weight. Nuff said.


ah and have fun!

i bought sip 11" 2.5" wheels and Tyre HEIDENAU K61 tires 110 up front, 120 rear.. bitubo front race shock as mine is junk.. rear is perfect still. I want a bit more clearence for a large chamber under it if i go that route.. my tires now are bad tube junk... it might turn a bit slower but im good with that the tires make it the same height in the rear so gearing will not change...

Heidenau K61 is a good enough tyre for sports use, not a racing one though. For now just flog it for all yoú are worth and have fun.

Wonderful and curious history that factory. Used to be in the DDR and produced dead cheap shoe string budget stuff. Now properly modern but not forgetting the origins and one of the very few producing real sidecar tyres and also ´classic´ motorbike sizes.
Rather striking imo because we thank the expansion chamber exhaust* to the shoe string budget development of 2 stroke racers in the DDR.

* the box type sports exhausts are a sort of sideways developed product of this.

To me, at least half the point of these things is to get them to do what they were not designed to do. That's the fun.

There are many motorcycles and even cars that handle better. It's not a good comparison.

Ever driven a real sidecar? Real as in motorbike/scooter with sidething attached, not a custom designed threewheeler.
Makes even an 8" roller appear good handling

As you observe; why compare. That is entírely beside the point. The handling is what it is and the object is to ride to the max of yoúr limits.

well I put on my 11" wheels and K61 tires.. and new front bitubo race shock...oh my god.. just amazing... it handles so nice and rides nice now... stops killer now that it does not slam down during hard stops..... now to some motor mods and more weight reduction!

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