Modern Vespa

Would be happy to engage in a lengthy side discussion on rust removal and prevention. I think that may actually be my real hobby. The Vespas and VW are merely the medium of expression.

I think my aversion to rust stems from my first car which was a VW Squareback. Still an awesome first car!

Happy Holidays! 🎄

Got the kickstart lever in and on. Way more precise and seems more upswept with better clearance. Surprised by the level of improvement. I guess the original was just ragged out even before it cracked. lol

10/10! Would recommend!

Had another abnormally warm day today so took the scoot out to the country and even hopped on a ferry! lol

The rear shock worked great and matches the front well. Good handling yet comfortable. There are some rough spots out there and even hit some gnarly pot holes in the city by accident and never bottomed out or threw it off much at all.

Performance was really good and can't imagine there's anything left in the tune. Will still revisit the air corrector just for the heck of it when it warms up. As is, with it still breaking in, I hit 62 mph so finally made the 60/8s club! 🛵💨

That's awesome!

Thanks! Yeah it is! Well chuffed as some say! 😄

Well chuffed indeed! Nice work!

😁😄 Thanks!

What's your final jetting?

1.5 turns out on A/F screw, 50/120, AC160, BE5, MJ130

It's last covered about half a page back if you want more detail. The whole process from start to finish I tried to document. It's more a journal than a tutorial.

A number of people think an AC160 has no place in a modified engine so I'll take a look at that when the weather warms up. I don't think there are any right or wrong answers. It's based on performance. If it works better real world I'll use it and if not I won't.

Every engine is different. Two identical builds will generally want slightly different jetting. That's where individual tuning comes in. I can guarantee no one would have called out that jetting.

Well, it was warm again so I took Lil' Ripper to work and back. lol

It was running good, but the idle circuit started acting up here and there. It was dropping rpm and bogging at idle and immediately off idle. It acted like it was rich but was actually lean. Very strange and I've never experienced that before except on an SI carb.

When I got back I decided it was as good a time as ever to try out the AC140 again. I basically tried every combo I had and it didn't really like anything until I went WAY down on the main jet. Went from a MJ130 all the way down to a MJ116. For the idle jet it still wanted the 50/120 but I might go up one since it wants 2.5 turns out on the A/F screw. For the mixer I tried a BE3, BE4, BE5 and BE6 and it liked the BE6 the best.

All the test rides up to this point were bad to mediocre. I was contemplating just swapping back to the AC160 set up.

I'm glad I didn't because the last configuration finally paid off. It was really good. Don't know how this keeps happening but I'll take it.

Quick recap on the 24.24 AC160 jetting: Pretty good everywhere but dry at WOT in 4th. Figured just the way the carb and build were. In hindsight it was kinda dry everywhere with the AC160. Now it seems like it's 25% better everywhere and probably 75% better at WOT in 4th. It actually accelerates at the top of 4th now like it's in 3rd or something.

I didn't wind it out all the way in 4th since it was night and the headlight doesn't project too far. Didn't want to wipe out from a pothole or something else I couldn't see.

That being said I'd bet a dollar I was doing at least 70 mph before I chilled out and chopped the throttle. I'll definitely be running the GPS next time to find out.

FINAL (?) JETTING: 2.5 TURNS OUT IDLE A/F SCREW, 50/120, AC140, BE6, MJ116

I have no idea anymore

It's nice to dream but top speed basically the same.

It gets there quicker though and actually pulls top of 4th now. Also overall it feels fatter fuel wise so safer than it was.

Thanks for all the help!

Well done!

pm me and you shall receive the coveted 60/8s Club sticker to display on your lil ripper.

Nice! Definitely! Thanks!

Well, I managed to negotiate and secure an old P(X)200. I plan to put it in the Allstate and keep it on 8" wheels. It should be arriving in a couple weeks.

I've been thinking about it for a little while, but planned on acquiring parts here and there in a very spread out process. Worst case scenario I get a head start on all the nickel and dime parts I need should I decide to get aftermarket cases instead. I couldn't pass this one up when I stumbled upon it while perusing classifieds as one does.

Serial number is VSE1M so either a P or PX. Seller believes it's post 1982 and it was out of a Gary Fisher scoot so may have connection to him. It has an old Malossi 210 kit, Cosa 2 clutch, lightened flywheel, variable Parmakit ignition. Supposedly stock gears and crank but will check. Has some bumps and bruises but nothing that should effect running.

Had expansion chamber exhaust and reed intake but I passed on those. Seller is leaving the intake manifold on just to keep stuff out of the motor during shipping and so I can go modern carb if I want. The intake is bolt on and said rotary pad is intact and in great shape.

I plan on taking it apart and going through it. I've read the old Malossi kits are turds and have no ass. Have also read they are basically fixed with a long stroke crank so plan on installing one. Going with a box exhaust and had good experience with the Road 3 so may get one for a 200. Going to stick to an SI for now as well. Maybe go up a size or two, 26 or 28, if necessary. Will get it going on 24.

Seller mentioned the ignition kit can be set up to run AC or DC. I want to look into whether I can set up for AC and adapt the current wiring to it or not. Don't have a problem running new harness if necessary but don't want to run a battery.

Made a separate post about sourcing a Super 150 gear set and I did find one but I'm having reservations now. I came across a post response by a member here that highly advised against using that gear set in a 200 and definitely not in a tuned one. They said they are thinner, more brittle and are hard to find and expensive if and/or when they break. They seemed to be esteemed and well regarded and their posts were very knowledgeable. I'm taking their advice very seriously. The safe bet seems to be stock gear set with a T5 fourth and the DRT 25/62 primary to bring the ratios down for the 8" wheels. Robust and readily available at a reasonable price.

Will update when the motor gets here.

Congrats on the engine score. Sounds like a good starting point. I myself ran a 'old' Malossi 210 kit for 20 years, the same kit worn out with many many miles. I'd hardly say it is turd. 57 stroke, reed intake, 30 phbh carb, EFL stock gears + T5 4th. That thing has been a ripper and super fun! Power down low, and even more so up high! Torque and power all thru the gears up to 75mph+. It's true there are a variety of more modern options out there now, including the updated Malossi. Like anything technology and understanding advance, so of course a modern kit will be better.

As for the gearing, I'd lean toward putting in a EFL gear set; since your building a tuned engine. It will be stronger, more secure gear selection, and many options for gear ratios. Of course there is the expense to consider, which is not that cheap. Buildiing a strong bottom end is key for longevity, and I feel it is a worthy upgrade for all tuned builds. Your plan for the primary gear swap will get you the ratio you need on 8" as easy as possible.

Thanks! Yeah I hope so. That sounds like a nice combo! Glad to hear a positive take on the old Malossi kit. It's just that I came across a lot of dead top end in 4th type posts. I'm seeing now though it's more of a gear issue than a kit issue which is great news. A lot of the negative reviews came from the UK ProBoards Vespa forum. Maybe the posts were older and tuning knowledge wasn't up to speed then. Maybe the reviews were based off bolt on zero tuning results. I don't know.

That sounds like a really good build with all around performance from your description. I'm all for keeping the old style Malossi if I can and I'm hoping for similar performance. Not sure how far I want to tune it though. I'd like to avoid an expansion chamber exhaust system but would be fine with a modern style carb if it makes a difference. Halfway there since a manifold is being included with the motor.

Thanks for the heads up on the EFL set up! I'll start looking into it. Yeah that would be awful to shatter or shear gears after all the effort to build the motor.

The DRT 25/62 is such a great option to have and I'm glad I came across them in my research. With your gear advice, and recommending even stouter gears than stock, I can imagine the Super 150 gears would not be long for this world in a tuned 200 build.

I think alot of opinions on tuned engines are based in the idea that a tuned motor will perform the same as stock, but faster and more powerful in all ways. This is not the case. A tuned build with modern cylinder and all the goodies will produce more power, but there are always trade offs. Always a give and take. More power in high revs usually means less torque down low, so you gotta rev it high down low just to get to the power band. More torque down low, means less up top. Expansion chamber is more power, but usually more limited power band. Gearing is a huge factor as well. Just because a cylinder setup has the potential to rev to 11'000 rpm and 90mph, doesnt mean it will ever reach that IRL.

A tuned engine runs and rides differently than stock, so You have to learn to control it differently as well. Puttering around at 35 in 3rd gear on a stock P2 is way different than reving out 9k in 3rd @ 70.

All true and good points!

I've noticed there's a very fine balance to the performance of these engines.

Engine landed! Matches up with seller's description. Appears the kit is bone stock and in good condition. I'd like to do the DIY tuning I've seen on here and go 60mm crank.

Ludicrous! Another 60/8s club member. Sorry I missed this.
Digital sticker added!
Well done!

It was stable too! On the twitchy side but more than manageable.

Thanks!

Seems this thing already has a Mazzy 57mm race crank so I'll probably end up just doing a basic O tune on it performance wise. The cases are already port matched too. Piston and cylinder appear untouched.

{Just migrating this over to my main build thread. Doesn't need anything major so keeping the info together.}

Proper degree wheel and accessories finally got here. I made do with an automotive degree wheel last time but it wasn't the best tool for the job. Much easier with the SIP version.

Anyway, here are the degrees as is:

Exhaust Duration: 177°
Transfer Duration: 116°
Blowdown: 30°
Intake Duration: 184°
Intake Opening: 51°

At this point I'm leaning towards just tossing it together and riding for a season. Maybe pick up a Malossi Sport kit later.

I do plan on opening up the piston per the Hibbert O Tune but likely not going to bother the cylinder.

The stock head it came with isn't in the best shape so I oredered the 11.5 CR MMW head for it.

I want to keep costs to a minimum for now.

Cracked the case again. lol

Some minor odd things inside but decent shape otherwise. Bearings are good. Noticed the fly side seal was wonky so replacing all the seals to be safe. Replacing cruciform, kickstart o-ring and bumpers, random fasteners, etc.

Parts got here to convert to 25/62 primary. Pieced together a kit for the Cosa 2 and went with straight cut gears vs the helical gears in it now. Damn near almost ordered the kit for a standard clutch instead. lol

Pad in good shape.

It has a 36 tooth 4th already.

I do need a 38 tooth 3rd gear sprocket. This one has some chipped teeth. Anyone have a decent used one laying around?

25/62 is the highest primary gearing available. If this has a stock ratio cluster and 10 inch wheels, there are no cogs that will make this kit pull. Likely to have trouble at the top of 3rd. Straight cut is better but the 25 cog is too big.

It's going in an Allstate and they have 8" wheels.

Well that's ok then. See how it rides before spending on cogs.

Found someone off site that had a 3rd gear for sale.

Brand new Piaggio gear is $55.

They wanted $60 for a used one.

Bought a new one.

They know what they have I guess.

Anyway, that's taken care of.

Alright I'm canceling the 38 3rd sprocket and picking up a 40 2nd and 37 3rd instead. Seems like a nice spread.

Did a very basic cut along the dotted lines job on the piston.

Spent some time going over the porting done by past owner(s). Didn't touch the cylinder as it seems fine as is and also didn't want to dance with the nikasil. Maybe some other time.

There were a few spots missed and not blended well at the case transfers, carb inlet to rotary pad, Malossi intake, and the biggest spot I caught was the upper transfer.

Gasket matched the case transfers better and improved the flow and transitions. The bulk of the work was already done by a previous owner.

The rotary pad inlet length was ok but the transitions from the carb inlet were wonky and did not flow well. Smoothed those out and matched the gasket better.

The upper transfer barely opened up at the case. Would have been barely functional. Got in there and opened it up as it should be without going crazy. Glad that was caught.

Gasket matched the Malossi intake, which was not bad, but the main issue with it were the internal contours at the casting join. It looks smooth on the outside but it had a very hard almost 90 degree corner for half the circumference on the inside. Blended it as smooth as possible with regard to material thickness which proved to be pretty thick. Came out nicely.

Didn't really take pics since they don't display the contours well in 2D.

This is also an Old Malossi Kit so I'm using the old gaskets for the transfers. Half tempted to open up the transfers to match the new Malossi Kit gasket, but don't have the equipment for it and as said previously I don't want to mess with the nikasil at the moment. Was able to do everything else with DIY bits and a Dremel.

The below pics are all before correction:

Couple pics of the top transfer port opened up. Was crazy how closed up it was.

The one thing that always surprised me with the old Malossi 210 kit, was that the ASSO piston windows didn't line up with the cylinder windows.

If you look at the wear marks inside your cylinder. The inboard side overlaps the entire port by about 4mm. Other side is fine.

The solution is to widen the window in the piston above and below the centre bar. Grand Sport and Worb5 used to make pre modified pistons. Might be able to search to find a picture.

EDIT: This gives you some idea for the other side
https://beedspeed.com/products/vespa-rally-px-p200e-lusso-98-my-cosa-grand-sport-polini-208cc-piston-kit-o-68-5mm?currency=GBP&variant=42198175809722

I remember seeing mention of this in the Hibbert thread. Couldn't find much else on it. I'll look at it while I've got it apart. Thanks

Separately, I tried to find someone to machine the head so I could add a base packer to increase the transfer timing and only found one guy over here. I'll probably have to ship it to Europe if I want that done since we seem to be in short supply of people familiar with the job. Funny thing about the UK is it seems every third guy down the street is running a machine shop out of their shed.

I bet Al Harpman @ Hot Rod Scooters would make quick work of that job.

Will look into. Thanks!

Test fit the DRT 40 2nd and 37 3rd and they fit nicely. Gears mesh well and the height is pretty spot on. The DRT gears work with old and lusso 200 gearboxes. Waiting for a thinner shoulder washer to arrive and will button the stack up.

Current gearbox is stock tree, stock first, 40 2nd, 37 3rd and 36 4th with 25/62 primary for the 8" wheels.

Got hold of a Keihin PWK 28 to go with the Malossi 28 mm intake. Really good shape. Just need to get a couple things to run it on a Vespa and rejet it to suit.

Ended up going with 28 simply due to the intake being 28. The intake was included with the engine so might as well use it. Went with PWK since it's a D slide and seems to be well supported.

Looks like it'll be a tight fit judging by that quick mockup. May need a spacer. Will see.

Engine pretty much sorted. Waiting on assorted base spacers to get port timing a little better. After that I'll have the head milled for the difference and start final assembly.

Few things got here today. Carb parts, clutch parts and base spacers.

Ordered cable attachments for the PWK. One for choke and one for throttle. Choke connection was correct but the throttle connection was for a different model. Have to reorder the proper version.

As far as clutch, I stumbled across the Cosa clutch horror stories and decided to get a sturdier basket. Looked at banded ones but saw SIP had a CNC basket on sale for only a few dollars more so got that. Seems like a nice compromise between the banded steel ones and the all out trick versions available. It's a nice piece. Got their performance clutch plates as well.

Ordered base spacers to try to improve the duration numbers. Got 1.5mm, 1mm and 0.8mm to try out. Results were interesting. I didn't test the 0.8mm or 1mm spacers individually at all since I needed a big jump.

Original Durations:
Intake=184
Exhaust=177
Transfer=116
BD=30

1.5mm Spacer Durations:
Exhaust=182
Transfer=122
BD=30

I went ahead and increased the spacers to see if I could get 125/185.

1.8mm (1mm & 0.8mm) Spacer Durations:
Exhaust=183
Transfer=128
BD=25

That was interesting but kind of wonky. Didn't expect BD to take such a hit. Just for shits and giggles I tried another combo.

2.5mm (1.5mm & 1mm) Spacer Durations:
Exhaust=186
Transfer=131
BD=25

Another juxtaposition. Speed numbers but the BD will counter their production.

I'm going with the 1.5mm base spacer since it's the best all around balance. I'll be sending the MMW 11.5 CR head to be milled down to compensate for the spacer. That head has 1.2mm squish so if milled flush I should end up with 1.3mm squish with the 1.5mm spacer.

I'm shooting for a clean split between a HP and TQ type build. A nice all rounder. After putting so many resources into the 177 and Allstate rebuild in general I wanted to make the most of the motor as is. A modern 210 kit and a 60mm crank would've doubled the price of the motor.