Modern Vespa

Back in May I decided to take this Vespa and try and get it running. I took it to someone in my area who does work on Vintage models since I have no mechanical skills. It was sitting in my shed for 15 Years and I had no I idea when the last time it was on the road before that. The shop I took it to has a good reputation plus he was pretty excited when he saw it. I told him I would just like to get it running and ride it this summer. I thought I would just clean it up the best I could and leave it as is buying just odds and ends that it may need ( rubber bits and pieces, mirrors etc.). The shop put new tires, took out and cleaned the gas tank, put an inline filter and checked ot the carb. Well to my surprise he did get it running. Thats great I thought until I had to register it. I had no paperwork on it. Nothing, Nada! Didn't realize it would be this hard to get something on the road. After about 2 weeks and some luck with connections I did get it registered and on the road only to have it stall out. Couldn't get it running! Well, I took the scooter back to the shop for more ajustment. I understood this may happen anyway since this scooter has not been running 15+ years. Yesterday I picked it up. They blew out the carb and changed the float needle and ajustments with the jets. It started at the shop. Got it home went for a ride and it stalled again. Not being able to start it again I walked it home. OK I"ve been beat up enough and sank enough money it to the scooter to want to sell it. Just want a Vespa to ride and be happy! Since the Man that owns the shop is very interested in adding it to his collection of Vespas can someone tell me what a fair price would be to sell it to him. I'll add some pics. Any help would be great. Sorry about the long SOB story. Just had to get it off my chest. Hopefully I'll be riding a Vespa 150 or 200 soon. Don from RI

You're giving up that easily? Come on .... It probably has a bad HT coil / or condensor. The original ones tend to heat up and fail after the bike is warmed up. A condensor is 5 bucks and an HT coil is 30-40.

That's a seriously classic bike you have there, and many people would consider themselves very lucky to have it. I beg you to have a little more patience with the thing. I understand how frustrating it is at first, particularly when you have no experience or troubleshooting skills for the thing ... but you gotta start somewhere.

I'll help you work through it, and you can ask all the questions you want, but i wouldn't sell that bike.

An original condition Rally 180 ...orginal paint, and that good a body shape? Probably $3000 at this point ...maybe $3500. If that bike were near me, i would have tripped over myself trying to buy it.

I really implore you to keep the thing, though. It's only going to get rarer and more valuable, and you've not even had a chance to enjoy it yet...

Yea don't give up so easily man. Take it to another shop if you can't do the work yourself.
Whatever you do don't sell it to the guy at the shop who's been working on it. He knows it's valuable and he knows you think it's a piece of crap. That's a bad combination.
At least put it on craigslist or ebay...

Thanks for the encouragment guys. You know, right after writing the post I went out to start it. Some kind of addiction I think. After 20 kicks it started and took it for a ride only to have it stall at about 2 miles. Of course not roaming too far from home! Couldn't get it going again. Eric, the HT coil looks simple to replace, but the condensor looks like a little more work.. Would these parts be available at Scooterworks or Scooteroriginali. Also after it stalls and I try and start it, if I choke it for a couple of kicks I'll see gas coming out under the carb. side after kicking with the choke closed. As far as the shop where I take it, the owner seems like an honest person. Although he does comment on how he would love to have it! I just hate to see the scooter sitting in my shed another year without someone enjoying it. I collect coins and all they do is sit in the closet. Should sell them too!! Maybe I'll give it a second thought. Thanks again, Don

Scooters Originali is fine ...they will have the stuff. You can replace the HT coil with a new PX125 style ducati one. The condensor - you'll need to figure out if it is a 1 wire ...2 wire ..etc. To replace it you will need to pull the flywheel off and solder a wire to a contact point. That's it.

The flywheel comes off easily as it's self-extracting ...there's a circlip that holds the nut to the flywheel. Back the nut off the crankshaft and it will pull the flywheel along with it.

I want to address all the gas coming out of the carb business, but i think you have a weak spark ... and i think we should start there ( personally ). The fact the bike rides fine for a couple miles then dies doesn't lead me to think it's a carb problem.

Stick with it chilly
or sell it to me LOL Just kidding

I just want to say that it is awesome to have people like rovereric on this site , he is super helpful and unselfish , a good thing for those of us with a little passion and a small amount of mech fortitude. when you tear it apart on MV you are never alone!!!

You mentioned the fuel system being cleaned. Was the fuel line replaced? I'm almost thinking it could be a fuel starvation issue caused by a too long fuel line or some other restriction.

mz

Thanks Eric and the rest of you guys for the help. I want you to know trhat my intentions were to just sell and maybe pick up a used modern Vespa at some point. But now I figure whats the rush with all the people buying new maybe there will be a lot of used Vespas for sale in the fall. I'll give the Rally another shot. Already put in around $800 so whats another couple hundred. The fuel line is new with a new small filter between, about 10 inches from the tank. Not sure how long it is or supose to be but the first time it stalled I swear there was no gas getting to the carb. When I pulled the line off the carb. gas was flowing. Ill look into the coil and condenser and see if that helps. If I have a problem putting them in I'll let you guys know. When it does start it's just a beatiful sound and just have to take it for that short ride close to home. Don

So..the fuel line on a largeframe has to be EXACTLY 24".

Also, i would recommend NOT having a fuel filter on there, as it might disrupt the flow. If the inside of the tank is rusty, find a mediablaster who will glass bead it for you ( but just the inside ). I've got a local guy who does it for me and either does it for free or charges me 20$ depending on how he's feeling.

Remember to remove the fuel tap first, though.

Definately keep that scoot and get it going, youre almost there!

I'm far from Nostradamus, but I dont see gas prices going down any time soon, which I think is the main driving force behind the recent scoot boom.

That said, that Rally is sweet as hell. Don't get rid of it. Sweet Jeebus don't get rid of it.

*slam*

sorry, that was my jaw hitting the desk as the sight of such pristine paint! She's beautiful. Just a thought, but have you checked the condensors on it? If those are bad, replacing them should stop the stalling out. Dont give up just yet!

Frankly, i regret selling my '77 Rally 200, and she looked like yours does. But the scoot does have a good home now. I have an agreement with the current owner that I get first buying back rights if he ever wants to sell. And I'd pay up for $5k for that bike back in my hands...maybe more depending on my nostalgic feelings at the time.

Thinking maybe I should move this discussion over to Project Reports. Don't want to step out of line being so new to this forum. Did start off as a question but now it will be a small project. By the way Mogeewogee, havn't been called Chilly since leaving the FD 8 years ago. Thought I was talking to one of the brothers. Had to look twice! Signed Chilly

That's a gorgeous bike and a model many folks dream of owning one day. Why is it so highly coveted? It's got a pretty reliable engine with good power like the later PX models but it still retains the vintage aesthetics of curvier, more voluptuous Vespas of the past. It's kind of a bridge between the more reliable bikes that came after it and the sexy as hell (but less reliable bikes) that came before it.

I'm sure if you get fed up with it there will be no shortage of people who will volunteer to find it a nice new home.

I think they only made about 27000 of them back in the day. Not sure if that was for only the US market or European too with tailights different for each. Just wish I didn't keep it sitting in a shed for 18 years. Anyway, yesterday I took the tank out to replace the gas line. The one that was put in was around 26inches long including that inline filter. The place I took it to did tumble the tank and said it looked good to him but added a filter as a precaution. Put in a fuel line 24 inches. Next took out the spark plug. Since it was new I just cleaned it up. Did look a little black before cleaning. Put everything back together except I left the air cleaner off too see if gas was getting to the carb. or leaking. Didn't pull the choke out at first but after 10 or more kicks did use it for a few and pushed it back in. Could smell gas so I looked in the carb and it looked like fuel was pouring in so I shut the fuel line. Took the plug out again and gave some kicks, not to the scooter itself of course. Put the plug back in opened the fuel line and eventually did get it running. Let it run for a while while putting the carb. back together. Wanted to see how long it would run. After 30 min. decided to take it by a friends house close by since he is familiar with motorcycles. When I got their it sounded as if it were going to stall. His opinion was it was getting to much fuel. So I shut the fuel line while it was running and it seemed like it would smooth out, opening it after around 30 seconds. Doing that I road the scooter home and shut the fuel line to get the gas out of it. The shop did put in a new float needle cause fuel was overflowing but I wonder if that part needs more attention? Will order a new HT Coil but saw that scooterworks had the same one and they have the condensor. Thanks Chilly

I think your main jet is too big.

Can you follow the instructions on this website to access the carb, remove your jets, and write down the number on all of them?

Follow these instructions to about step #12, write down the numbers on all the brass jets, ( there should be 5 total ... choke/starter, idle/slow running, main, mixer, air corrector - the last 3 are in the same unit but can be pulled apart )
http://www.vespamaintenance.com/fuel/carbrebuild/index.html

Then compare your results to the stock jetting :

carburetor: Dell'Orto SI 20/20 D

main jet: 109
slow running jet: 50
mixer tube: BE 2
starter jet: 60

Incidentally ... they made ~55,000 GS160's for comparison's sake (and even more SS180's ). The Rally 180, by all accounts, should be the rarest of the Sport models. It's just sorta glossed over for some reason. Probably because the panels are slightly less rounded than the SS180, and it lacks the trap headset which many people like. It's got all the styling of the Rally 200, but lacks the power / electronic ignition. ( which in the Femsa case is a good thing )

For lambretta comparisons, they made 11,000 of the TV200 ...which is considered to be the holy grail of lambrettas (it's the less adorned precursor to the SX200 ). They made ~30k of the SX200, which seems to be more recognized / well known, though, so it's a similar situation.


No matter how you slice it ..it's a bike that there's only 27,500 of at the time of production. No mention of how many are actually left of that number ( maybe guess half? ) How many made it to the USA vs shipped to other countries / continents? How many of what's left actually have the original paint left on them?

Sure I'll give it a shot. Probably do it over the weekend. This morning only using the choke sparingly it started after 5-6 kicks but same result after 25-30 minutes. Also meant to ask this. He put in synthetic smokeless 2 stroke oil. That OK? Still noticed a little smoke though!

Yeah... this is sounding more and more fuel related.

smokeless 2-stroke is fine. It still smokes, because a carbureted engine will always spit out SOME unburnt fuel-gas mix...regardless of how nice and expensive / supposedly clean the oil is when it DOES burn.

I got this scooter from my brother. Back in the early 90's had a Honda 900 that I traded for the 77 Vespa Rally 200 that he had. The person he got that from use to ride it to Maine and back. Had a lot of miles on it. At the same time of our exchange he went down his street to a yard sale and the person their sold him the 72 Rally 180 for fifty bucks. My brother had me store that one next to the one I had in my shed. Ran the 200 a while till there were issues with the electronics. 2006 sold the 200 to a "good" freind for peanuts not knowing values. My brother gave me the 180 since it sat for so long and I decided to get it running again. Always wanted a Vespa since the early 60"s when riding on my brothers Allstate around the yard when he went in the service. Didn't really know much about Vespa history till now. Learning a little at a time.

I've had similar problems on my Rally 180, sounds fuel related. I have found that my fuel tap, float needle and float need to be in perfect condition or the motor will flood and it will take multiple kicks to start.

Don't worry, we understand. 8)

Misery loves company Mike but I think I'm getting close to the problem.

Your right Rover Eric and the Numbers are main jet: 160, slow running jet was 50, mixer tube I assume under the main jet was BE3 below that was 105 and the starter jet was 60. Wish I had checked those things before I took it to the shop! Well the main jet is different ha!! Must of had carb. problems in the early days of this Rally's life. Looking at some old papers that jet may be for a Rally 200. I guess my next step is looking for the correct main jet. Thanks Eric for helping me with this. Chilly

It can't POSSIBLY be a 160 main jet. You're reading the number on the air corrector or something. check again. Remember that the main jet stack is comprised of 3 different brass pieces, each stamped with a different number.

The main jet is at the very bottom.

looks like this.

OK I see at the bottom it reads 105 and above that BE3.

So...there you go. Let's start with the stock jets and see if you have the same problems.

Depending on your altitude you may want to consider buying an idle jet of +/- 5 points either way, and a main jet +/- 2 either way. You have a 105, you need a 109, consider getting a 107 and a 111.

You're in Rhode Island, your altitude should be sea level, so i'd just run the stock jetting and see what we get.

-Eric

Sorry to be a dummy but is that Idle Jet part of the 3 piece main jet. Also scooterworks has a 107 or 109 Main SI Jet for carbs. The middle part of that JeT they call a Jet Atomizer BE2 which is out of stock. Noticed it had 4 holes where as the BE3 has 3. Took the one I had apart to see how it was done. Chilly

I was checking out the float and needle. Seeing how it worked,out of the bowl. Pushing it up and down seeing if it moved freely and noticed a little catch where it needed help. I moved the needle to a different position and it seemed better. Would it be better if instead of buying the different jets to just go ahead and get a new carb. Also I see the idle/slow running are the same. Chilly

While you could just buy a new 20/20 carb, it's going to be indian made at this point. Best luck is trying to find someone who has one without a spaco logo on it...

...or just make yours work. I think you're on the right track.

Forget about the BE2 / BE3 thing ...run the BE3, but get the Main jet and the Idle jet to be the proper sizes.

Ok will try that but in the meantime put everything back together and started the scoot after about 6 kicks. Not bad! But after a minute or so noticed gas flowing out under the carb box right under the slow running adjuster screw in backof the box. It was'nt coming out of where the screw is but I think under the box itself. Going to take the carb out again and follow those directions to take the carb. box out to see whats going on under there. Probably needs cleaning anyway. Chilly

Could be either a bad gasket underneath the carb box or a bad gasket underneath the carb...

I can tell that the guy a the shop did not bother pulling the carb box out. But their is a new gasket under the carb itself. I'll check it out. Thanks

Do yourself a big favor and take that bike to the folks at SCOOTERS O. and you will thank yourself. It is well worth the drive to Jersey and you will never have a problem again with the motor on that scoot. I have shipped those guys motors from Ohio to be rebuilt/restored. I put the motor back in the scoot adjust some cables, give it a kick and enjoy riding. Some things should be left to the pro's to get you started and then as you become more educated through forums like these you can learn things like how long the fuel lines need to be, timing and points etc....This way you start out with a more positive experience with your first vintage ride.

There are a lot of little things to learn in order to keep a vintage scoot on the road everday so go to Scooters O., let them get you started, build a relationship with them and then you can call them and get some invaluable advice to questions you may have in the future to keep the scoot running and reliable for years to come.

Just my two cents from years of vintage ownership.

Yeah, I suspect you might need a new airbox gasket. If there's fuel (or oil) leaking out from beneath it, the gasket could be bad, or the airbox could be loose. If there's extra gas flowing out from under the airbox, that could easily flood the motor. If it's leaking oil though, that would be more serious, because that would be oil that isn't making its way through the injection system into the engine, which could result in severe wear and/or failure. That is, assuming that you're using the oil injection system. Personally, I do recommend using it (as opposed to running premix), as long as the oil injection system is working properly.

In any event, when you check out the airbox, take care not to let the airbox screw fall down into the crankcase intake. Either turn the crank so the port is closed or use something to cover/block the intake. Take it from me, dropping little things down into engines can often be a real pain in the ass. Good luck, I hope you get her purring along soon!

I suppose I could do that and ship the engine to them but I feel like I'm so close to getting it right. But I did make a mistake removing the oil pump body thinking I needed to remove it to get the Carb box out. Chock that one up to inexperience!! Hope I put it back right. So it might end up going there anyway. Funny that I almost dropped a screw into the crackcase but the port happened to be closed making it easy to get it. WOW LUCKY!!! It was pretty dirty under the box and the gasket did have fuel on it. There may have been oil too but I think that was from removing the oil pump. I'm going to order gaskets, jets, float, float neddle and other things before I give up to the pro's. The scoot was sitting 15 years whats another year. Chilly