Modern Vespa

Hello,

My favorite scooter parts vendor has been out of stock Piaggio P200 piston and cylinders for months. I need it for my '81 P200E.
I bought this P200E new at Vespa of San Francisco and have put relatively low miles on it each year, but now it's time to refresh everything.
Over the decades, I've gone through the usual tires, bulbs, exhaust, shocks, rings, cables and whatnot but am now finally going through and rebuilding the engine.
A couple years back I changed the stock California 20/20 carb to the 24.I'm happy with the performance so far.
I want to replace the piston and cylinder but it seems the original quality Italian ones are not available, at least through my usual vendor.
I'm asking what I should do. Is there a suitable quality stock piston/cylinder kit out there and if so please direct me. Or is there Malosi or Polini kit I should be looking at for more performance or durabilty or longevity?
I've been happy with the stock P200E setup for for a long time so this update is not about increasing performance. If it went faster that would be cool but the thing I've loved about this scooter is that it starts most every day for the last 40 years, so that's my angle. I'm mostly interested in reliability. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

Just have it rebore and it should serve you well

Both sip and sck used to sell what they called 12hp cylinder kits, which were pretty much standard iron cylinder kits akin to the Piaggio originals, but I didn't see them posted when I just checked.

A rebore with a suitable oversized piston would be another solution, if the cylinder hasn't already been rebored to death.

A search on ebay Italy will yield a bunch of iron cylinder kits under 200€ that are based on the original design.

Another solution to consider, albeit at a higher cost, would be to invest in a malossi sport cylinder and bolt it on, with the necessary jetting upgrade. Aluminim cylinders run cooler, get to temperature faster, are way harder to seize, and even if they do seize, they tend to sustain minimal damage at the cost of the piston, which can then be replaced. They give their full potential when the transfers are matched in the casings, but substantial power will be added even as a simple bolt-on.

Thanks Gravelrash for the quick reply!
Thanks Frank N. Stein.

I guess the deal for me was that I was looking for a quick and easy solution. I'm not a mechanic, but I'm a good parts changer so that's why I was focused new parts rather than rehoning. Now that you bring it up that makes perfect sense if the original parts are good.
This engine has 25k miles on it.
The piston will need replacing as it has a "dent' in the dome. I noticed that a decade ago when I replaced the rings. It seemed to not care and has ran since anyway. I did a quick stone hone on the cylinder when I had it apart but it's never had anything else done. Maybe it can be rebored and the next oversize piston fitted.
Pardon my inexperience and thanks in advance for any explanation.
I understand the concept but how does that work? Do I find someone who can do the reboring and bring the new oversize piston which they work to, or do they do the machining and then tell me which piston size to buy? I'd imagine they'd want something on hand to measure.
See? about now is usually the time I say to myself EFF it, and look for a new set to buy. LOL
Is there anyone you can recommend in the Pacific Northwest who does good machine work on vespa cylinders? I guess location really doesn't matter, I could ship the cylinder wherever.

That Malosi sport cylinder sounds enticing. Would I need to also upgrade exhaust?

For a rebore, most any motorcycle engineer or repair shop can do this for you.

What i tend to do is, take the cylinder along to my repair shop of choice and just ask tjem to rebore it and supply the piston.

That way they do what's necessary and I collect the parts when done.

Im UK based so can't comment on a supplier near you, but im sure someone else will reply to this with a recommendation or two for you.

Thanks!

I think the Malossi Sport tested on a case that was not port matched dyno'd at about 16hp. Stock cylinder is supposed to be 12. The Sport will also give you more torque as well as hp, it's a nice cylinder.

Upgrading the exhaust of course would help, even on the stock cylinder. The Polini box is great.

The slumped piston sounds like a timing issue to me.

Wow impressive!
Thanks for the info Gince

You bring the new piston, always. Be aware that the necessary tolerance on a stock cylinder and piston will seem massive to any shop used to working on "modern" cylinders, so they might balk at first. I thought I remembered 10-11/100, but I just looked up what a buddy who's been racing P2s for decades had to say about that, and he says 12-15/100. Compare that to more modern iron cylinder kits or aluminum kits, and that's double or triple the tolerance. In any case, double check before you have your cylinder bored if you go that route. You don't need to if you want to just swap cylinders and be done, but a Polini box will make a noticeable difference. The added upgrades make obvious incremental differences, especially at this stage.

Not a big issue, but both aluminum cylinders and semi expansion exhausts like the Polini will be much noisier than a stock iron cylinder and a sooty old pipe. But the extra horses will be worth the HOA complaints and eventual lawsuits

Thanks for the reply Frank,

I'm ordering for now a stock 1st oversize piston and will get my original cylinder to machined to fit. I'll use my cleaned up stock exhaust with new hardware.

I have in my SIP cart the Malossi sport kit and a SIP Road 2 exhaust and will get those on the way for a future upgrade.
They can sit on a shelf indefinitely or easily be swapped out anytime.

That's the plan for today.

That exhaust is 17 years old. Go with a Polini box at least.

Oh? Thanks for the feedback.
I'll check it out.

That's not a good investment. A few years from now there will be the next best kit and exhaust.
"I'd" do one or the other (rebore/kit).

The Malossi Kit bolted on is quite impressive with a box exhaust vs stock.
Like stock gearing was meant for it.

As Frank N mentioned, it'll be much louder.
It's a really nice sound, though

Since you proclaimed that you're not a mechanic, and you want something reliable, just stick with what you got. A stock P200 top end is super duper reliable. Buy an oversized piston, then get the cylinder bored to match. First, I would highly recommend to remove the cylinder head and measure the id of the bore so that you can confirm that you only will need a 1st oversized piston.

Everyone has their favorite type of box exhaust. I still like the 30+ year old design of the Sito.

+10
Plus the SIP exhausts tend to turn into maracas once the inner plate weld comes loose... That could go both ways. When I bought my Pinasco Supersport 225 kit (a misnomer btw), I did so based on the reputation of the famed 213 kits of the '80s. Had the old version been available, that's the one I would have bought. Instead of a reliable bolt-on kit, it turned out to be nothing but trouble.
Often, "new and improved" involves churning out "new stuff" for the sake of novelty, and letting customers do the testing and finding faults on their own dime. Could be that Malossi in the future decides to try out some new chinese pistons or nicasil plating, or some new transfer architecture that leads cylinders to crack over time, and those with the "old" quality kits are suddenly glad to have the desirable kit still on their shelf. Yes, the Malossi (aluminum kits in general) plus the polini exhaust yields a louder growl that sounds pretty impressive. Less discreet, but not obnoxious.

This is helpful.
I'm pretty set on the Malossi sport kit. I'm not so solid on the exhaust. It seems there is lots of options each with their own twist.
I was looking at the Malossi sport kit and pair it with the Malossi Powerclassic exhaust, because well, its the same brand, and I had watched a youtube build with that combo. But then I noticed a review that said it was too loud. Too loud for Italy, LOL.
It seems the SIP Road 2 had similar performance but at a lower volume and I remembered reading about it in the past.
Honestly that's as much thought as I put into my exhaust decision. So you can see I'm flexible and grateful for direction with that. Thanks for any suggestions for the exhaust.

I don't mind a moderate increase in sound but big noise is a consideration.

Piston and Cylinder: The Malossi sport seems very well designed and easy to install. A real tuner mechanic could pull more out of it of course but an amateur could install it without the tweaks and still have a happy scooter. I like that. I'd rather have something solid and proven on the shelf as a spare or a future whim, even slightly out of date, rather than not being able to find it later. I can always sell it and buy the next best thing if that situtation presents itself.

Exhaust.

So, the SIP is not recommended. noted.

Here are a few others I'm looking at:

Sito, wow those seem to be a bargain!

Polini Racing exhaust 200

Pinasco touring classic no reviews that I can see.

Thoughts? anything else I should look at? Thanks-

Polini since you're on 10" wheels. Sounds the best and has torque for days. But I've only used the Polini and the SIP on mine. SIP clears the center stand for 8" wheels but the Polini is better in every other aspect.

Thanks FridayMatinee

You're overthinking this. Malossi sport, Polini box (for 200 of course), and perhaps a banded cosa clutch to withstand the extra poneys. When you're overhauling the engine make sure the cruciform is good, as are the primary drive, bearings and seals.

I wouldn't worry about noise; not only is no one reasonable going to start fessing because your 45 year-old antique moped doesn't sound like a Tesla, nobody is going to know how loud or quiet it's supposed to sound. Regarding the Sito option: it's probably as loud, cheaper, sure, but less robust and nowhere near as performance-enhancing as the Polini. It's basically a hollowed-out clone of the Piaggio.

You say you've had this scooter from new, since 1981? Care to share some pics? Pretty cool to have owned the same bike for so long, especially from the showroom.

Thanks Frank for the headcheck!

And yeah, thanks for the clutch suggestion. I was on the fence about rebuilding the stock one, but that Cosa clutch looks pretty cool. We'll see if I can $wing that part with these other expenses. It can be done later if not.

I've got an engine kit plus a bunch of new loose parts, cruciform, kick gears and whatnot-Everything I could glean from watching Robot, Smallbore, SIP, FreakMoped, etc.
I've been collecting tools for the job over time. I've got the Haynes manual plus a bunch of other books, and now I've you all of you!

Over all the years I've done only maintenance on this scoot, but I've worked on vintage Triump and BMW bikes plus lots of aircooled VW's. The procedures across the various platforms can be similar but each has its important subtleties. I'm trying to learn all I can about this one now.

The Vespa is pretty beat right now, but I'll post some pics! Good idea!

Here are a couple pics I found on my phone from earlier this year

The pic with the Lambrettas was a scooterclub meetup. I'm not a member but have many friends in that club. They were getting "refreshments" at a nearby tavern and I figured I'd join them. The white Lammy is owned by P-Town Patrick, in case anyone recognized it.

The white cowls are not original. They are probably the 4th or 5th set I've had on there. When I lived in San Diego in the 80's I parked on the street. They kept getting ripped off.

I recognize both of those lammies. If you have troubles dialing in the Malossi via this forum, i'm confident someone in the portland scooter community could help you out in person.

Yeah, Whodatschrome!
The scene is pretty rich and friendly for sure. Everyone has been cool.
I'm trying to save my big favors for a real blunder.

Maybe see you out there.

I've been wary of PX clutches ever since I blew up a 7-spring one, then the 6-spring on my spare engine shortly after, both times on stock engines. This happened in the city rather than far from home on a trip to the beach or the countryside, but nonetheless it was no fun pushing the P2 all the way back home across town. I turned to Cosa clutches thereafter, even upgrading to reinforced baskets for extra peace of mind.

If you can find your way around 4-stroke engines, you shouldn't be fazed by the relative simplicity of a vespa engine. You'll just need some specialized tools, and access to torque wrenches, while not absolutely indispensable, helps to keep the guesswork to a minimum.

Nice P; you can tell it's been around! Too bad about the cowls though. Funny how the burgundy and navy blue paint jobs tend to lose their sheen on these bikes. Good thing is, they're usually easy to bring back to life with some acetone or abrasive polish.

A closer match to the Polini box is the SIP Road 3. Either would be much much better than a Sito Plus, because a lot of R & D has been done on box exhausts since Sito basically copied the T5 stock exhaust in the what, 80's? 90's maybe?

Polini box is my strong preference.

Stay away from the Malossi box. Mine fell apart after two days, maybe 12 hours of riding?

I replaced my piston and cylinder on my 200 with a stock Piaggio replacement. I think it was the 12hp version, but really didn't notice much difference. At the time, I wanted to keep everything stock because I had been struggling for a long time to get a tuned engine to run properly.

After getting a taste of the improved performance on a mildly tuned engine, I find the stock 200 kind of pokey. I'm sticking with it for now, but at some point might fit a better kit. One suggestion was the VMC Ranger, but I like the Malossi Sport because it's been around for awhile, parts are easy to find in the US and it's good quality.

Very cool that you're the original owner.
You know what you have, unlike most all of us.

Keep watching those resto videos.
Love Smallbore's videos!:
"Oh well, it is what it is" is the attitude to have with these bikes, as something will stump you for sure along the way.

If your experience is like mine, the YouTube algorithm will send you some videos from Germany and Italy. Some really good ones out there.

Don't place an order until you've dug into it. This will not avoid multiple orders, more to make fewer. I guarantee you you'll find something + that should be replaced.

If you go kit, I highly recommend replacing the cables to SIP Performance, modern brakes (of which there are as many as box exhaust favorites but the SIP shoes are great IMO), maybe a Cosa clutch. When you first ride with the Cosa clutch it's so much easier to pull you'll think something's wrong. "Should" fit without dremel modification.

I have three Polini boxes on my 177's and an SIP R2 on my 210 (got it cheap). No complaints.
Box exhaust comparisons here, even the handmade Resi box:
https://scooterlab.uk/vespa-big-box-exhaust-shootout/

Thanks Ray8,
I appreciate the reply.
Videos. Oh yeah for sure. I usually have a Scooter rebuild/repair Youtube playing in my shop as I work, learning through osmossis even when not focusing! I love the non English ones, especially Motorblock. Those can be hours long and by the time they are over I swear I can speak Spanish. I've noticed they've been posting some videos overdubbed in English, which takes all the fun out of it. Oh well.

That Scooterlab exhaust shoot out is great. I've got the Polini pipe and Malossi cylinder kit on the way, seems others liked that exhaust too.
Thanks Ginch too.

Frank N Stein, I'll have some questions about that burgundy...thanks

The "refresh" keeps hovering between how to get the bike back on the road in time for the good weather and Well, we're here, might as well do it ALL.
I'm navigating a path somewhat in the middle of those two I suppose.

I think as cool and well spoken of the Cosa clutch is, at this point, I'm going to rebuild the stock one. For cables and harness (my kill switch wire has been toast for over a decade) I already purchased stock replacements. Same with brakes. I was ordering stock parts before any research, figured stock was stock and stock was good, but wow, what a whole world has opened up!
I'll probably order the Cosa for a future project. Maybe the new piston kit will "accelerate" my decision there we'll see. Thanks for the education.


One other factor is that I've also got a nice beater 1980 P200E that I bought as a parts bike that will get the better leftovers from my main scooter. So if for example that stock clutch gets replaced by a Cosa, that newer rebuild clutch will go into the "parts" scoot.
Win win!

I'll post some pics when I have the engine torn down. Cheers, All, Happy St Patrick's Day!

Dont forget to upjet your carb jets.
Otherwise you will seize that nice new cylinder.

Thanks Robbie 11. I was wondering about that. What size jet is a good starting point? And can you recommend which plug I should use?

I have no experience with the Malossi kits but someone in the forum can certainly give you advice for the jetting.
Try the search also as Im sure its been discussed many time here in the past....

Cool, thanks, will do!

Pretty sure I'm the only person on here with good things to say about the Pinasco 225 'Supersport'. Whilst I agree it's name is a little misleading, it has served me very well since late 2013, with replacement seals, piston rings and clutch plates from time to time. In fact, I pulled it out of the garage today for the first time since October and took it for a blast around the very hilly area where I now live. It behaved itself impeccably, with strong pull up the hills, as it has done every year since I first built it. Still the original piston, and the bore was immaculate the last time I serviced it. It's nothing more than an alu big bore with some interesting transfer ports, a better head than stock, and no case mods required, although I did open the inlet a tad. No complaints here, although I kind of wish it would die so that I can buy the VMC Ranger.