Modern Vespa

AaronA

Are you planning on buying directly from SIP? If so, keep in mind that anything over $700 will carry customs duties. The shipping company will contact you about the dollar amount to be paid. Cheaper to have different orders and no duty. If you've already played the shipping game, disregard.

I was just going through all the parts inside the engine that I would need to build a complete engine and compiled everything in the cart, Some I just chose for the hell of it, such as the gearbox spacers, when you obviously need to use a specific thickness. I honestly don't know what parts I don't need for building a new engine.

AaronA so what is your plan? Built 100% new engine from scratch on SIP crankcase?

I just compiled everything needed to build a complete engine, I honestly don't know what parts that aren't needed or don't need to be replaced. I have no spare parts, or let alone, any Vespa parts at all, which is why I put just everything (I think) into the cart.

Regarding the scooter in the video, does it sound like it has a reed valve intake though? I'm just curious how this would compare to the specs on that PK I have been looking at. Standard rotary valve setups have the slow and linear power band where as reed valves have a more aggressive almost (light switch) powerband correct?

That's the type of power I'm looking for, and If I do end up with that PK, I'm just wondering what can be done, if anything, to the current setup, i.e. changing a few things on it, to make it faster and have a more aggressive power curve. I would imagine the first thing would be a reed valve intake such as this: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/intake-manifold-polini-for-vespa-pk50-xl-fl-hp-n-rush-xl2-125-ets-n-xl-xl2_21502330 and maybe a bigger carb?

I also was looking at a 100 special project a friend of my uncle has for sale, and currently it has a Malossi 102 engine built for it, but I'd for sure change it out to something bigger and put a pipe on it instead of the banana. I do know anything bigger then like 102cc will require a 51mm crank.

Here's photo's of the scooter body and engine:

Polini reed is old and far from modern ones e.g. VMC or Italkast.
But anyway, without suitable crankshaft and milling the intake on crankcase the result of reed install is barely noticeable.

If I end up with either the PK or the 100 special, more then likely I will utilize the existing cases and associated parts, and just buy a bigger cylinder kit, at least if I end up with the 100 special.

I can have Erik or a local shop like Massimo or ScooterWest do the necessary mods and strengthening to the stock cases. If I end up with the PK, I'll see what I can do to make it's current setup faster, i.e. ignition, reed valve, but I more then likely will just buy a new cylinder kit even if I ultimately end up with the PK, such as the Italkast 132.

For a reed valve setup using the original case intake, besides having to port the intake, would you use a full circle or flowed crankshaft for engines that use a case intake reed setup?

Bell or flowed.

I figured. And then full circle for direct intake?

Yes mate. For sure you can use FC with case intake but need more milling.

Bell crank for original inlet, will more useful

details will be forth coming during the press conference at a later date. i'm not taking questions at this time.

And double that amount if Aaron still wants a PK fork in a non-PKXL scooter. Plus quadruple the headache for a proper install.

I don't know why you're so obsessed with reed vs rotary and the power delivery.

slight changes to the build component wise can give you that instant on/off light switch power with either. you just have to build it for that

rule number one: everything is a compromise
rule number three: it costs double what you think it will and take at least twice as long
rule number 3: never trust a blonde with hoop earrings

unless you have cash in the form of bank robber satchels with $ signs on them and like spending way more than a bike will ever be worth then avoid that smallie in pieces. also, you *might* be done building it about this time next year, but probably more like sometime in 26.

starting an expert level project like that with no network, no parts and no granular vespa skills is a road that's rocky and only winds up with bruised feet and abandoned half done projects collecting dust and listing on CL for crack pipe prices.

you still haven't told us what you actually want in a smallie. do you just want a wheelie machine that sounds cool AF and rips around town? a 90mph screamer that's terrifying in every gear? a good touring bike that rips?

there's a lot more considerations than just slapping some Johnny hot shit parts on a motor and calling it done.

sleuthing in the comments it appears that it's a 24/72 and a 24 dell. I'm guessing it's on a polini case reed and it sounds like a lightweight flywheel.

fun city bike if you like being busy and the controls and wringing its neck all the time. probably replacing clutch plates at twice the rate of flyside bearings and crosses tho.

Your first and third suggestions.

If I understand, you've ridden your grandpa's old VBB, you know motorcycles and how to wrench, you want to start out building the hottest motor you can, the PK being considered is close by but you have not even gone there to test ride it, but have mostly made up your mind about best ways to upgrade it???

Until you go try it and talk face to face w/ the builder, or buy another suitable smallie ...
I'm done here, I feel like we're just going in circles.

unclear on your response.

so a wheelie machine that rips around town

or

a wheelie machine that sounds cool and rips around town and a touring bike that rips

first is easily done with that PK, probably just change the gears and throw a lightweight flywheel at it.

the second? open your wallet W-I-D-E

And little tip about gear box, esp. on PKs.
There is so called "long" gear box with unique xmas tree, loose gears, kickstarter quadrant and kickstarter gear.
And without possibility to put short 4th gear in it.
To identify it you need to count teeth on xmas tree. If it will 10-14-20-25 - it is "long" gear box.
So you need to choose primary gear carefully, because "standard" variants don't work here.

please don´t; gold mine of info for mé here

Yes, something to rip around town with that is also good for touring, not looking at something that is like 50 HP crazy like those drag Smallframes that hit like 16,000 rpm or so. Something like this setup: I'm not doing a Quattrini set up, but the power and riding is for reference on what I want. Quattrini 144 and Quattrini cases each both cost about $600, so that's already $1200.

For the second, like I listed all those parts on SIP, I could build an engine that is a screamer and good for touring for about $3000+, factoring in shipping, that's if I were to order everything from SIP.

there's a wide, wide gap between quattrini, falc, zirri, egig, upper parma and everybody else. so "something like this" doesn't exist. it's either that, or it's not.

dig deeper: from the comments he's running a 26/69 with a short 4th and a 34 carb. look at the speedo, 100~120kph (maybe) so he's in the 60's and absolutely wringing its neck.

you can absolutely build a brilliant bike without spending a ton of cash, but again, there's that pesky compromise involved. and in this case, that's probably money.

you want hooligan state power wheelies and feeling like you're riding a nuclear powered BMX bike that does 80mph? back up the brinks truck

something that makes decent power, is fun around town but tours well and is capable of 70's and isn't actively trying to kill you while riding? much easier done.

but bottom line, you're not getting that big dumb power without spending a whole ass pile of money. you can create that "experience" with a lesser set up that's an absolute hoot to ride around town, but it won't tour well.

So you want to build two motors now?

In your dirt bike experience, how many sub-200cc bikes are great with these two separate categories? Not sure why you think a smallframe will do both either.

Egig will not be a screamer, but it'll shit all over the one in the video.

Just one engine that's able to do both, unless it's either one or the other.

But yes, something to rip around on (sport I think its called?). Hopefully my lack of full knowledge with Vespa tuning isn't annoying anyone. As I said, I don't know a whole lot, but I do know most of the "basics" if you will.

I do appreciate everyone's advice and pointers.

Aaron, you said you came from a dirtbike background. 2 or 4 stroke? And what bike do you currently ride?

I'm still thinking you need Egig 170/180.
With right choose of gear box, primary and exhaust it can suit your wishes better than M200.
And like a bonus is reliability, easy assembling and less costs.

I'm also have 600cc dirt bike. And I rode lot of different powerful bikes in the past. But smallie with 170 it is absolutely another league. If you want it will do wheelies and can be really quick. Or you can relax and cruise at 50-80-90 km/h around town. Do 220+220 km on highway? Absolutely without problems.
And no matter how it ride it brings grin on your face.
I'm totally in love with this engine. And Erich is genius!

How do you rate VMC?


A smallie has as was mentioned the lightness as secret weapon. This makes it inherently most suited for nimble stuff and accelerations. Top speed and touring are always going to be compromised by this and relative.

Also mentioned is gearing. There are only 4 to play with and with small cylinder capacity the width of the power band is always going to be relative and ... only 4 gears. Even my quite grunty P200E does not like the 4th gear.

The way Í read this (highly enjoyable and informative thread) is that it is ALL about perspective and expectations.

LÓVE the ´laws of compromise´ btw.

IMHO the best available parts on the market today on price/quality/performance ratio. Just keep in mind that only VMC Kappa and SIP can be mount straight to the original cases. All other VMC kits will need to machining cylinder mounting surface on cases. My Special 170 hold road much better than my P. Even on higher speeds. There is no problems on 120 km/h on Special, but P starts to scare me from 105 km/h
Both 'em have YSS X-pro shocks. Short 4th is the answer.

VMC makes okay stuff. I think it's good entry level and with some love can hold its own. good value for money and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for a low key build.

btw, there's a few 5spd set ups for small frame. they are *spendy* though.

Thanks.

VMC Kappa is as far as my aspirations go.

The 4th gear I should have changed when the case was split Was not aware of it at the time Will live with it.

What I meant to explain concerning the speed/touring of a smally or rather any NSM is that it is not a motorbike and inherently compromised by the concept: Even if you would spend the money on making it reliably fast(er) over longer distances, it still is a none too ergonomic old scoot with 10" rims.

As such I would prefer to spend some on reducing weight, unsprung weight; lightweight wheels, lightweight exhaust etc. rather than on more top speed.
The smally being so light means that wheels/unsprung weight should make a húge difference. Even on a 1k kg car a few kgs on the wheels is noticeable.
Like

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/wheel-rim-bgm-pro-tubeless-2.10-10-inch-aluminium-vespa-type-px-vespa-smallframe-v50-50n-special-pv-et3-pk50-125-s/xl/xl2-largeframe-px-t5-sprint-rally-gt/gtr-lml-star-deluxe-silver-with-groove-bgm7989sgr?number=BGM7989SGR

and here are the ones on my P:

Introduction from Andalucía (Post 2714679)

but am not familiar though if such is common/more widely available for scoots.

The OP should be quite familiar with the latter effects on performance.

I wasn't aware this topic had moved into the "Infinite Budget" portion of the show.

Of course, OP is already wanting a motor that violates the laws of engineering and physics, so I see no reason why we wouldn't throw economics out the window, too.

No one's mentioned mpg and tank range either. Presumably something with a 30/32mm carb is going to be pretty frugal, probably around 100 miles to the gallon?

Even with a dr130 my range was only about 60 miles per tank. They sell long range tanks but not too many options.

I've always been a 2 stroke guy, and currently I ride a KTM 125.

I very well may just end up going with an Egig 170 based on all the feedback.

If I decide on buying that PK and put in a 170 in it, besides the crank and bigger carb, anything regarding gearing that would need to be changed, or any welding or porting on the stock cases?

I mean, if you're asking me to spend somebody else's money I've got to be thorough.

more likely around 50 a tank, maybe.

yes.

here's a build from our very own and amazing poidog

PK50XL neglected project -> Egig w/ SmartCarb

there's a ton of info here on the forum just plug egig170 into the search feature.

Something like this for example.

No welding or porting is need. Only cut a bit on the ignition dust cover.

How were you able to save and share items added to the cart on SIP?

Also, since the engine on the PK has been fully rebuilt, are new bearings and seals necessary? What about the current Simonini pipe that's on it?

Are you by chance able to identify what ignition is currently on it, and if I should change it out to a SIP Vape?