Modern Vespa

I tried to follow the procedure in the manual the best I could:

loosened all 4 bolts on the R fork bracket
removed 2 bolts on the L fork

Still , as I am trying to turn the wheels convergent, they won't move. I can't adjust the convergence, what else do I need to remove?

Also: that shiny tool came with the bike. What is it for?

I can't help with the alignment, but the tool you say in the last image is the one to grab the variator so you can tighten it to the correct torque

https://manuals.wotmeworry.org.uk/Piaggio/Piaggio%20MP3/Useful%20Info/Steering%20Alignment%20%26%20Shimming%20Procedure.pdf

do you have the special alignment jig tool from piaggio?

that document you posted is more useful than the repair manual I already have.

Questions:

- where can I obtain the "parallelogram lock tool"? can that be made from flat steel profile?

- I already have equipment that measures the wheel convergence. In this case, do I still need the frame they are showing in the PDF, or I can use mine, provided the measurements coincide? In other words, all that frame is doing is to measure the convergence, or there is more to it?

Thanks!

First of all, why are you attempting this? Did the wheels suddenly go out of alignment?

^This. What evidence do you have that makes this a alignment issue?

Secondly, what type of alignment problem (camber, caster, or toe in) are you dealing with?

Thirdly, what is this "convergence" business all about? That is not a term used by vehicle repair technicians. The only time I have heard this term is from a old tube TV repair tech back in the 20th century

Accurate alignment can only be done with precision equipment, which is far beyond what the home welder can provide

I kinda lost track I was on 3 wheels, and I guided the scooter as if it was a regular bike.

The track being as wide as it is, I hit the concrete step in front of my house. My speed, the height of the step, together with the shock it caused, prompted me to check visually. The wheels were visibly divergent (divergent = the left wheel pointing left while the right wheel points right)

So I bought some rudimentary measurement tools of amazon and I was able to estimate the divergence (toe out) to be about 2.5 degrees. And my understanding is that the wheels should be slightly convergent (minimal toe in, as most rear wheel drive vehicles).

So I'm not sure how accurate my new setting will be, but as long as it's not worse that 2.5 degrees away from the intended angle, it will be an improvement.

Am I on the wrong path here?

In all likelihood you most likely have some bent/damaged steering and suspension components.

The mp3 is particularly prone to bent struts. Even something as trivial as a pothole can cause this.

How fast were you going? How high was this step? Did the bike hit the step with both front wheels head on or did you hit with one wheel first?

You may want to start searching for good donor parts, ideally the complete front end

step was pretty standard, such as 20cm. speed not that high, probably close to 15km/h.

Doesn't look bent and doesn't feel bent. Any asymmetrical change in geometry like to result in vehicle pulling to one side - which doesn't happen.

Besides this, I don't demand perfection. The way it is right now it handles pretty good, all I'm worrying about is premature tire wear. And I'm sure having less than 2.5 degrees of toe angle will reduce wear, even if still not within spec.

From what you describe I'd focus on caster being the problem first and foremost

The most likely bit to get bent is the steering arm that goes from the pivot under the central steering column out to the little arms on top of the two outer suspension legs. Everything else is much sturdier.

this one?

Am I understanding the document correctly?

If the alignment is off by up to certain value (40 notches as they say), then adjust it with the shims. If it's over that value, then do whatever says on pages 28 and 29, and then shim it.

Right?

What's the part number for the "steering orientation tool", where do I get it from and what exactly is it meant to do? Says there to install it on the parallelogram after unscrewing the lower right hand bracket. But why, what is the purpose? What is it supposed to change?

Yes. Even if slightly bent, it will cause misalignment.

I might have that part in my stash in the garage. I will check this afternoon.

looking at your pic of the arm is does look tweaked

Found it

a complete assy new is $664 for the arm, 2 u joints and the center joint/bearing.

I will sell this one for $250 with shipping.

You can see the difference!

thanks for searching. but:
mine looks like a W , and is symmetrical. same as in this diagram. Your part is like a U, with the central section completely straight. could it be a different part?

Is your MP3 an RL or LT model?

Different angle of the pic , it's the same

66Bavareze I sent you a private message with my cell number

You have old version joint new joint have other rubber.. see my movie. New version joint have many better toe in out regulation...

?is=Frctn-mxaXFhuen0

BS only rubber is different still have to shim it out get washers with thickness of 0.1 0.5 mm then you can give it 0.3mm tow in

older joints i put on a lathe and run 1mm off on one side i always use a digital caliper to measure the spacing of the wheels out

The new ones aren't the same. They're factory-selected and work with different washers of different thicknesses. This is designed so that the joint rotates easily in the fork mount after tightening.

"3.1. Premise
For the MP3 and Fuoco, new steering control U‐joints have been
introduced with new washers for adjustment.
19
Complete joint, Part No. 666545
1.5 mm adjustment washer, Part No.
666546"

"After fitting the new joint, position the vehicle in the tool again and repeat the
measurement of the toe‐in/toe‐out. With the new joints and the 1.5 mm
washers, larger toe‐in/toe‐out errors may be corrected.
The corrective actions necessary for excursions measured from the centre
position (with one 1.5 mm washer on the insider and one on the outside of the
suspension arm) are as follows:
1) From 0 to 11 notches No correction. Toe‐in/toe‐out at optimum values
2) From 11 to 32 notches Correct with 1 x 1.5 mm washer
3) Over 32 notches Correct with 2 x 1.5 mm washers
In situation 2, block the steering in the straight ahead position in order to
precisely identify the side on which corrective action is necessary.
With the new joints and the 1.5 mm washers, toe‐in/toe‐out errors smaller
than 2.2 mm in total cannot be corrected."

"For finer adjustment to approach theoretical values, six 0.5 mm washers may be
used together with the new joints to achieve the same thickness as two 1.5 mm
washers.
After checking that the new joint can turn freely with the set of six 0.5 mm
washers, proceed as follows for the excursions indicated below, measured from
the nominal position with three washers on the suspension arm side, three on the
joint side and the same number of notches on both wheels:
1) From 0 to 3.5 notches No correction. Toe‐in/toe‐out at optimum values
2) From 3.5 to 10.5 notches Correct with 1 x 0.5 mm washer
3) From 10.5 to 17.5 notches Correct with 2 x 0.5 mm washers
4) From 17.5 to 24.5 notches Correct with 3 x 0.5 mm washers
5) From 24.5 to 31.5 notches Correct with 4 x 0.5 mm washers
6) From 31.5 to 38.5 notches Correct with 5 x 0.5 mm washers
7) Over 38.5 notches Correct with 6 x 0.5 mm washers"

"After defining the number of washers to be removed or added, preferably block
the steering the in straight ahead position to identify individual changes more
clearly and determine the necessary corrections.
With toe‐in on one wheel and toe‐out on the other, correct with the
predetermined number of washers plus the same amount again to realign the
steering.
The amount of correction applied must be distributed correctly between the
two sides to ensure that the steering geometry is correct.
This solution allows corrections in toe‐in/toe‐out up to 0.7 mm in total"

For all of them I don't buy old joints with a single rubber, only those with accordions, i.e. the new version .

the old ones are no longer made but why do you want to change them they are expensive
268,01 € and with some grease and smaller washers you can get the same result lots cheaper

here are a new type and old type which is which

And washers i use

Different lenght... for washer.

I don't know a single person since 2008 that has an alignment tool jig from piaggio.

So all your cut and pasting of info to make it look like you "know" I just sweep under the rug.

I makking toll for all geometry... how rear wheel coresponding with front right and left wheel...
I make from this....ideo on yt...


Iff I say about only toe in toe out you dont need that tool only you must check with line metter distance from front brake disc and front disck brake in back and must be this same. Etc 372mm and 372mm iff 371 and 373mm you must replace washer from outside to inside.... Iff this length the same you have right toe in toe out.... simple as that.

For new version joint washer for booth side ist 1.5mm thicker. All 3mm. For adjusting better to have for each side 3x0.5 = 1.5mm and 3x0.5=1.5mm All always!! Must give you total thicker 3mm. Soryy for bad alenglish i write from bed from cell phone without translate. Greetings from Poland;)

1.5mm? it needs 0.3mm tow in thats the sweetspot see my posts from 2010 or 11 way back

And in your list if you put on 7x 1.5 mm then you need something else!!!

Like new front legs!!! then they are bend
you need them also with 4x 1.5mm

Also that Piaggio changes parts isn't that they are better, but the other manufacturer can make it cheaper

And how many mp3's did you align???
its not a normal maintenance job i only do it when i did one of the 2 jobs that need it

In the new version of the joints (they fit both old and new MP3s), the total width of the washers must always be 3mm. If you use thicker washers, the joint won't have the required play to rotate in the fork after tightening the nut. And it must, otherwise it will be a disaster. It will be difficult to move and the joints will wear out very quickly.

If you want to use more washers for an even greater adjustment range, you need to use a lathe to reduce the width, for example, by 0.5mm. Then you can use a total width of 3.5mm of the adjustment shims instead of 3.0mm.

However, I wouldn't go beyond the adjustment range of the new joints... because if you still can't get the wheels parallel, it means: you have play in the suspension, hence the poor results, or you simply have a warped suspension .

The wheels should be parallel to each other. I talk about this in my video. You can go to regular YouTube and turn on the subtitles and enable the translation into, for example, English.

You can no longer correct the toe-in... because toe-in is always closely related to the wheel's camber. Furthermore, if something is bent, even if you set the wheels parallel to the straight-ahead position, when you turn right or left, they will no longer be parallel, and the wheels will wobble.

Mine was a tight fit with the new joints and ended up having to replace the entire left fork. After replacement, I have the factory settings: the same spacer width on the outside and inside of the joint, and the alignment is correct

Replacement of the Lag curve with bearings by Adas

On YT turn on subtitles and change to English;)

i have a workshop and and repairing mp3 from about 2010 i've got customers with more then 100.000 miles on it still using the same joint from factory i've created the FP3 500 and the Fuoco 1000cc got returning customers from germany belgium luxebourg and the netherlands

They don't fail

And you still can give tow in using smaller washers
0.1 mm

the only to times you need to adress the joint is after a crash and when you take the front-end apart for the bearing

i think more and more that your a AI bot giving the wrong suggestions and repeating your self ai bot behavior

Why suggest to pay 268 euro for a joint that can be fixed for 10 euros

The older mp3's came with 2 1mm washers the newer come with 1.5mm 2 on each side the tolerance from piaggio are big now they are between 1.5 and -1.5 if you set it that way your front tyres will last only 15 to 20.000kms i do 40 to 50.000km with my fronts with a 0.3 tow in

Old joint with late you make to do like a new version and ist all. Iff joint have play inside you have to buy new one. And now on market only new version avalible. Old avalible on some magazine. Iff you have use late to make bigger adjusting when you have a new version something wrong with bearing or you have bent suspension..

Maybe next month i finish makking tool for all geometry. Rear wheel to front wheel and maybe you have to use different adjustingt right joint and left joint;). Bosch laser;). I make movie on YT makking this helpfull tool for all US mechanic;)