Modern Vespa

So, my brother in law is who got me into Vespa's in the first place. He's had quite a few vintage restores (done himself), and even used to race Vespa Small Frames.

Anyway, he currently has a couple small frames, a lambretta, and is in the process of putting together a 1966 "Sears Bluebadge" Vespa 125. (It unfortunately is in terrible shape... body is beat to hell, cracked etc.)

Anyway, enough of my back story...

Point is, I'm interested in getting a vintage education. I'd love to be able to:

1) have a solid guess at a model based on it's body characteristics
2) be able to tell the difference between a cheap asia bike versus the "real deal"
3) understand the body lingo.
4) know what is a classic/original part versus a modern replacement part on a model

(Probably in that order too)

I ask my bro-in-law questions all the time, but I'd love to be able to speak the language, you know? When he tells me something, I'd love to know what he's talking about. Furthermore, I'd love to be able to assist him in some of his rebuilds, and be able to spot a good deal on body/parts/bikes when I see them.

So where do I begin? Pictures obviously help. Anyone know of a really good book, or great website? Maybe even a thread right here on Modern Vespa?

Pictures really do help... for example, I previously saw a 67 Primavera on craigs list, and sent it to my bro in law. He said you can tell it's likely a bad version by the "trapezoidal headset and detachable cowls"... what the hell is a cowl? I see it talked about frequently, and I STILL don't know what it is.

Anyway... help? I'd really appreciate it.

Hmm...so many questions ... gimme a min and i'll try to write up something for you.

In the meanwhile, a cowl is this :



They're the pieces of metal that tend to cover the engine, or a spare tire, or are a bolted on glovebox, depending on the model ...

alright ...here's chapter 1 ...answer to your first question :

1) have a solid guess at a model based on it's body characteristics

Alright ...so lets focus specifically on Vespas. Vespas are divided into 3 different categories, each with its own engine topology which is INCOMPATIBLE with the other categories : Smallframe, Largeframe, and Widebody / wideframe.

Widebody's came first, beginning in 1946 and the last surviving production widebody probably being the 1961 GS150. These are called "widebody's" because they have a really wide swingarm on the engine.....and the cowls on them stick out REALLY far, giving them a very rounded tail. The most identifiable characteristic to me as far as whether a scooter is a "widebody" or not is whether it has a door underneath where the fuel lever / choke knob tends to be ( 6-10" below the seat, forward facing on the frame ). This door almost always allows access to the carburetor of the engine ( though not always - the GS150's carb is mounted on the engine itself ). Any of the old fenderlight vespas ( faro basso ), Rod models, 'handlebar bikes' meaning they had tubular metal handlebars rather than a substantial cast headset like most later bikes, any Vespa Allstate up to and including 1957 ... these were all widebody's. They were all 8" wheeled bikes with the exception of the GS150 and GL150, which had 10" wheels ( the deluxe models ). On all of these bikes, the engine side cowl was typically detachable, or at least swung up on a hinge to give access to the engine. The other side cowl was a glovebox. ( click here for a pic of a "fenderlight" http://www.vespaclub.com/tecnica/1954-125.jpg )

Largeframes - these came next, beginning around 1957 ( the VNA being the first i'm aware of ). This was the mainstay of the vespa line, boasting the most amount and variance of models within the category. The smallest displacement largeframe was a 125cc ( the late 50's / early 60's VNB 3-speed 125cc engine, and largest being the P200. It underwent a constant evolution throughout the decades ... the early 60's bikes being rounded like their widebody precursors ( bikes like the VNB, VBB and GS160 ), but the mid 60's marked a switch in styles to a more sleek and angular look ( the SS180, Sprint, Super, etc ). In the late 70's they switched over to a VERY angular, boxy styling called the "P-series" and replaced some of the normally metal components with plastic. All through the eras, there was always a 'sport' or deluxe model ..the GS, the SS, the Rally, the P200... these bikes always had a Glovebox inside the front legshield, rather than the side cowl. The cowl became a cover for the spare tire, and so the cowls had to be sufficiently large enough to hold the 10" tire. Budget largeframes tended to be 125 or 150cc, with 8" wheels... and if you spent more money you got a 10" wheeled model and higher displacement 150cc or whatever the sport bike was boasting (160,180,200 ). The largeframes continued on into the 80's: the P-series, T5 and even the Vespa Cosa are all largeframe vespas and their engines are all compatible with eachother ( with some tweaking in some cases ). A common thing for people who want the styling of a 60's scooter but the power and reliability of a P-series is to install a Pseries or Stella engine into an older largeframe bike like a GL or Sprint. ( here's a pic of a largeframe... in this case, a '63 GL150 : http://www.vespaclub.com/tecnica/vespa-56-64/1963-150GL-high.jpg )

Smallframes - Starting in 1963 they did a completely different engine topology ...made it much more compact, slimmed down the scooter, and made it smaller and lighter. This was the smallframe ...and rather than having detachable cowls on the sides like the largeframe and widebody, it had a single-piece body with just an access door. ( sometimes just on the engine side, sometimes on both sides depending on the year / model ) It lacked the prominent "hips" of the previous vespa models. This was a more streamlined bike - one that actually completely changed the styling of ALL vespa offerings after it. The release of the smallframe marked the end of the curvaceous 50's and early 60's styling, and heralded in the stylings of the SS180 and Sprint. Smallframe engine displacement tends to be 50cc - 125cc, but they can still be very torquey engines. A 125cc smallframe will run circles around a 125cc largeframe...probably a 150cc largeframe as well. The power to weight ratio is much higher. They are also quite good for tuning, as the engine can withstand more beating than most largeframe engines, and as such the fastest racing vespas tend to be kitted smallframes.

Here's a pic of a smallframe : a primavera ( http://www.vespaclub.com/tecnica/1968-125primavera.jpg )

you need to write this all up and put it on the vietbodge page.

There needs to be a "I'm not worthy" Wayne's World style emoticon for threads like this, and posts like Eric's....


.... awesome info.... all I know about Vespa's I learned for MV and RoverEric...

2) be able to tell the difference between a cheap asia bike versus the "real deal"

I gotta just refer you to my sigfile link on this one. Most of what you see on ebay as far as bikes for sale ...is garbage. The link in my sigfile should help you identify most of the easily-identifiable garbage out there, but there are bad viet restorations ...there's bad "italian" restorations... and bad US restorations ... so my advice to you is just to do a lot of research, know what a bike is supposed to look like ... know which parts are supposed to be attached where, and ride every bike you can get your hands on to give you an idea of what a GOOD bike should feel like versus one with issues. I try to steer people towards the most original condition looking bikes i can find, because its the best gauge i can see WITHOUT ACTUALLY TOUCHING IT of how much a bike has been ridden ...fucked with ....cared for ... etc. If a 30+ year old paint job still sparkles like the sun, it's probably been sitting unused in a garage or been VERY well handled or lightly ridden. If it's beat to hell and rattle canned, chances are the engine or electrical system or cables were given about the same level of respect and maintenance.

Hopefully you end up with a good one and can make it even better.

Hmm, I was always under the impression an Allstate was considered a large frame. Thanks for clarifying!

Wow! Thank you so much for the info so far... very informative. (Your sig link I read as well... GREAT use of pics and descriptions, not to mention the fact that I can start to get "a little" of the lingo based on the descriptiveness)

To add to the confusion, Vespa Allstates actually spanned ALL THREE topologies!!

The early allstates ( 1951-1957 ) were all wideframes... then switched to largeframes in 1958 - 1965 ....

then in 1966 they released a smallframe AND a largeframe.


Think of it this way : the SHITTIEST model that vespa had at the time was always sold as the allstate ( so, for most years it was a 3 speed, 125cc engine with 8" wheels ) ... in '63 or '64 they went to 4-speed gearbox ... and then, for some odd reason, they released a Sears Sprint (10" wheel, 150cc 4-speed ) + and Primavera (4 speed, 10" wheeled, 125cc ) in 1966.

And that was it.

Where did that topic go where Jess was looking for the "best" MV threads?

I can see that this one is going to rank up there with NSR: BEWARE RED LOBSTER SCAM!

Serously though, great info.

As far as weird names for scooter body parts :

Headset = the cast aluminum portion that most people would call "handlebars". It's a headset because it contains the shifter and throttle tubes, but is a single cast piece of metal ... and not reall "bar" shaped like the vespas that really DO have handlebars.

Vespa headset :


versus a "handlebar" model:

Yes, i realize there's a small cast "headset" that holds the headlight and sometimes the speedo, even on a handlebar bike. This one is a '57-ish Allstate widebody. Note the carb access door under the seat like i purported that all widebody vespas have.




All vespas have a "legshield" .. as in the area that would be protecting your knees from dirt and the wind. Most lambrettas also have a legshield, but as we discussed recently in another thread, the early lambretta models A-F only have a half-legshield.

I am a proud owner of shit! I was born and raised in a cow town, so it's a match.

what are the other weird body part names....hmmm..*Scratches chin*


Well, on a vespa you have the "horncast" ...which is actually a term that carries over from lambrettas. This is the stylistic area that juts out from the frame in order to mount the horn. On vespas, this is just a stamped piece of steel that's been spot-welded to the actual legshield.

But the name came from lambrettas, where this piece was actually cast like the vespa headset is ... Horn ...cast ... horncast.

Vespa horncast :

(compare the plastic horncast on the left from the Vespa P-series ...which is removable and which obscures an unadorned horn, to the welded on one of the '74 Vespa Super to the right. Since the horn is exposed, it tends to be chromed and have interesting grill designs in the shape of flowers or shells )


Lambretta horncast ( actually cast metal ):

Seriously...if it wasn't for reading Eric's info on "How to Tell if it's a Vietbodge"..I could have been easily one of those suckers that bought a Vietbodge Death Trap! Thanks Eric for all the good info you put out there!

holy shit this is the best thread ever...

who wants to buy mt ET4 so i can get a vintage bike!

eric, you need to a section on gloveboxes, specifically, RALLY gloveboxes

Actually, everything i'm trying to explain right now is all summed up pretty well on this website. Just click down the models on the right hand side to get a good idea of aesthetics, amenities, production specs, etc.

http://www.scooterlounge.com/Vespa/VBB/VBB.shtml

Hey Eric... all this info is awesome. Keep it coming and thanks!

I know it's hard to cram so much obsure knowledge into a single post based on very generic questions, but I think you're doing a great job, so thanks again!

Nice job Eric. One of the vets that know their chit.

+1 There were only 3 people who convinced me to get a vintage. One I never met, but only knew online...Rover Eric.

Thanks for your patience with my lame, newbie to old, inquires. You rock, dude!

glad i can help. I'm no expert, and i'm sure i'm wrong on some of this stuff : when you make blanket statements like ALL wideframes were blah blah you're bound to be proven false by some oddball model they made 10 of, and some smartass who knows more than i do

But ask whatever questions you want and i'll try to educate.


I remembered another vespa body-specific term yesterday that i wanted to share :

Roundtail versus Squaretail.

Prior to 1962, all vespas were roundtail, meaning the rear of the bike was actually curved in such a way that you couldn't mount a flat license plate on it without the use of a little braket plate that would hold it aloft and away from the frame. Starting in mid-1962 they made a change in which EVERY largeframe vespa was changed over to having a square-tail... a big flat square area where you could mount a european licenseplate flat to the frame without the need for a bracket.

Round tail : ( prior to 1962 )

This is a VNB round tail, so pre-1962 production


Square tail : ( mid-1962 and onward )
this is a GS160 square tail

can you enlighten me on seats? i was under the impression that piaggio never actually made the seats, so they shouldn't say vespa or piaggio on an original one. aren't they supposed to be badged aquila? urban legend?

Both seats you see above are repops AFAIK, with the silkscreened "piaggio" on them.

SOMEONE told me once that there were "piaggio" silkscreened benchseat covers like the one above originally ... but i've never seen a real one... only shitty repops. I want some expert to ring in on this and settle it once and for all.

In my mind, "Aquilia" tends to riveted on most original vespa seat covers, and some A.Rejna ones. "Guiliari" made most of the original lambretta seat covers ( though, i think Aquilia might have done some covers for lambrettas as well ). Guiliari also made the stock seat for the vespa ET3, if i remember correctly.
Then remember there were 3rd party accessory seats.... RINI, Covalo, DAMSI, etc.... i've got an old 60's accessory bench seat for a VBB or VNB and i have no idea who made the thing.

So, my point is that a vespa or lambretta must have dozens of aftermarket manufacturer parts on it : seats ( guliari or aquiilia), headlights and taillights and light switches (siem), speedos ( veglia ), horns ( like 5 different companies), you hear me talking about the original stainless legshield trim for my SS180 or GS160, made by ULMA, electrical systems by ducati or FAEMSA, and on and on... just like car companies make very few of the actual components of cars ...they kinda just put the whole thing together.

When i see a vespa or piaggio logo on a component like a seat or horn, it just smacks of "repop part", because i'm pretty sure piaggio didn't have time to be making seats when they were busy stamping out metal frames, turning out engines and assembling whole bikes. They left the small stuff to OEM's.

Again - i want someone to prove me wrong and say "this is the stock seat cover that came on my bike ... a bench seat with a silkscreened 'piaggio' logo" so my mind can be changed.

Nice bumper sticker!

Ray, you may have as Eric likes to say, "the shittiest Vespa model" but I don't think anyone can deny that large frame round tails are just down right sexy! Can't wait to see if after body work and paint!

I didn't mean it like that ... i mean "the lowest end" ..like, their most budget-minded model. I don't mean shitty like it sucks. I'd take an allstate over a whole slew of other scooters.

I know what ya mean 8)

Isn't it funny though how the 125U (I believe that is the model) the basic poor mans model is now very rare and expensive? (according to Vespa-Style in Motion) Guess they just didn't make very many?

a great breakdown on models and differences between years is the old scooterworks catalog (the one prior to their current). it had a two page spread of all the models up to the p-series, and they also had great breakdowns of both the small and large frame motors.

and it's free!

Yup, I also dig the round end. The curves are just so very sexy! I spoke with Barry today. Confirmed the original fender will work. Surgery scheduled to begin Tuesday, 10.07.08!

If all goes well, I think the bike will be done by the end of the month. Perfect timing! I should be up and back riding just in time. I'll call you when she's ready to be mounted again.

Awesome! That's great to hear

Wow, this thread is great. I know an okay amount about vintage, but I never really thought about the round tail, square tail thing and the pics were great.

So Eric, I currently have three Rally's in the stable (long story, am trying to thin the heard ) all with that silkscreened Piaggio bench seat. How do I tell if any of them are actually the original? I would be thrilled to know if one of them was actually 'correct' for the bike. Let me know what to look for and I'll take pics so we can debate this!

Great thread. Too bad it's buried under 8 years of old threads. Found this looking for educational resources for a friend.

He does a very good description of different models and what to look for.

A great place to start, in addition to here.

fabulous thread, yes. helps prove that anyone that really does their homework should be happy with the scoot they end up with, regardless of where it's from. it's all relative. if you don't try to get educated and end up with a prettied-up frozen motored rustcan of a machine......that's on you.