Modern Vespa

jess

I am not trough the full thread, but past your first page provided background.

I love coffe, but am not drinking it anymore, as I am staying away from coffeine as it alters my rem-sleep too much.

I tried a lot regarding brewing coffee and I have to tell you, that I had crazy good results with cold-"brewing" coffe.

Big pitcher, preferably with a lid to close it
1/4 - 1/2 gallon
let it soak for a minimum of 16 hrs
Stir it occasionally

The grounds will settle at th bottom eventually, just don't stir it the moment you are going to put yourself a cup.

This way, you intensively extract the flavours without activating the acidity, and the low level of bitterness is just crazy.

Warm it up a bit in the microwave, or add it to hot foamed milk - perfect.

I loved it.

You can keep it like this in the fridge for up to 3 days and pour yourself a cup whenever you feel like it.

It misses a bit the techy tinkering which you can have with all sorts of coffe related accessories, but at least your grinder will still be an important part of the process.

Side note: trough the slow extraction process and long soaking time: caffeine level will be high.

Enjoy

You've had your morning coffee but still are mixing units?

That's about 2 x 3 times the amount of coffee I use so looked up ideal ratios. I'm a lightweight.

The two cups I have on the weekend last me the whole week!😆

Just a follow-up: My family had a destination get-together last week in Quebec City. I brought my supertaster testing kit with me, and one evening we all sat down together and I administered the test to all of them.

The results were interesting: most of my family is some kind of supertaster, ranging from standard supertaster to recessive supertaster to dominant supertaster (those with two copies of the gene).

My niece (who really wanted to do the test more than anyone else) has had sensory overload issues her whole life -- food is too spicy, or too bitter, or just generally too strong. It turns out she is a dominant supertaster. Her dad (my brother) is also a dominant supertaster. Her mother is a recessive supertaster.

(I think my niece has unusually strong olfactory senses as well, so she gets a double-whammy on unpleasantness from a wide range of foods).

All of us find black coffee to be bitter, across the board.

I make the moka pot, using Illy coffee. Then I froth milk with my milk frother and add demerara sugar sprinked on top. A slight swirl is performed and voila.

Thought I'd drop this here. I replaced my $100 Breville kettle with a $20 Chef's Choice because of the spout. The temp control, if accurate, is granular to 1º, so that's cool.

It heats water and the pour is really nice. And if it's good enough for Chef, it's good enough for me.

I am of European decent, ( German mostly) and find it interesting that our DNA has so much to do with our taste buds. I donot like bitter, and I cannot stand cilantro-(soap, as in Dial bar soap). Ask me how I know that.

How do you know that?

Cursing when at a young age , the bar soap tactic is widely used. Not sure about other brands but Dial bar soap ( the yellow one) has distinct flavor ( not good, and a taste you don't forget very soon). I sure other have fell to this same ( fix) for language abuse.

Just now seeing this thread for the first time.

My answer is B4.

To be more specific, I hate all coffee and coffee-flavored items, including coffee-flavored beers.

However, I do love the smell of coffee while it's brewing.

I suspect this is not about your ability to taste bitterness. Or not just that, anyway.

(Feel free to elaborate if you like).

I like my coffee black ("hot, black, and first thing in the morning"). I don't find black coffee, appropriately brewed, to be bitter. I think Americans got used to using less grounds during the Depression and never came back to full flavor. I suspect this makes the bitternness from overextraction stick out. Similar to pre-Prohibition beer and the exceptional light lager that dominates the US market. Which segues into your next question....

IPA proper is fine, although not something I drink regularly. IPA as practiced by many microbreweries appears to be a measuring contest to see who can jam the most IBU into an otherwise-respectable and historical style. Stunt brewing.

While I gravitate toward less hoppy styles (weizen, berliners, farmhouse, mild, etc) they do have enough lupulin to balance out the sweetness of the grain bill.

So true. I don't see the point in boasting about the highest ABV either - FFS keep it to less than 5%, I want to quench my thirst, not fall over after just two pints!

Surely there's a market for various strengths, if I'm out on the beer for several hours with the lads then a session IPA of around 4% is ideal.

A couple of cans or bottles at home or a quick two hour catch down the pub requires a higher ABV to relax the body after a day of work and stress.

I agree - but many US breweries don't make any IPAs under 6 or 7%. And no, I don't want one with grapefruit, mango, watermelon or dog forbid pineapple in it.

Founder's Everyday IPA is brilliant.

LINK

My favourite in the US! Just in front of Lagunitas All Day IPA.

Bought it for the can because I had one.

I go back because it's awesome. Made right here in Grand Rapids, MI.

"Genu-ine imitation wood siding" Fun.

If I were to pick any of my cars to have back ... that would be the one, hands down. Sadly, at that point in my life, I could not afford to fix and drive it at the same time.

I honestly haven't read the thread. I simply responded to the first post.

I did see your question about IPAs just now, though. I also do not like them, as they are too bitter.

My older brother loves black coffee and IPAs. My dad and younger brother like black coffee. Not sure how my dad feels about IPAs, as he no longer drinks alcohol, but my younger brother does not like IPAs. Our mother does not like coffee, either.

When I get more freetime, I'll revisit the thread and see what you have to say about bitter tasting.

It's not super important -- I was just idly wondering if your dislike of coffee wasn't about the bitterness, since you say you dislike all things coffee flavored. Coffee ice cream, for instance, isn't usually bitter. Nor is coffee candy. Or any well-sweetened coffee, in fact.

Yeah, it's about the flavor of coffee in general. Coffee flavored Jelly Bellies always piss me off, because I can't tell if it's chocolate or coffee flavored without tasting it. I usually give the coffee flavored ones to my wife, and most of the time I end up guessing wrong.

I get it. I personally really like the flavor of coffee (with plenty of cream and sweetener) but the bitterness puts me off of black coffee. Mostly, in this thread I was trying to get to the heart of whether black-coffee drinkers like the bitterness, or like coffee in spite of the bitterness, or just don't taste the bitterness at all.

That said, it's still interesting to hear other variations, like yours, of just disliking coffee altogether.

Question ... have you ever been to a really good coffee house and tried a great cup of black coffee? Forget places like Starbucks ... they actually scorch their beans for shelf life. I mean, it's a stupid question, because I'm sure you have. But there is a lot of black coffee that I consider to be undrinkable because of its bitterness or acidity. I have a friend who thinks he makes really good "Maxwell House" coffee.

And I'm sure, having spent time in Europe, you'v been exposed to some great espresso and some most excellent coffees.

I just wanted to compartmentalize the difference between good black coffee and bitter brown crap. Because there is a distinction there.

Yep. I've had multiple different varieties of black coffee (including making it myself, and trying everything to reduce the bitterness). I've had black coffee made with the fabled Clover machine, pour-overs, Chemex, French press, Aeropress, espresso, and everything in between. I've tried black coffee (mostly espresso) in Portugal, Spain, and Italy, and of course the US.

It's all bitter. Every time. The quality is certainly a factor. However, what I think a lot of people don't fully comprehend about this subject is that not everyone tastes bitter the same way, or to the same degree.

So yes, after absorbing the feedback in this thread, I fully believe there are people out there that think black coffee does not taste bitter, and are perplexed by my complaints about it. When faced with this seeming contradiction between their own perception of black coffee and my reported dislike of the bitterness therein, the natural response is to blame the quality of the coffee. But I assure you that I have sampled a very wide variety of black coffee, in a wide variety of settings and styles and roasts.

To me, it's all bitter. Because that's the way my taste buds are wired. Some are more bitter, some are definitely less bitter, but some level of baseline bitterness is constant.

(I should also point out that some are much more flavorful than others, in spite of the bitterness).

What's fascinating (to me) are the small subset of people who agree that black coffee is bitter, but like it in spite of the bitterness.

I taste all the bitter (based on the test strips) and mostly like it or at least don't dislike it. But then I like riding dirt/gravel roads on my scooter, so maybe I'm just a masochist after all.

There is one bitter taste that I really don't like and that's bitter almond. I find most (but not all) sherry to be undrinkable due to this taste.

I like pour over coffee , Hario V60.

But, will be experimenting with the Syphon method very shortly.

Will post up some (chemistry type) images, and my subjective tasting note.

And I think that is the key. It's partly flavor preference. I'll give you an example.

I can't eat olives. I think olives are one of the coolest foods ever. I use olive oil all the time. But I can't. Eat. Olives.

I wish I could. I even try again from time to time. I even went to a local Italian grocer here in town. Russo's. They are a highly respected Italian family with ties to the food and wine industry in Italy dating back to the 1700s. They've been open in GR since 1902. I say that just to establish their credibility.

They have an olive bar. I asked them to help me find an olive I might like. Even the olives they say people who dislike olives like ... I couldn't eat them. It's the flavor. I just don't like it. No matter how they are prepared.

So, while people may taste bitterness to differing degrees, some of it simply could come down to the fact that certain people like the bitter flavor, even though they taste it equally.

Thi has been a really interesting thread.

GPT makes sense on this.

You said:
do some people taste bitterness more intensely?

ChatGPT said:
Yes, some people do taste bitterness more intensely than others — and this is largely due to genetics.

Here's why:
The TAS2R38 gene is responsible for sensitivity to certain bitter compounds, like PTC (phenylthiocarbamide) and PROP (6-n-propylthiouracil).

People have different versions (alleles) of this gene:

"Taster" alleles make people highly sensitive to bitter compounds.

"Non-taster" alleles result in little or no perception of bitterness.

Three general categories exist:
Non-tasters – Don't really taste certain bitter compounds.

Medium tasters – Taste some bitterness, but not intensely.

Supertasters – Taste bitterness very strongly and may find foods like broccoli, kale, coffee, dark chocolate, or grapefruit very unpleasant.

Supertasters:
Often have more taste buds or a denser concentration of them.

May also be more sensitive to other tastes, like sweetness or spiciness.

Tend to avoid bitter vegetables, alcohol, or strong black coffee.

Environmental and cultural factors also matter:
Repeated exposure to bitter foods can reduce perceived bitterness over time.

Culture and upbringing affect taste preferences and tolerances.

So yes — genetic differences in taste receptors and taste bud density are the key reasons why some people find bitterness overwhelming while others barely notice it.

You said:
Is it possible, though, for supertasters to actually enjoy the bitterness of foods, simply out of preference?

ChatGPT said:
Yes, absolutely — even supertasters can enjoy bitter foods, despite experiencing bitterness more intensely than others.

How is that possible?
1. Bitterness is not always unpleasant
Bitterness is just one of the five basic tastes (along with sweet, sour, salty, and umami). While it can signal toxicity in nature, in culinary contexts it can add complexity and depth. Some people — even supertasters — come to associate bitterness with sophistication, richness, or quality, especially in:

Coffee

Dark chocolate

IPA beers

Radicchio, arugula, kale

Tonic water

Certain cheeses

2. Preference isn't purely genetic
While genes set the baseline, taste preferences are shaped by experience, habits, and culture. Supertasters might initially find bitter foods intense, but:

With repeated exposure, they can build tolerance and eventually associate bitterness with positive experiences (e.g., a strong espresso in the morning).

They might learn to pair bitter flavors with other tastes (fat, salt, acid, sweetness) that balance or enhance the experience.

3. Other sensory factors help
Bitterness is rarely experienced in isolation. Aroma, texture, temperature, and visual presentation also influence perception. A bitter vegetable roasted with olive oil and garlic, for instance, is a very different experience than eating it raw.

4. Bitterness can signal quality or maturity
Some bitter flavors are acquired tastes — and people often come to enjoy them as they associate them with adulthood, complexity, or cultural value (e.g., appreciating a dry wine, dark chocolate, or Negroni cocktail).

In short: Even if supertasters sense more bitterness, that doesn't mean they dislike it. Like with any taste, enjoyment is a mix of biology, experience, and context.

I think people who like bitter black coffee may do so because that's how they think "good coffee" is supposed to taste.

It's like with beer. I've met many people who claim to dislike beer. When I talk to them about it, I learn that they have only had beer once in their life, and it was a shitty mass-produced beer, usually in a party setting, so it wasn't served at the proper temperature. I tell them it's like wine - there are so many different types of beer available, that there's probably a type out there that they would like, it just takes time to find it.

There might be a coffee that I'd like. The right bean (or combination of beans), roasted and brewed a specific way, may produce the perfect cup of coffee for me. But I have neither the desire nor the time to find that out. I'd rather get my caffeine fix via Dr Pepper Zero Sugar or Coke Zero. I find this list interesting.

I dislike coffee, most IPAs, and arugula.
I haven't had enough experiences with tonic water to have an opinion on it.
I love dark chocolate, and am aware that simply saying "dark chocolate" means nothing, because it all comes down to the cacao percentage. Every variety I've tried has been great.
And I haven't run across a cheese that I didn't like.

My older brother used to have to prepare his coffee so that it was essentially coffee-flavored sweetened milk. Now he drinks it black. Part of that, I'm sure, is because his wife is from Seattle, and they own a high-end coffee shop-level espresso machine. (I want to say it's a Breville, but every high-end machine looks alike to me.) But, he also pretty much only drinks IPAs, the higher the IBU rating, the better.

As it happens, I have opinions about olives, too. I have found that, for my own preference, Spanish olives reign supreme in the olive world. I've tried Italian olives, Portuguese olives, Greek olives, and even American olives. The ones from Spain are noticeably better than all the others. And honestly, I have no idea why -- though I suspect that the Spanish processing / preserving process might be different.

These olives, in particular, have a much different flavor (and are IMHO more agreeable) than any you've likely tried elsewhere. Though I don't recommend you buy them from Amazon, as they are grossly overpriced there. If you can find them locally (say, in a gourmet grocery store) give them a shot. They come in a variety of flavors (stuffed with various things, like cheese, or anchovies, or pimentos, or cured ham, etc -- though honestly, for this brand, what they are stuffed with seems to make little difference in flavor).

I asked my wife about her coffee preferences, because she does drink coffee, but also dislikes IPAs.

Oddly enough, she said that she went to La Madeleine this morning for coffee & a croissant. They asked if she wanted American or French roast, and she went with American, figuring it would be less bitter. She was wrong.

She said she generally prefers lattes, due to bitterness issues. So no, she does not like black coffee.

She also has the cilantro = soap gene.
I, on the other hand, simply dislike the flavor of cilantro. It tastes horrible to me, but at least it doesn't taste like soap.

Agreed, interesting to me as well.

I like bitter, but it has been a learning and growing journey. Black coffee was terrible to me when I was younger. I always had cream, but rarely sweetener. Over the years, for a variety of reasons, I've migrated to and enjoy black coffee.

Can't say I liked beer when I first tried it, but I started with milder beers, but grew to appreciate IPAs (though its popularity in the United States annoys and baffles me as there's so much more to enjoy...and I still prefer a stout). Amaro and Campari were also products I reflexively declined until I didn't. Same with dark chocolate.

My partner joked I've become a bitter old man. I've really just embraced my bitter taste buds in my bitter experience in life.

I forgot to mention when looking at seamus26's list that I love kale. It kinda baffled me that it was included in the same entry as arugula, because the flavors of the two are so different.

My wife makes a salad with kale, and if you sprinkle it with sea salt and bruise it a little, it takes a lot of the bitterness out.

I use it as a base in smoothies all the time. But it's also loaded with berries and ginger and carrots and stuff.

Black coffee appears to have a positive effect on human mortality. Adding cream and/or sugar appears to counter that effect.
I drink about four cups of black coffee in the morning, but the coffee has to be good quality. I don't think I could down four cups of Maxwell House or Folgers out of the percolator that's been bubbling for two hours. I'm not loyal to any particular brand or roast, and I think part of enjoying black coffee is figuring out how to make it so you like it. I would be an A1 or A3 answer, depending on the coffee.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S002231662500286X?via%3Dihub

Nutritional Epidemiology
Coffee Consumption and Mortality among United States Adults: A Prospective Cohort Study

Abstract
Background
Although coffee consumption has been associated with a variety of health benefits, it remains unclear whether the addition of sugar and saturated fat modifies these effects.
Objectives
This study aimed to examine the relationship between coffee intake, including the amount of added sugar and saturated fat, and mortality among United States adults.
Methods
We conducted a prospective cohort study using data from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey from 1999 to 2018, linked to National Death Index Mortality Data. The study included 46,222 adults aged 20 y and older who completed valid first-day 24-h dietary recalls. Coffee consumption was categorized by type (caffeinated or decaffeinated) and by sugar (<2.5 g per 8-oz), and saturated fat content (<1 g per 8-oz). Mortality outcomes included all-cause, cancer, and cardiovascular disease (CVD) mortality. Cox proportional hazards models were used to estimate hazard ratios (HRs) and 95% confidence intervals (CIs) for mortality risk based on type, intake levels (nondrinkers, <1 cup/d, 1 to <2 cups/d, 2 to <3 cups/d, and ≥3 cups/d) and the amount of added sugar and saturated fat.
Results
Over a median follow-up of 9.3–11.3 y, a total of 7074 deaths occurred, including 1176 cancer-specific and 1089 CVD-specific deaths. Higher coffee consumption was associated with lower all-cause mortality [HR (95% CI): 0.89 (0.78, 1.02) for < 1 cup/d; 0.84 (0.77, 0.92) for 1 to <2 cups/d; 0.83 (0.75, 0.93) for 2 to <3 cups/d; and 0.85 (0.77, 0.95) for ≥3 cups/d; P-trend = 0.004]. However, the mortality benefits were restricted to black coffee [HR (95% CI): 0.86 (0.77, 0.97)] and coffee with low added sugar and saturated fat content [HR (95% CI): 0.86 (0.75, 0.99)].
Conclusions
The health benefits of coffee consumption may be diminished when sugar and saturated fat are added.

But wait, there's more...

https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/a-massive-new-harvard-study-says-this-is-what-happens-to-women-who-drink-coffee-every-day/91202524

https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/want-to-live-longer-science-says-drink-more-coffee-even-this-insane-amount.html

They lost me forever at Jalapeno Jicama Stout.

Beer is made from four ingredients. If a brewpub can't make a decent beer with those ingredients, they start adding crap to it.

We have one of those places within walking distance of my house.

Brass Ring Brewery

Four ingredient beer, Cask Marque certified.

In my opinion, beer and cheese are two of the most amazing foods Man has learned to make. They are the dogs of food. Same basic ingredients, and look at how many choices there are. You can breed any two dogs, blend any two cheeses, pour in one glass any two beers, and the result is usually not as good as what you started with, although there are rare exceptions, like the Black and Tan, but not the Labradoodle.