Modern Vespa

I'm sharing some thoughts here.

I see people asking about how to get more power out of their Vespa, better MPG, or other enhancements. I don't have any particular experience with scooters, but decent experience in automotive engineering. 

The Vespa, particularly the 2023 plus GTS is highly developed. It delivers a very good mix of fuel economy, high power for city and rural use, and a balance of other performance factors. All of these things require a balance of engineering design across the chassis, components and engine.

So, any improvements to power (or MPG) will require a trade off. 

1. Power. There are good videos, particularly out of Germany showing how to get more power or higher top speed out of a GTS. They invariably trade low speed delivery to get a higher top speed, or greater fuel consumption to deliver more power across the range. It's simply physics and engineering.

2. MPG. The only way to improve fuel economy is to reduce power - until we start installing variable valve timing, a turbo and battery hybrid functions into the GTS motor, there's nothing more to be had. And the cost of those is radically increased complexity. This is how our modern hybrid SUV gets better mileage than a little GTS, with all of those things built into a larger package. Yes, there are tweaks, for example compression could be slightly increased to take 100 octane.

Let me digress also, Piaggio recommends 95, by putting in 100 octane in the current engine you do not get more power, in fact you might get less because often ethanol is used to achieve that. Ethanol holds less energy per volume, and the motor is not optimised for the higher compressions that require 100 octane. The only scenario where 100 octane is going to help is if you're riding very hot for long periods (eg two up in Sahara) and need to combat pre-ignition.

And that's it. Want more speed? You'll lose low speed response. Want more power? You'll use more fuel. Want better MPG? Then be prepared to lose power and slow down. Alternatively, you have to radically increase complexity.

The reason I thought to say this is that a good number of the sellers out there are not honestly representing their products. There are plenty of 'more power, higher speed' solutions being sold with the claim of 'no loss' when physically, mechanically that's impossible for the product they're selling. Or they neglect to tell anyone that fuel consumption will go up - which for me is a big issue, already the range on the GTS is woeful for what I like to do. Anyway, noise is not power!

And of course, this is a pretty niche issue. I see occasionally someone being ripped because they had the audacity to think about reengineering their Vespa for power. And the aftermarket community for Vespa is relatively small, mainly focused on cosmetics, because the Vespa is already pretty well optimised for its market.

That all said, I'd love for these innovations to be picked up. I hear that paggio patented a VVT option suitable for scooters. And they already know how to implement a battery hybrid - which sadly they've developed the 310 away from. But with possibly selling only around 20,000 units per year, that sort of development is probably too costly to justify on the GTS. And could it even be done while maintaining reasonable reliability and repairability?

Keen to hear others' thoughts!

I just left mine stock, and added a second, slightly larger, machine for those times when the GTS just wasn't enough...which wasn't that often actually, but...well, you know.

Your lack of knowledge about scooter tuning is evident.

The Piaggio engine is not a particularly "highly developed" motor. Compared to pretty much every other modern 300cc scooter engine, this technical marvel is dated, underpowered and not very reliable. It's basically a two wheeled Fiat.

I'm not sure why you are under the impression that achieving more top speed is a trade off for low speed response. You can achieve both a quicker takeoff and higher top speed, while keeping the reliability about where it is on a stock engine.

It would be interesting to hear how much less energy you think a gallon of E10 has compared to a gallon of E0.

Haha two wildly different machines. I can't imagine the pain someone would go through trying to build some Frankenstein that combined both.

I'm with Backland on this one.

If I want to go faster I just buy something faster and save a whole bunch of time.

did you just ask chatgpt or some other ai to provide you an essay on ways to increase power on a scooter without actually including any technical information on the actual how-to?

To address that very thing, I simply bought two 1200's to fill the embarrassing void between the two extremes, but unfortunately, doing so required trading in the poor Vespa, which tragically upset the original equation.

Riding my 2006 GTS250 into town today to purchase a rattle can of stove paintm I did remark to myself how SMOOTH the Vespa engine was. I grew up on 100-250cc atreet and dirt bikes, and there were no 250 singles at that time that ran as vibration free as this scooter does.

If I need more Umph! I just throw the leg over the VFR, It's got Four times more of everything.

And still gets 40 mpg no matter how hard I flog it.

A post that generates traffic is not a bad thing in and of it's own self.

I love the idea of the tele-lever front end, but GAWD, that's an ugly bike....

ps

I was born in Deadwood!

In a battle of wits, I am of the least. I try harder in the wit ..

ai at it's best////

Energy density: Pure ethanol contains about 33% less energy per gallon than pure gasoline. Because E10 fuel contains 10% ethanol, it has about 3% to 4% less energy than pure gasoline (E0).

No. As I said, I don't have any particular experience with scooters, but decent experience in automotive engineering.

Sounds like we don't agree on what 'highly developed' means. You're looking at an engine that is reasonably soft in it's tuning and then comparing it to motors that are manufactured in their hundreds of thousands per year - compared to the GTS 300 at around 20,000. Of course the other brands can afford a different level of refinement.

Another user helpfully responded with the ethanol figures.

And, look, I'm sorry you're having a hard day. Maybe talk about the topic instead of the person. Afterall, I already said "I don't have any particular experience with scooters, but decent experience in automotive engineering". So your observation that my "lack of knowledge about scooter tuning is evident" isn't a deep cut.

On my manual it says e10 or e5.
I use 5 (98), as a) it has less plastic and rubbers
deorienting ethanol, and b) it stays better thru the winter-sleep.

I do not care the power, whats not the best is brakes, not the acceleration.

Elaborating on the aspects/ details of the scooter tells me you want me to believe your knowledge of the scooter and how it could be improved. Like others here have stated, just buy something bigger/with more power. However, just riding clears the mind of such speculation of trying to fix something that doesn't need to be, IMHO.

I don't recall ever riding the GTS300 that I owned for almost three years without marveling at it's refined characteristics and performance from such a small (relatively) single-cylinder motor.

It's unlikely that I will ever own another, but it was definitely a very satisfying small machine that I liked to say 'punched well above it's class'.

Perhaps I should point out that my general attitude towards modifying MY machines for increased performance is based on the realization and acceptance of my innate inability at doing such things properly without totally screwing things up, so at least in my case, it's just better to leave things alone and ride my bikes 'as they are'..but would probably have turbos on everything that I own (including the Craftsman riding mower) if I was capable of doing such things competently.

I've always suspected that the Engineers who design these machines know exactly how much power, torque and rpms the chassis can safely take and then we come along and think that we know better because we aren't Engineers.

Hmmm....could be the reason the Royal Enfield 650 is only 47 hp, so as not to overwhelm it's 'built to a price' rolling stock?

I've owned four of them, so I can speculate on such things with a certain degree of credibility.

Give an RE 650 Interceptor double it's current hp, and what you'd likely have would be a modern(?) version of the old Kawasaki H2, otherwise known as the infamous 'Widowmaker'.

I'm happy with the power output of my GTS but as someone who rides motorbikes too it's the cornering and stopping that for me are lacking on the big Vespa.

perhaps not.

Performance creep is very real across all sorts of vehicle platforms. Even tractors!

Take the Vespa
GTS150, then a 200, 250, 300, 310.
Yet they are "pretty much" the same rolling chassis.

I didn't find my GTS300 insufficient in either cornering or braking, though I will admit to not being a particular aggressive rider, and one who doesn't live in a relatively congested urban environment and it's associated traffic either.

That's not to say that I didn't ride it fast enough to possible have to pay some hefty speeding fines if I was having a 'bad day', so to speak.

My scooter's cornering potential was limited by the shitty tires I had on my GTS, along with my rather well-developed sense of survival.

Silly post. The modern Vespa engine may be highly tuned as standard, but it is also tuned for price, emissions, noise, reliability. Many on this forum are prepared to compromise on these for more performance, and one can get more high and low end performance with alternative variators, ECU tuning, exhausts, etc. Just lighter rollers (or sliders) for a start.

Of course you can get more hp/ speed/noise. Like what 1-2 hp at WOT, 5-7 mph more, +50 DB for what…. $1k or more ? Wow. Most vechicles can be modded to get more what ever, usually having to give up something in another area. Also you don't high milage ( usually) out of a highly tuned engine + added maintenance. Everything has its trade offs.but by all means it's your money. I've owned a lot of MCs and have chased that trail when I was younger to discover I then had to put up with the new traits ( noiser, narrower power band, more to work on) the bike got. It also cost a lot over the yrs to do these things and not worth it ( usually) IMHO.

Did not know 150, but GTS 125 I knew.

I wonder if the scooter racing crowd could offer options on more aggressive brake pads?

EBC offers an alternative to OEM
https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChsSEwi2zYzNo9KPAxWgYkcBHaj6HYoYACICCAEQBxoCcXU&co=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIts2MzaPSjwMVoGJHAR2o-h2KEAQYASABEgLFh_D_BwE&cce=2&sig=AOD64_0yFUApTuDwTLGtUKp3if5WsnEicg&ctype=5&q=&ved=2ahUKEwjYmYbNo9KPAxXkKVkFHXFRDN0Q9aACKAB6BAgMEBI&adurl=

I can not say if they are better. It is hard to get good braking performance from cold pads, but that is the reality for street riding.

The pursuit of added performance has nothing to do with practicality. And everything to do with performance! I'm suprised no one has introduced NOx as a "free lunch" blast.
The tank would fit under seat easily!

Trying to squeeze that extra half-horsepower out of these engines is a challenge and is FUN!

My previous two GTS300s had Malossi cylinders and heads. Akra exhausts, Brembo calipers, Bitubo shocks etc. and had more performance and stopping power than my new 2023 HPE. They were totally reliable. Also cheaper to maintain as I could do it all myself. Can't work on the new model - too many extra nuts and bolts to undo, and too much electronics involved (besides I am getting older ).

Compare the huge difference between the BV350 to the GT300 and it's engine is only 50cc's bigger so I'm going to suggest that the GT chassis isn't capable of dealing with much more power in its current form.

The BV is a massive improvement in performance and handling so if you want to go faster then buy one of those but they aren't sexy are they ?

I once rode an ET4 with a 180cc kit on it but it was surreal and unwieldy as it wasn't built to deal with that kind of delivery.

A bit mad:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DM2WmN7s2s2/?igsh=OHkwYmdwdDJ2bXJ3

Or less mad:
https://www.instagram.com/p/DH8p7lXIPns/?igsh=N2oweGQwY3NxOHNh

At over 400# ready to ride, the BV350 should be displaced by a proper motorcycle.

Someone suggested to me that the BMW scooter was a better choice than a GTS

The dang thing weighs more than my sport bike ! I ask WHY would I want a scooter that is bulkier than a useful motorcycle, with only a fraction of the "Whizz/bang"?

I did think these differencies on bigger stuff, and yes, you lose fast that idea of " I just jump to groceries with scoot as no eggs to pancakes anymore!"

Nobody even notices are you with a scoot or mc.

A BV350 shouldn't be replaced with anything apart from a BV400 because it has its own place in the Piaggio line up and in the market for that matter.

Some people just don't want to ride a motorcycle.

I had a BV and it was brilliant. Better in many ways but not prettier than a GTS.

It all depends which BMW scooter you are talking about. If it's the C650/GT then it's way better than a GTS but if it's the C400 then I'd argue that it's just the way that the Germans go about designing scooters - even if it is built in China. They'll often overengineer the product to make it last. Hence the extra weight.

The Italians will do the minimum. Aesthetics are more important.

Just for laughs here are the weights of various Maxi Scooters vs the GTS.

Vespa GTS 300 HPE, 326 lbs

Kymco Downtown 300, 395 lbs

Suzuki Burgman 400, 438 lbs

BMW C400, 456 lbs

Yamaha X Max, 400 lbs ( wet )

Piaggio BV 400, 390 lbs

Honda Forza 300, 400 lbs

BMW C650 Sport, 549 lbs

Suzuki Burgman 650, 525 lbs

I agree with Bill on this...my Leader 150 Piaggio Fly had a Malossi 187 kit, Polini Upgear, and GPR exhaust and it was fast, raucous, and fun. But I could easily overpower the brakes, suspension, and chassis.

How much faster do you really want to be traveling on a short wheelbase scoot with 12" wheels? 80mph on good pavement seems more than adequate.

Although I am contemplating a modest engine mod on my 2007 GTS250

Sometimes logic is overruled by our desires.

Curiously, The wheel base on the GTS is much the same as that of the VFR800. (Just laying a tape on the floor next to the tire contact points. call it 54 inches, I'm sure the "data sheets for each would show a difference.
That was a suprise to me.

I think that there's a level of unwarranted kudos in tuning something.

It makes you slightly more interesting than the guy that left it alone.

Ha.

Worked for Fiat waaaay back in the day when it was Spiders and X19s. Good thing at least the parts were cheap.

The Vespa GTS300 wheelbase is 53.998532568....published as such almost certainly in an attempt to match the storied precision of the German machines.

They didn't do that. They rebadged a Chinese scooter. One of our suppliers from Spain brought this to my attention. She thought it was funny that BMW didn't even try to hide it.
The cope on scooter forums when you bring this up is impressive. People will go to amazing lengths to explain the difference between the BMW and the Voge.
I think the Freedom Scooter was a rebadged Voge too, but I'm not sure.

So it's a rebadged Voge which is owned by Loncin but badged as a BMW ?

Well I've learnt something today. I also made the mistake of thinking that BMW would have a hand in its design. Arse.

Which model did Voge morph into a C400 ?

Found it. I think that it's the SR4 Max unless you know more.

sorta like "mini" being the way BMW managed to sell the horrid 1-series to countless morons over the years.


anyone ever put nitrous on their vespa? seems a fun way to live hilariously, if only for a short time.