Modern Vespa

Most of the times it'll just crank indefinitely like it does in this video https://photos.app.goo.gl/KqMX2mQn5s1G2VuH9 until I let go and start it again, the second time it always starts right up. I've held it down for as long as 10 seconds it feels like it would go forever

Battery is fine. I'm letting the it fully boot up. It's got 1300 miles. Garage kept.

I didn't wanna bring it into the dealership because I just knew deep down inside that it wasn't gonna happen when it was inside there garage . That's exactly what happened. They held it for a week and they said it started up for them every single time and they ran all their diagnostics and couldn't find anything. Just left me with a diagnostic bill. The day after I brought it home this happened same exact starting problem.

I'm not sure what to do if I bring it back they're just gonna say that there's nothing they can do unless they can replicate the issue. Even if they did, I'm not sure what they would do all the diagnostics come back "ok"

I guess I'm just looking for somebody to tell me that it's OK and I just need to learn to love my Vespa by the way it is

This is definitely NOT normal, it should start on the first start attempt.

Since it turns smoothly when you try to start it and starts without any problems on the second attempt, I think you can rule out the battery.

Unfortunately, the video is not very informative as you have chosen a very small section.

Do you turn the throttle grip when trying to start (which you should NOT do!)? Which brake lever are you pulling? Does the brake light come on when the attempt to start is unsuccessful? Try the other one too!

Even if I don't suspect this to be the cause: do you hear the fuel pump when you switch on the ignition? Only start when the whirring of the fuel pump has stopped!

I have a 2024 GTV too; 1100 miles; very same starting issue; aggravating

Evaporative emissions system issue....? And fix??

Oof, I just bought a '24 GTV and am curious as to the fix if I ever encounter it. Hope you figure it out!

I had a similar problem, starting my 23 super sport. Left it at Scooterwest for a week. Robot and crew found the valves too tight, and this was way before it needed its first valve adjustment. I forget if it was 2000 or 4000 miles, I'll check my records. They were either set tight, at the factory, or just got tight due to some metallurgical reason. Bike has 16 K on it now, haven't had an issue. Valves have been checked a few times since, they were fine.

Cold start problems put valves at or near the top of the list. Shouldn't be a problem right out of the factory, but then again you could say that about a lot of issues. Rare doesn't mean nonexistent.

It's a PITA getting to the valves, but if that's the problem, it's a relatively easy fix.

Here is the less cut up video https://photos.app.goo.gl/XFVJmaAVDaQ7ujhk8

Ok, this is going to sound weird, and maybe it doesn't apply. But maybe it does.

My wife's Buddy 170 is fuel injected. Depending on the order in which I turn off the kill switch and turn on the key I can hear the fuel pump prime the engine. One way works, the other not so much. It WILL start either way, it just starts more reliably if I listen for the pump buzz for that couple of seconds before I hit the start button.

Not being at the bike I can't remember which is the better order.

Again, I don't know how the GTV works.

And would tight valves show up on a compression check, as they wouldn't be sealing up properly?

I don't see anything you're doing fundamentally wrong.

In my opinion, however, the second attempt also takes a moment too long before the Vespa starts.

Please try the following:
- Try right brake lever instead of left on first
- Shorten the first start attempt -> does the Vespa then start on the second attempt in the same way as in the video?
- Do NOT switch off the Vespa with the emergency stop switch, use the knob -> does anything change on the next start attempt?

Please answer the following questions:
If it was running once, you turn it off (via the rotary knob and/or emergency stop switch) and then start it again directly / after an hour / a longer time, is the behavior different?

Agree valves too tight creates this type starting problem. Not often on new, but happens. Seen a lot on early 1980s bikes ( especially non Japanese brand bikes)having valve recession due to switching over to unleaded gasoline. The valve/and or valve seat material from the 1970s, could not handle the loss of lead and heat. Once that was changed, problem went away.

Thanks for all the replies about valve clearance. I guess I'll watch a few videos on it and check them out myself because I don't think I'll be able to convince the dealership to check them and have it warrantied

Is valve clearance check part of the 600 mi service?

Ok, my bad. The Maint chart on this forum Wiki specifies 12000 miles. However a compression test cold/ hot should tell.

Not on liquidcooled engines in Largeframes, but on aircooled on Smallframes it is.

Response to Dustin....

Thanks for your advice. On my 2024 GTV, this non-start behavior only happens when starting from cold (but happens every single time). Then, when starting from warm, starts instantly,first try.

I never use the kill switch (thankfully) and always wait for the scoot to complete the "Welcome" status completely, then turn on bike, attempt to start.

My scoot is garaged, pampered, best fuel, 1,100 miles; my third new Vespa, none of which had the same issue.

Any advice leading to a solution would help and be appreciated

I purchased a BV400 a week ago. It was located in Sodus,NY. Had it shipped here to Bama. Hard to start cold. Very light sputters when going uphill, which I prolly wouldn't have noticed had the start issue not made me pay more attention. Discussed this with a fellow (local) BV owner and we checked for vapor lock, spark plug, and rehashed what we read on this thread.
Called the dealer to have it looked at. He couldn't see me until today.
I asked about valves & he dismissed valves as an issue immediately.
So, after all the discussing & calls, I refilled with fuel and rode a little. Got up this morning and recorded the start since the the BV would be warm upon arrival at shop.
Started right up as it should have. Oh well, BV knew I had the camera out. Started the hour drive to the shop and the BV ran as smooth as glass.
I arrived at the shop and the sales man asked why I was there. I said to see the shop about the bike spitting & sputtering. He said, it's the NY gas, it'll stop when you refill. I told him I'd just refilled yesterday and after a few miles it did stop but I thought it was just my luck coming to the shop.
It's been one long week with the issue but now after changing fuel, it's perfect.

Long winded way of saying I had the same symptoms and it was the fuel.

I'd be checking those valve clearances right away!

The 125 Leader engines were the ones which almost always needed the valves checking within a few thousand miles from new. Poor starting or poor cold running afflicted nearly every one until that was done.

I don't see a relation between valve clearance and the phenomenon Dustinthe brain describes.

First cold start: engine rotates but does not fire up.
Wait a few seconds, then second attempt: fires up immediately.

What did change between the first and the second attempt? For sure not the valve clearance.

...does the ECU enrich the mixture when starting cold?
Or should it??

I was quoting Mitleider, not dustinthe brain. Mitleider only has a problem starting when the engine is cold. First step when that happens is check the valve clearances...

OK, but can you explain to me that relation with valve clearance?

Of course it should do.

Maybe Clampett's reaction makes much sense: "Long winded way of saying I had the same symptoms and it was the fuel."

One of the explanations in the difference between the first and the second starting attempt is that fuel was injected in the engine and was given some time to evaporize, making it more ampt to burn at the second attempt.

I don't know US gasoline standards: is it according to the same standards as in the EU?
All reactions reporting the same issue are US, non from EU. Is EU fuel maybe more volatile?

US fuel is much the same as EU - most of it is 'up to' 10% ethanol. The standard US octane for the scooters is 91 [(RON +MON)/2] - directly equivalent to EU 95 RON.

So just as easy to ignite.

Valve clearances come into play with this too - if not enough fuel gets sucked in first time round, a second attempt will be necessary.

The ECU doesn't keep trying to pump fuel in when trying to start - just enough for the first two rotations. No point in running the starter any more after that, just turn off, re-prime and try again.

In the U.S. market, perhaps unlike ROW, Piaggio installs an Evaporative Emissions Recovery system which routes gasoline vapors from the tank to a canister which stores then releases these hydrocarbons to be burned along with injected fuel when the engine operates.

I may have butchered that description....

The way it's been designed, when refueling and nearing completion of the fill, any raw gasoline which overflows, (a common Vespa issue) routes to the same emissions canister.

Some people conjecture this system is what causes cold start issues in the U.S. and some remove the hardware altogether

Any thoughts?

The overfill problem comes into its own while the engine is running, as the tank can't vent properly. The give-away is an inrush of air when the gas cap is removed.

I can't see a way it'd cause a non-start.

while checking the valves could also check the decompressor on the end of the cam. maybe it's sticking and takes two attempts? hmm, not pushing the idea just don't have a great answer.

So many thoughtful, kind hearted replies. Thank you to all.

I usually do hear the suction or wish of air when I remove my gas cap.

I tried the right brake lever and it started right up. Crazy but I need to test it more to know if that was it or not. I still want to go for the valve clearance check but it's a lot of work. If anybody happens to know the part list that I need to do this, that would be great. Otherwise I'll start googling 🥹

Keep an eye on this. Strange...

With Vespa, the start release is given via the brake light switch. So if the circuit for the brake light is not closed, you cannot start. Now also observe whether the brake light also lights up when the brake lever is pulled.

Can you say anything about switching off via the knob (instead of the emergency stop switch)?

Did you shorten the first start attempt during the unsuccessful attempts? Does the Vespa still start on the second attempt?

It could also be the valve clearance. If I were you, I would still check all the operating options first before carrying out any mechanical work.

As for turning off, I've done both sometimes I use the knob sometimes I use to kill switch. Usually, I'll hold it in for either 5 to 6 seconds or 10 seconds either way it always starts up on the second time right away. I tried with the right break again today and it didn't start up so that's not it anyway.

So it looks like I'll be checking my valve clearances but before I do this by myself. Does anybody have any ideas on how I can convince the dealership to do this under warranty? I already paid them the diagnostic fee, I doubt they're going to take apart the bike and promise not to charge me for it.

In my opinion, it should be sufficient to show the dealer the second video. Ask for the money back for the first diagnosis! There is a defect that should be covered by the warranty. The fact that you provide him with a solution is nice but irrelevant.

It really upsets me when dealerships / service centers "do work" and charge you for it without actually fixing the issue you brought it in for.

IMHO, if their "work" doesn't correct the problem, that's on them and you shouldn't have to pay for it.

In a perfect world, anyway.


EDIT : In their defense it looks like they couldn't replicate the problem, reading the OP again.

Yes, but if there is a problem that is solvable under warranty, then the diagnosis must also be free of charge, even if the first attempt at diagnosis was not successful.

Absolutely agreed!

They should not be charging you a diagnostic fee, if its a 2024 it is still under the OEM warranty. I would find another dealer and have a conversation with whomever sold you the Vespa, that person should go to bat for you to address your concerns...