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@fatbear5 avatar
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
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Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
I'm a Shifty guy who has suddenly found myself with a Twisty… and I don't know what to do with it.

I've been riding and wrenching Vespa P200s for about a decade and I pretty well know my around them but now I've picked up a non-running 2005 ET4 and I don't know how to begin to get it operational again.

It has been sitting in a garage for about 10 years so the first thing I did was replace the battery but the starter motor won't turn over. I get instrumental panel lights, turn signals, brake and brake lights but no headlight and nothing from the starter… not even a click. I checked the fuses and made sure the Power switch was on but I'm still getting nothing.

Is there something I'm missing? Any suggestions as to what I should try next?

For what it's worth, I tried kick starting it but couldn't get the engine to turn over even when standing on the kickstart lever. I was thinking about taking out the plug to make sure the engine isn't frozen, but it looks like removing the plug is a major job itself. Maybe tomorrow.
Bringing it Home
Bringing it Home
Instrument Panel Lights Up
Instrument Panel Lights Up
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MP3 500 HPE 2019
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Maybe put some petrol in the tank
@2scooter avatar
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Member
2008 Vespa LX150
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Posts: 31
Location: Livermore, CA
 
Member
@2scooter avatar
2008 Vespa LX150
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Posts: 31
Location: Livermore, CA
UTC quote
Any information to go on from the previous owner? like the engine is seized?
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
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Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
flybynight wrote:
Maybe put some petrol in the tank
The tank is empty but I'll add ga... uh, petrol once I can get the starter motor to turn over. Is there some sort of fail-safe mechanism that prevents the starter motor from operating when the tank is empty?
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@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
2Scooter wrote:
Any information to go on from the previous owner? like the engine is seized?
No, PO hasn't even looked at in years. He know nothing
@znomit avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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Posts: 10610
Location: Hermit Kingdom
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@znomit avatar
LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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UTC quote
Is that really only 106 miles or has it had a new instrument cluster fitted?

In that case it may well be much longer than 10 years. Probably all gummed up.

Hauling too hard on the kickstarter will generally crack the transmission cover so be gentle.
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Hooked
MP3 500 HPE 2019
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UTC quote
Yep holding the brake to start with

"Won't start" diagnosis for beginners
Fatbear5 wrote:
The tank is empty but I'll add ga... uh, petrol once I can get the starter motor to turn over. Is there some sort of fail-safe mechanism that prevents the starter motor from operating when the tank is empty?
@jimc avatar
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Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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UTC quote
Do you hear a 'click' when you hit the starter button? If not, then the starter relay isn't even trying to 'make'.

ET4 manuals here: https://manuals.wotmeworry.org.uk/Vespa/ET4/

Note the headlight is AC powered, so won't come on until the engine is running.
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Petty Tyrant
0:7 And counting
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Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
@jess avatar
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UTC quote
flybynight already mentioned it, but I will say it again just in case, since it is such a tiny detail and potentially what is stopping you. Probably not, but just in case:

There is a starter interlock that depends on a brake lever being depressed. Either one will do, but check both.

And the kill switch as well, but I think you already mentioned the "power switch".

And the kick start is literally useless. It won't work and you'll crack the transmission case. Do not use.
@aiosi avatar
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Hooked
2005 Vespa PX 150 Serie America #107 of 500
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UTC quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
I was thinking about taking out the plug to make sure the engine isn't frozen, but it looks like removing the plug is a major job itself. Maybe tomorrow.
In my experience with 2001 ET4...
Removing the plug is a piece of cake, it's putting it back in that is a real PITA!
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@fatbear5 avatar
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
flybynight wrote:
Yep holding the brake to start with
Son of a Bitc... uh, Gun! I had no idea that there was an interlock on the brake lever. I saw that the manual says to set the brake when starting but I thought it was just for safety's sake so I ignored it... as I often do for things that are good for me. Tonight I pulled the lever and got power to the starter. It didn't turn over but that may be because the battery I used was from one of my P200s and it may not have had the power to turn over the engine. I'll work on it more tomorrow.
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Posts: 1312
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Molto Verboso
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1977 P200, 1980 P200
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UTC quote
znomit wrote:
Is that really only 106 miles or has it had a new instrument cluster fitted?

Yes, 106 is correct mileage. I got this from a guy who has been one of my closest friends for more that 50 years so I know the speedometer is correct. He and his wife both bought Vespas in 2007 and she decided that she didn't like hers after just 106 miles. It took her 15 years to decide that she wasn't going to ever ride it again so he sold it to me knowing that I would enjoy it... even if it wasn't a Shifty.
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
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1977 P200, 1980 P200
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UTC quote
Aiosi wrote:
In my experience with 2001 ET4...
Removing the plug is a piece of cake, it's putting it back in that is a real PITA!
Good to know
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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When removing or installing the plug, it is easier off the center stand as you will find you get a little more room to maneuver the cap off, plug out, etc... Have someone hold it, rest the left side of the scoot against your leg, or find a way to tie it off.
@jimc avatar
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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UTC quote
An open-ended 19mm wrench helps lever the cap off.
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Also thinking as the scoot is a brand new old scoot maybe the sparkplug wrench is in the toolkit that comes with a new old scoot with 106 miles, some awesome tips below

How to get vespa et4 spark plug out??????
jimc wrote:
An open-ended 19mm wrench helps lever the cap off.
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@fatbear5 avatar
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
flybynight wrote:
Also thinking as the scoot is a brand new old scoot maybe the sparkplug wrench is in the toolkit that comes with a new old scoot with 106 miles, some awesome tips below

How to get vespa et4 spark plug out??????
I didn't find a tool kit but I have plenty of tools from working on my P200s. Good tip about the 19mm wrench
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Posts: 1312
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UTC quote
What is the purpose of the aquamirine insert in the throat of the gas tank filler tube and how can I remove it. It is preventing me from inserting my siphon hose.
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I would imagine it is to stop putting diesel in, as diesel nose is bigger

some tips below

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Ossessionato
BV400, Primavera 150, Yamaha Zuma 125
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@jkj-fz6 avatar
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@fatbear5 avatar
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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UTC quote
flybynight wrote:
I would imagine it is to stop putting diesel in, as diesel nose is bigger

That makes sense
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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UTC quote
Useful info. Thanks
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Posts: 1312
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UTC quote
Well. I'm getting there.

I drained the 15 year old gas (ugly stuff!) and replaced it with fresh gas and now it will start without the Starter Spray but it runs badly. It won't idle and when I can get it to rev at a higher speed it won't do so consistently. I have to constantly blip the throttle and I can keep it going for a couple of minutes but eventually it will die.

It looks to me like a fuel feed issue so I'm thinking clogged jets. Does that seem reasonable?

I'm little intimidated by the thought of having to pull the carb. I can pull the carb on my 2-stroke in just a few minutes but the ET4 carb looks to be a lot more involved. Lots of hoses and other connections. I've been watching videos so I'm sure I can do it but I'd welcome any tips.
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Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
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Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
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UTC quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
Well. I'm getting there.

I drained the 15 year old gas (ugly stuff!) and replaced it with fresh gas and now it will start without the Starter Spray but it runs badly. It won't idle and when I can get it to rev at a higher speed it won't do so consistently. I have to constantly blip the throttle and I can keep it going for a couple of minutes but eventually it will die.

It looks to me like a fuel feed issue so I'm thinking clogged jets. Does that seem reasonable?

I'm little intimidated by the thought of having to pull the carb. I can pull the carb on my 2-stroke in just a few minutes but the ET4 carb looks to be a lot more involved. Lots of hoses and other connections. I've been watching videos so I'm sure I can do it but I'd welcome any tips.
The carb on these is nothing to be afraid of. Once you've done it once or twice, it's a piece of cake. You need to loosen the hose clamps on either end of the carb; it might be worth removing the airbox to get more wiggle room. You need to remove the fuel line, throttle cable, electrical connector for the carb heater and the electrical connector for the bystarter assembly. The carb should come out with minimal fuss.

I suspect that the chamber between your venturi and pilot jet might be gummed up. Your accelerator pump may not be working either.

The carb is a Keihin CVK and parts are still available; if Piaggio doesn't have them, someone else will.

If you need more detail, I'll get some pics from the CVK off of my LX150.
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Hooked
P200E DN 1982
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Location: Vva. del Rosario - Málaga - España
 
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P200E DN 1982
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Location: Vva. del Rosario - Málaga - España
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Fatbear5 wrote:
He and his wife both bought Vespas in 2007 and she decided that she didn't like hers after just 106 miles. It took her 15 years to decide that she wasn't going to ever ride it again
Change a few numbers and it is the story of my 125 Primavera.
Also that of my ex´s mountain bike and currently (pun intended) her electric mountain bike.

Clap emoticon to you Fatbear5.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
Joined: UTC
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Location: Tega Cay, SC
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
Carb work is easy on these scoots. AZ has it down right. While you're at it, change out all the vacuum and hose lines. Also check the rubber intake manifold which is known to crack. If you are feeling energetic, lose the EVAP system and save yourself a headache down the road.
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
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Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
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1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Posts: 1312
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UTC quote
az_slynch wrote:
The carb on these is nothing to be afraid of. Once you've done it once or twice, it's a piece of cake.
I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the step by step instructions
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@fatbear5 avatar
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
Tierney wrote:
While you're at it, change out all the vacuum and hose lines. Also check the rubber intake manifold which is known to crack.
Sounds like a smart thing to do
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@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
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Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
Ok, I've pulled the carb... well almost. I still have two electrical connections I need to deal with but I don't know where to disconnect them? I've followed the wiring as best I can but haven't found a connector for the two cables. Am I missing something or do they disconnect at the carb? If so, I'm guessing that I would unbolt the smaller wire on the left but where would the larger wire, the one with the black cap, unplug? Does it just pull out? As you can imagine, I don't want to try unplugging something that doesn't unplug.

Getting the two larger carb hoses disconnected was a bugger and I'm worried that putting them back on the carb is going to be a SOB. I'll probably heat the hoses but I'd welcome any other tips.

I also had a hell of a time getting the orange-labled hose off. I finally had to give the hose clamp a rather firm twist. I'm thinking that that hose is the fuel line but I was surprised that no gas came out when I finally got it off the carb. Is that telling me something?
I don't know where to disconnect these two electrical connections
I don't know where to disconnect these two electrical connections
Does this unbolt from the carb here or unplug elsewhere?
Does this unbolt from the carb here or unplug elsewhere?
Where does the connection under the black cap disconnect?  Also, is the orange-labled hose the fuel line?
Where does the connection under the black cap disconnect? Also, is the orange-labled hose the fuel line?
Don't think I'll reuse this hose clamp.
Don't think I'll reuse this hose clamp.
UTC

Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1271
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1271
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
Orange is the fuel line.

The thing above it is the bystarter. There should be about a foot of wire and a red two-pin plug. Lube the connection before passing down on that tab. You may need to wiggle it a bit.

The bolt with the wire is the carb heater. There should be a black two-pin connector about 6-8 inches down the wire; remove it like the red one. I don't recommend unscrewing it with the wire connected to the harness as it might damage the connections.
Showing the bystarter plug.
Showing the bystarter plug.
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@fatbear5 avatar
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Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
I didn't see any connectors when I looked this morning but now that I know what to look for, I'll check it out tomorrow. Thanks
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1312
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
Fatbear5 wrote:
I didn't see any connectors when I looked this morning but now that I know what to look for, I'll check it out tomorrow. Thanks
GOTCHA YA YOU BASTARD!

This morning I found the two connectors hidden in a black sheath. Of course, I couldn't slide the sheath out of the way and had to slit it to get at the connectors but I'll tape it back together when I reinstall the carb. Considering how tough it was to get the wires out of the sheath I expect it's going to be a son of a bitch putting it all back together. (I tried unscrewing the clamp that holds the sheath in place but couldn't do it.)

Thanks oz slynch for your help with this.
The clamp that doesn't unclamp
The clamp that doesn't unclamp
All it needs is a little tape.
All it needs is a little tape.
It's going to be a bugger getting this connector back in the sheath!
It's going to be a bugger getting this connector back in the sheath!
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