Modern Vespa

O.K. I am a little confused & want some clarity on this......The Femsa issue has got me thinking because I should know more about electrical than I do..


And I am unsure I have heard of Eric's fix before...or as I said...I am just confused.
A couple of things:



The original Femsa was available until 77?
The Ducati was available after?

So the Ducati conversion Eric spoke of in Jasons thread:
Is that simply replacing the Femsa coil with a newer Rally / P CDI & wiring it as Eric said is possible?

Does the newer P series CDI (first year 78?...till now) work with the original Stator /pickup with no issues?
Or is there the chance of blowing the pickup out. (As I recall Rally Pickups are made of unobtainium.)


I recall Scootermarc blowing a couple out when trying to sort some electrical issues on his old Rally a couple years ago & it was not a happy time for him....luckily he is a pack rat.


As far as unavailable / hard to find parts on a Rally stator...Pickup, Femsa coil...Original Ducati CDI? (as came with the Rally)....Flywheel?





Also for a complete P /Euro stator conversion:

what is needed?:
1. P200 crank
2. P200 Stator....Non battery?
3. P CDI
4. P Flywheel....(different crank tapers than Rally)




Thanks in advance...I just feel like learning something useful today

Hi Mate. To answer your questions

Yes
Yes
yes

Can you call me...... Yes?

Cheers

First of all Thom. that was scoot b that burned a couple femsa style ignitions and pickups trying to replace my harness with a super harness. I had to point out to him that he essentialy was wiring the positive of the battery into my ignition circut. But thanks for bringing that up.

search the bbs, very recently kristian explained how to wire the ducati cdi as a direct replacement for the femsa, no stator/flywheel/crank swap necessary.

to do the crank conversion of course you need the flywheel and stator too. the stator requires some material removed to sit flush on the rally case, and in retro spect even a little off the lip where the fly side seal seats would be usefull.

The rallys produced at some point in 77 used a p style engine, but had the VSE1M DESIGNATION.

Also, motorsport has a femsa style replacement cdi available. it is big and ugly, and knowing that a ducati cdi can be used, i dont see the point. scooterworks had some triggers come in a year or so ago,so they may be available again.

HA!....easiest answer ever


I only ask because Jason seems to be digging into the heart of it right now & good sticky (Then I can transfer it to our website tech stickys...which are lacking because we are too busy talking shit to each other on our club message board) would be killer.

Sorry Jeanshorts, I actually wasn't trying to pour lemon juice on your paper cut....But I recall the shenanigans that occurred with that bike.
Lots of sitting on the ground at Moto P, cursing & head scratching.
EDIT: Bob fucked up Jeanshorts bike....Haw......duly noted...

Now to the Kristian S. conversion.....Is this fix something that is relatively new & ingenious because of the hatred/lack of Femsa coils.....
And the fact that not everyone feels like cracking their case for the P swap?

Or has it been around for awhile?


P & Rally motors overlapped the last year...Check....I did know that

I hadn't heard of it before, but Kristian seems to be the man with the intimate understanding of the femsa workings. the post has a testimonal that it worked too.

Thom, Sorry mate I prefer talking. I can't type.

I am wrenching in my garage if you are also wrenching please feel free to pm me and i will give you my number.

Cheers

Totally understood...I am chained to my desk downloading software in a bunch of laptops so internetting fits into the schedule.....Soon it is out to the shop for some sheet meta. bending


I am filling the memory banks so when my chance at a Rally 200 pops up I can scratch this worry off the list.

Plus I do enjoy knowing some facts to pass on to my friends.

Here you go, my friend...

the pictorial "how-to" for putting a ducati CDI on a femsa stator.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060219050459/http://hortadasvespas.planetaclix.pt/tecnica/conversao/conversaoi.htm


I had to look it up on the internet archive ...

Fucking A.........And there you have it....Thanks Eric.

Just printed it to file it away in my parts book.

Hey Jess,

Add this to the best threads list!

I never got to respond to this part.

You are correct - you would need all of these things to convert to a TRUE P200 style electrical system on your rally. I would really only consider it if you had a P200 crank laying around, or your rally one took a shit.

In addition to your list, you need a different thickness bearing .... i want to say you need a T5 flyside or clutchside bearing. I've never done this conversion ( always sorta found it excessive once i realize you could just do the ducati swapout ) so i can't really remember for sure.

-Eric

this thread does rock - I just got my parts from Scooterworks today. One good thing about being in Northwest Ohio is that I am right by Chicago. I literally ordered these parts two days ago and got them today:

Motul 2T oil (forgot the gear oil)
Blue Ducati CDI
Spark plug cable (ordered before reading Thom's suggestions)
NGK spark cap (once again, before reading Thom's advice)
condenser (one wire)

I already have a solder gun, and everything else I should need. I bought a bunch of different female/male connecters for the wire ends as well. I'm gonna start working on it later today (I stayed away from the beer today just for this reason - normally I would have had a couple). The only problem is the damn FLYWHEEL, as I mentioned in other threads.

I have the nut off the flywheel and am trying to get the actual wheel off, but nothing works. I have tried various tools and methods, so I am just gonna put the nut back on with a grommet washer that I bought, and redo the wiring for the CDI so I can ride. I need to get to the stator to check over some things, but oh well... I don't even know what I am looking for in there, but the condenser was installed on the outside of the stator (near the CDI) and at the very least, I need to put it where it belongs. Why it was installed there - I don't know. I talked to the shop where it was worked on when the conversion was done, but they didn't give me a reason. Based on the improper location of the condenser, I am assuming that there are other hidden problems in the stator, but the peace of mind of opening it up and checking will not be had. Enough with the sob story, I'm gonna print out that link that Eric posted and begin...

I will let you know how it turns out.

-Jason

well, i installed the CDI, did the wiring (with the condenser still where it was - on the flywheel case), checked everything over, and went to start it...nothing. I'm now thinking that I might have accidentally messed up the stator while fiddling with the flywheel - SHIT! I had a running scooter that only needed 'minor' work and now it won't run. Troubleshooting sucks, esp. when I don't have all the necessary skills to troubleshoot.

In hindsight, I hope I bought the right CDI. Here is a link to it:

http://www.scooterworks.com/CDI_High_Tension_Coil_-_VSX_P851C89.cfm.

any thoughts while sit and stool for a while...

-Jason

I was recently told by a Vespa Tech whose background is vintage bikes, but now works as a tech at a modern vespa shop, that you can (believe it or not) use an ET2 cdi as a replacement for the Femsa.

I'm not smart enough to know if this is true or not, but he's a good tech, an honest guy, and he says it works. Alternatively, the same cdi is on the Piaggio Typhoon.

In response to this, you can buy a kit from Scooterworks that has everything you need to upgrade to the P200 electrical. It has the flywheel, stator, CDI, etc... It's also cheaper than buying all the individual parts and I am thinking of doing this now that I probably f'ed up my stator. I just saw it in the magazine that they sent me with my last order.

Does it come with a P200 crank & the bearings? (I cant remember what bearings my friend used in his conversion.....whether they were as Eric states....Wider?...or larger Diameter...I dont recall.)

Interesting

nope - doesn't have the crank or the bearings. prob. means I shouldn't go that route. I am wondering if I bought the wrong condenser. I bought the simple one-wire type, which is what it had. guess I better get my bicycles tuned back up - work starts on Monday...

Thom - you mentioned something about prepping yourself for a Rally someday. I am about ready to sell this damn thing.

Hi Mate, Don't sell it EVER. These scooter are one of the best scooters ever made.

Hang in there mate and dust yourself off. Your next posting may read

Cheers

No worries Jim - I needed to vent. I'm just grateful for all your help - seriously! Plus, school's starting up soon (I am a teacher), and I always get a little anxious about going back. Summer rocks - I get to do whatever I want, but once school starts, it's busy, busy, busy...

The little time I have had with this scooter was AMAZING, and I won't sell it. I will get it to run well, even if it takes a while. But of course it's sad for anyone when their wheels are taken from them. I am fed up with cycling to work - I usually arrive in a bad mood, but in the Vespa, I am filled with vigor after riding - it's hard to describe. I just feel bad asking so damn many peevish questions and taking all you guys' time. I sure do appreciate it though.

-Jason

as usual, i'm late to the party...

i've done the ducati CDI conversion and it works well. i've done the full boogie crank replacement as well and i think it should be considered anytime you need bearings or crank work on the motor.

thom, SIP sells the conversion as a package deal but it's 600bux...

best,
-greasy

Jim,

Here is the link to the updated pics after flywheel removal. That line of rust is what prevented easy removal of the flywheel.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29280826@N07/?saved=1

what do you think?

I think hit it with a wire brush on a dremel tool or something to get rid of the rust.

You're going to need to pull off that cam / sleeve thing that's stuck behind it at some point.

Link it bitch...(if you can as SIP's site can be a bit wonky).

Greasy,
Does it contain everything including the bearings?....If so that is pretty sweet.

Can you list the bearings needed if you know it & their corresponding Japanese or German bearing equivalents?







Don't sell that bike Jason...When it runs well you will never want to ditch it.
It is quite addictive....
It will get sorted & the knowledge you gain is priceless.

Scotch brite that rust off....by hand so you don't damage the taper or take material off.

Well after a 45 minute grunting session over the phone the flywheel did indeed come off.

Modern life is good. That fact that there are a handful of members on here that give sound advise and encouragement to fellow scooterists, fuels my soul.

Very big cheers

If you ever come to So Cal, Id love to sit down with you, hear some cool stories and have a couple of beers with you.


Manny

Hi Mate, Just a couple of beers

I would enjoy that mate.

Cheers

gad, do i have to spoon feed you everything?!?!

SIP item #J5001900


it looks like you'd need a fresh clutch bearing and clutch side seal and then a gasket set to do the whole boogie.

yeah, i just added up the coin to purchase the pieces individually and it's pretty much the same price. what excites me is a NEW electric start flywheel and euro stator! knock the ring gear off the 'wheel and you've got a lighterweight piece ready to rumble.

now, if you scored some parts from Used Power & Speed Equip out of North Hollywood, Ca. you could probably make something like this happen alot cheaper....

as for the bearings: i *think* the flyside is a NU2205. but don't quote me till i look at my notes.

as for sip... check this out it makes me tight in the pants...

i MUST stop perusing the SIP site. it makes me want to spend silly amounts of money.

best,
-greasy

I've never ordered anything from SIP, do you have to pay big shipping and duty costs?

in a word, yes.

shipping etx usually runs about 75 or so.

but, i've ordered stuff you can't get *anywhere* else and had it in my hands 72hrs later.

like everything: you pays your money, you takes your chances.

generally it's a good idea to get together with a few folks and place a big order and split the shipping.

best,
-greasy

Jackass....I will be saving all this info & posting it up on our site as well...



I would bet this setup would be even nicer with the Tamani (spelling?) crank or the P2 crank they had in Scootering a few issues ago (bigger oil passages Kawasaki con rod????....or something like that.....I will post it later.

Nice looking piece...(Mazzucellis aren't that great if you ask me ....I have seen too many look shitty right out of the box.....cockeyed crap.)

If you are patient you can call most of the usuall us sources and special order via their next sip order. That can save you the $85 shipping on that $15 T5 cylinder shroud. On the other hand, expect it in about 2-3 months versus 5-10 days.

As far as Rallies go, I wonder how many people have gone years with Femsa and had no troubles. The question is whether it is truly necessary to switch over to the Ducati preemptively. I know that some people would spend the $80 some dollars to do it right away, but I also know that some people ride on the Femsa and have no complaints.

I can see why people would switch after having problems with the Femsa, so, I'm just gonna keep a Ducati on the shelf and ride on the Femsa until a problem occurs. Thoughts from all you Rally owners.

so long as you give credit where credit is due-- unlike some other people that are cut and past specialists. but you know i love you, right? c'mon... let's hug it out... yeah, anything you can do to make the p2 into a long rod is a good thing.
the mazzys are okay for production work, but if you're anal about a build i'd take a stocker over one of them any day of the week. as for performance cranks... man where to even start...

but aftermarket rod and special lips?
now you're just talkin' crazy my friend!

best,
-greasy

Credit shmedit...I just made you my bitch finding all the info...HA!...

(Almost as good as the Stafford ride rules debacle a few years back....excellent.)

Of course Greasy...credit where credit is due....



I am into clean high quality stock parts....I skipped the Mazz crank on my P2 motor becuase of how shitty the finish was.

Here is the article below....It is basically a high quality stock replacement.
(And available as long rod)....
BGM...(I should have figured as they are making some pretty cool shit lately)





As for Jason...I would run what is working until it dies & then replace it.
But I also like upgrading things .

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/pages/index.php?PORTAL=Froogle&COUNTRY=US&ID=19125&PORTALID=0&EXPLODIM=px&_requested_page=%2Fpages%2Fdetails.php

I'll be doing this conversion soon with a Maz cut race crank, malossi 210 top end and other goodies.

i keep my Rally 200 Femsa but with the Ducati cdi and it works better than it ever did before. I did also have to replace my pickup with a new one, bought from Scooterworks, which i then had to file down to get it to fit, Use a feeler gauge to properly space it in relation to the cam.I have had electrical problems, though nothing as major as rewiring the stator. the reason I replaced the CEAB coil (Femsa repro) was because they simply seem to be garbage. I burned out 2 of them this summer. I've not had a problem since I switched to the Ducati.

I usually keep a spare Ducati coil in my glovebox just in case.
On your Rally are gettin no spark at all? positive that the kill switch isn't shorted out?
Possible that maybe the cdi switch you did is correct? Maybe is has to be a Ducati and not just any P coil?
Maybe replace the pickup, or at least verify the gap?


I really want your Rally to work as I struggled all June with electrical issues and our scooters are mostly very similar. I'm partial to Rally and want more of them out being ridden.