Modern Vespa

Greetings reader,

time to commit. After months (years?) of half-baked plans, casual tinkering, and the occasional existential crisis brought on by seized bolts and questionable wiring, I've decided to give my long-suffering weekend warrior the thread it deserves.



Meet LML Frankendrak – a 150N in it's core, (otherwise known as NV150, Star, Stella, Indian PX...) that's been commuting, limping, and generally soldiering on despite years of neglect, half-hearted bodges, and an ever-growing list of "I'll sort that later."

The plan? A restomod + street sleeper = something that should look like it just rolled off of a questionable used bike sales lot, spat 'n' polished, but should pull like a mule and make just enough noise along the way to make neighbor's dog nervous.

I won't give away too much just yet, but suffice to say that a few parts are already on the imaginary bench. What I will mention is that I've already had one of those "a-ha" moments when I realised the chosen 13" wheels might need some... persuasion to fit. Compliments of some more experienced NSM users . More on that.

This build is for fun, for weekend commuting, and the occasional escape when the weather cooperates and the rear end doesn't rattle loose. I've got more tools than I know hown to properly use, I've got some time, and I've got a perfectly(?) fine scooter that I'll now proceed to tear apart in the name of progress.

I invite you to stay tuned and question my logic. Or don't. If you do, find yourself warned, ⚠️ triggers ahead ⚠️!

The ever growing list of what's wrong with my motoring madness currently lists at:

- engine is leaking oil all over
- clutch slips under load
- gear selector inaccurate
- swingarm bushings are shot
- electrics are all over (turn signals, switches, fuel level, instrument cluster...)
- front drum out of round
- all three wheels are bent
- brake and clutch levers are worn
- cables are stiff and snagging
- glovebox and seat don't lock
- floor is bent

Possibly I forgot a few things...

All is well then 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Welcome to NSM!

Your bike actually looks really good, IMO. I wouldn't call it something that just rolled off a questionable lot at all.

Of course, having had more than one bike that matches this plan, including my Stella which I've had since new that is currently sitting unfairly neglected while the shinier bikes get all the love, I'm here for this.

Following!

Following too!!

Not least of all for tne amusing wordsmithery

Welcome to the forum! You will fit right in here with your motivation and goals

I have a 2009 Stella that is probably near where you want yours to end up. I have owned it for almost 5 years and I have been slowly upgrading it and fixing it up the whole time, learning from experience every step of the way. (for those who remember where I left off with mine; got a bunch of new goodies since my last thread, will make a new build progress thread once I've got it all sorted out )

That light blue is gorgeous!!

Thanks, and thanks.

Looks can be deceiving, which can be said for many of second hand vehicles available locally, especially the ones on car lots. 😁 This particular scooter is a prime example, hiding pretty much everything that is wrong with it, behind its looks. But I'm off to change that, hopefully successfully and without fortunes spent in vain.

So I've already mentioned that for this particular restomod, I will try to fit 13" wheels. I've made very detailed (well, detailed in my mind at least) measurements, and have come to realisation that I'm missing some space. Basically what I want to avoid is this:


Look at this offset, looks horrible to me 😁


Same here


And here.

You get the idea. But this is if course due to a fact that the original PX fork is not destined to house a wide wheel. Someone had asked why didn't I opt for a fork that allows space. The reason is purely aesthetic. All forks that I'm aware are suitable for it, have the wheel facing the other way. I prefer that the face of both wheels remain as per factory on the left side.



Here you can see the crude "fitment" on the front, which prompted me to do in detail measurements. Overall, the 13x3 wheel fits, but without the tire. Wheel's dimension is nearly identical to that of the 3.5 original tire, which then mandates another 10mm of space to be produced in order for the 110/70 tire to fit without rubbing. If you're wondering about the broom, it's there to hold the steering head straight-ish. 😁

On the rear, the situation is far worse (not pictured unfortunately). Crude measurements have revealed that there is about 10-12mm of clearance between the rear tire and the shock absorber. About 3/4 of that between the tire and engine casing. This means that in order to fit a 140/60R13 tire, the common 1/2" of swingarm mod may not suffice. 😐 Selected tire requires ~1" of extra space, in order for the wheel to remain in the centre plane and line up with the front. I crudely calculate that 1/2 swingarm mod may give me about 17mm clearance to shock, which then pushes the wheel 8mm off centre. I've read on SIP (I think) that this is negligible, but admittedly I'm not a fan. I'm more inclined to offset the engine by 3/4" which may be a bit too much, but remains to be seen after I make detailed measurements. Anyone got a 3d scan of the PX frame? 😁





Images used have been taken from the Vesparocknroll FB group

Thanks.

I think the colour choice of your Stella is far better than mine. I say this primarily because I like red. Also because my dumbphone camera is too smart to capture colours correctly, when it's challenged by more than one shade of blue at the time.

I wish my scoot looked really like what you see on the screen. Sadly, it's somewhere between the light blue seen on the photo and that garage door blue seen behind it. But, once I finish with steel work and repaint is due, I'm gunning for the shade illustrated, or a smidge lighter. My "decisiveness" will decide in due time. 😁

Yeah that was me. I suggested that to avoid cutting 10mm out of the side of a 40mm tube that holds your arse off the bitumen.

Just going to leave this here.
Yes it would look better without the funky reservoir.

Welcome.
There may be another solution worth considering.

It's going to sound far fetched at first - but it's kinda a simple and low cost one in reality. Just needs some digesting.

Your fork tube has a "lug" welded in at the bottom. This lug has the male shape that your swing arm "U" sandwiches when attached.

It's possible to grind the lugs weld at the tube (see picture) so that it can be removed, clocked slightly differently, then re welded.

The "clocking" change allows you to turn the fork so that it's offset becomes wider, then reset the "clocking" of the lug so that the wheel is straight.

Whodats chrome did this operation on his first of two recent builds to successfully center his front wheel.

You would need to mark its orientation before bringing it to a welder to re-weld.

The process would basically be to grind the weld, twist the lug so that it's aligned with center of the scoot when your fork is farther out to the side than from factory, then mark, disassemble, and bring the two parts to a welder.

The weld is not a difficult one - nor a particularly expensive one. This is a 15 min job for an experienced welder.
The first 13 minutes being set up and a cup of tea.

Thanks.

I saw the post in which MV Documentarista shows the mod. One of the NSM user was adamant that this must be done. Truth is, there's different ways to skin a cat.

Also truthfully told, my boney ass is still sitting on multitude of chairs, so I'm yet to decide on which direction to take. I'm pretty sure I'll document my idea regardless, even with possibility that I may go completely different route. Like putting a traditional "triple tree" upsidedown fork from a Ducati. 🤔 No, I won't be doing that truly... 😁

Sorry if I'm not understanding this correctly CM.
Basically the end point is where the swing arm and axle are removed and twisted relative to the rest of the fork? So, with the wheel pointing straight ahead, now the shock mount and steering stops are twisted relative to the frame?

The polished version of SIP tubeless 11x2.5 or 11x3.0 rims looks really cool. And you can threw in 110 or 120 tyre without any problems. There also SIP spacers in 1.5 mm and 2.5 mm thickness designed for their TL rims. So even 130 wideness is not a problem.

I had 11x2.5 rims with 110/70 on my P. And I really liked the look but not ride.

Do you really want this?

Truly awful.

Ooo, sassy... 😁

Interesting roland87, I find you most triggered by my idea, not sure why. I actually don't want other people's bikes. I want to make my own. And then if I don't like the way it comes out, then I'll change it. I already don't like the way Vespa rides (nothing to ruin there), that's why I'm changing the front to 13". I plan to house s nice 240mm brake disc in there, to start with, maybe even going to 256mm disc.

As long as it safe to ride... build whatever pleases

Personally id like the front and rear wheels from an old skool mini, driven by a 400cc motocross engine fastened to the floor tunnel


But I dont have tje skills to build it 😞

For one thing, I think that you're going to find it ruins the ride of the Vespa. I put 11" wheels on one of mine for a little while and it completely changed the handling. A little more stable at highway speeds, maybe, despite raising the center of gravity, but a LOT less nimble at road speeds and around town. Kind've ruined it, really. And they were a real pain to get fitted correctly, as you're now trying to engineer around.

So what I'm saying is 1) I think you're going to be disappointed; and 2) Don't do anything you can't back out of later (see #1).

I'm no visionary, but I dig what I envisioned. More details please... 🤠

Sound advice for life I'd say.

However if we talk about my LML, I see it just as a scooter. If it was a genuine Vespa, I'd be thinking twice about what I'm doing to it. Which I already am anyway, but I'd be more conservative with it, is what I'm saying.

Just for transparency, I'm not defending my choices because I think everyone should accept them. I just like a good banter. As long as we all laugh in the end, I call it success.

It is just IMHO, Rikko. You can do whatever you want with your scooter. I don't know nothing about your mechanical skills but judge on my and I understand that your idea need very much hard work but result can be very controversial with a high probability.

chandlerman my friend's Cosa 2 200 has 11" rims with 110/70 tires and I like the feel of this scooter. Especially on country roads and highways. It holds a straight line very well and doesn't even want that classic nimble from it.

Front wheel would be a 10" mini wheel for uber widness- fork link pivot to accommodate, with suspension mods to suit and zero front mudgaurd

Legshilelds trimmers to the bone
Floorboards left intact but rounded.. think harley footboard

400cx motocross small engine slung over the tunnel

Bars from steering column to engine mount position to act as cradle and provide support for swing arm taken from pitbike

Nodded pitbike solid wheel to accept mini 10" wheel

Widest 10" bike tyre i can find stretched over mini tubeless rims.

Seat location cut ro accept recessed "tractor" seat

Side panels thinnes down and added as pulling.. ideally tail wnd from each panel .. think 1" thinner at front to zero at back of side panel

Petrol tank placed over engine teardrop or fabbed to follow contour

Steering column shortened by 8"

Handle bars from bike to suit

I think you get the idea - go for a WTF is that approach

I have plenty of standard looking scooters... and enough wrecked parts too.. so put them to use on a proper fugly

Assuming you go for it, I'll be adding any assistance I can from behind my keyboard. Some of our greatest successes around here started like this, but so did some epic fails, too.

Either way, we're here for it. That sounds right. In my case, I realized after I'd done it that I wanted nimble more than holding a line at speed.

I guess AI did not understand the approach, but I like what it came up with 😁

Thanks for the "Not Real" caption. Very helpful.

Welcome to the forum from another Stella owner. Looking forward to your tears of agony progress.

Also, I went with the SIP tubeless rims on my P200E and was very happy with them.

There are lots of fans of the SIP Tubeless rims on here. I have multiple sets on both Vespas and Lambrettas and they've been great in all cases.

I have a set of Pinasco split tubeless, which are okay, but are 2mm wider at the stud than stock (or SIP), so you have to run nylock lug nuts and/or replace the hub studs with longer ones. Their main advantage is that you can do a tire replacement yourself with almost no special equipment (though if you have (access to) a bead breaker, I'd highly recommend taking advantage of it).

It's why I haven't put the same rims on the Stella. She's just too ugly for them, and the hassle of the tubeless tires just doesn't add up for me. I've got two sets of splitties and tubes and I'm ok with that.

And now with the added cost of ordering from abroad it would just be cost prohibitive.

I have stock split rims on my Stella, because it doesn't get ridden all that fast when I ride it. It's definitely the "scooter for when I need a scooter I don't mind messing up" scooter.

If you're doing a lot of higher speed riding, tubeless is nice to have both for the "probably won't blow out" factor but also the reduction in unsprung weight helps with the ride.

It's true, some finessing of shock connection with an offset is required.

Steering stops also need some fiddling.

Shoulda considered/mentioned.

However, payoff is wheel aligned with center of scoot.

Meet my bead breaker 😁

A-ha (another one), it just clicked! Now I get it, and what roland87 was trying to point out.

It was said that takes some time to digest the method, and it's true. It's primary benefit is to bring the wheel back into the centre plane, not to fit the wider rim. Although, one does imply the other. 👏🏻

Boy, do I feel dumb right now ... 😂

😂 Thanks for heads up.

I dig the seat upholstery on the blue Stella 🤩 hmmm... 🤔

Thanks. If you could see her up close it looks like the previous owner painted her with a brush and the cover on the seat is to keep whatever he painted THAT with from sticking to my jeans.

She was a hot mess when I found her. It's actually taken me seven years to decide to keep her around.

An actual update on the progress
(if it can be called that)

Wheels were sent off for a refurb. Nothing fancy, just hoped they'd come back half-decent and ready to roll (read: sit on a shelf for a month or two).

Well… they're back. Unfortunately, they look absolutely awful. I don't mean "not quite my taste", I mean genuinely bad. The kind of finish that makes you pause, tilt your head, and wonder if perhaps the refurb guy is pulling a prank. I'd hesitate to put them on a landfill, let alone bolt them onto a Vespa. Even if it's just an LML.

It's a shame, really, as I was looking forward to ticking that job off the list. Meh, back to the drawing board. Or rather the sandblaster.

That's refund worthy.

Got it already 😁👍🏻

Hey! dont diss the poor thing it may get an unreliability complex. LmL are great canvasses for working on!

Consider yourself told off on behalf of your stead

😉

I have large n' fat SIP 3x11" tubeless rims on both the front and rear of my pink PK200. And just to be clear, i did NOT choose to use those wheels from a performance standpoint, just for aesthetics of my personal taste on that particular build project. The scooter actually handles worse and has slower acceleration than a 2.1x10" rim. I knew all of this before i bought the parts, so it wasn't a surprise or anything. I still like the look of them even with the downsides.

If 11", 12", and 13" wheels were that much better, then all of the dedicated scooter track bikes would be running them.

Another option to fit a fat front rim is to swap in a lambretta front fork. It's way enough to center the rim on the fork.

Nice start
Or maybe the Universe trying to tell you something? Oh that absolutely stunning project and thread! It was one of the very first I read with excitement as soon as I discovered Modernvespa.

That scooter still run excellent! I had a friend port the stock 200 top end and it's pretty darn quick. I can easily hold it at a true 70mph going down the highway for miles and miles. It actually likes hanging out closer to 73 (and does it very easily), but i try to keep it below 68 so that i get better fuel economy. Top speed is a little bit over 76mph. And all of this is with the stock 24/24 carb with the oil injected hooked up.