Modern Vespa

I use my GTV everyday, and today it won't start. It's a 2007 with 1,300 miles. Had it's 700 mile service about 2 months ago.

My symptoms are: Turn the key on, headlight comes on full bright, but nothing at all happens when I try to start it. The immobilizer red light runs solid after about 5 seconds with the key in the on position.

I've searched the forums and checked the obvious:

Kill switch - checked, flipped many times, and don't feel any looseness in the button itself.
Brake Lever - I am pulling it as firmly as one should.
Fuses in glove box, under seat hinge and under seat rear left - checked each one twice and re-seated firmly.
Battery - connections look solid, wires don't appear to be touching the frame.
Spark plug - to be honest, not sure what i'm supposed to do here, but it did not appear loose.
Horn - tried honking the horn repeatedly, while it works I did not appreciate the attention given my situation.
Keys - thought perhaps the blue key was not being recognized, so I tried the brown key, no better.

Is there anything I am missing before I take it back to the dealer?

On the bright side, it's a beautiful 80 degree day in West Los Angeles, so I rode my beach cruiser the 5 miles to work.

This means ignition is not possible.

Immediately after you turn the key to ON, how many flashes does the immobiliser LED give before going solid ON?

You handle it this time, Jim old buddy...

When I turn the key to on:

it immediately flashes red once
then 3 seconds later it flashes red once (the orange engine light also briefly disappears)
then 2 seconds later it goes solid red

Hope that helps. The Vespa was purchased new in April 2008, so I would believe something like this is under warranty?

have you tried both keys?

Trust me it will be the antenna on the immobiliser. Check code light

http://manuals.wotmeworry.org.uk/useful%20info/Immobilizer_Fault_Finding.pdf

try that look at page 6

then if it is the transponder not being detected then you will need to get them to water proof it. Will be under warranty my local (unfortunately 70 miles from me) did it for me and got it waterproofed. Things like this should have been done before selling. So it is not Piaggio's fault it is the garage who sold it to you . . . . .

As Jim and others have said, it's probably the immobilizer.
You can check yourself by taking off the glove box assembly where you will see a RING that goes around the ignition switch. If that ring has become dislodged, it will display the symptoms you have posted. This happened to me when I bought our first GTS and I did not understand how the immobilizer functioned. Once I searched some old posts, I discovered the problem and BINGO, problem fixed. In my case, I had caused the problem when I had removed the glove box to run some wiring for a power outlet to the left knee pad area. But others have had their immobilizer ring become dislodged by hitting a hard bump in the road or by the scooter falling over. Once the ring is snapped into position properly, it's not likely to come back out with normal usage.
Or.................you can trailer it or have it towed to the dealer.
Good luck!

It is the immobilizer. According to the error code, the ECU has lost communication with the antenna. The "antenna" is actually more than just that; it has an RF modem integrated into its housing. The problem could be, in order of seriousness:

1) The antenna connector was not fully mated at the factory, and has come loose. This is the most likely problem. The antenna connector can be pushed home without removing the leg shield cover. Remove the horn cover; there is an opening behind it through which you can poke a long screwdriver and push the connector back into place. It will snap when it is fully engaged.

2) Fuse #2 (7.5 amps) is blown. The fuse is in the engine compartment, under the saddle hinge. Find the cause of the blown fuse (possibly a short at the injection loads relay - the small grey plastic box on the left side of the engine compartment) and replace the fuse.

3) There is a bad connection or broken wire to the antenna. Remove the leg shield cover. Unplug the antenna connector. Inspect the connector and its mating recepticle for damage. With the key switch turned ON, confirm that there is 12V between the red/white wire and the black wire. Then open the saddle and remove the pet carrier. With the key switch turned OFF, disconnect the ECU connector at the throttle body. Inspect the connector and its mating recepticle for damage. Confirm that there is continuity between pin 7 at the ECU connector, and the orange/white wire at the antenna connector. If either of these checks is bad, there is a bad connection or broken wire that will have to be traced down and repaired.

4) The antenna is defective. It is non-reparable and will have to be replaced. Part number is 638534.

All of this would be covered under warranty.

Thanks for all the tips.

I removed the horn cover and checked the RF connector - it was nice and tight.
I removed the leg shield to examine the RF connector and the 'ring'. I couldn't see anything amiss.
I re-checked the fuses under the seat hinge.
I disassembled the kill switch / starter housing to see if anything looked strange, nothing.

At this point my tinkering will probably do more damage, the Vespa is only 5 months old and under warranty, so I had it towed to the dealer.

I will report back with the diagnosis.

Best option done. Hope it is not down for long. Good Luck.

So I had the GTV towed to the dealer Friday night. They first looked at it on Tues morning and it started first time for them. They were not able to re-create the immobilizer error. I picked the GTV up tonight - no charge.

Now for my next, self-induced, problem

My glove box won't open. When I push the key in, it kind of feels dead. Did I re-assemble the leg shield incorrectly? I didn't pay attention to the plastic arm that operates the glove opener - could it be possible that I screwed up?

I tried pushing in the key and then use a plastic spatula to pry it open, but no luck. Please PM me if you know how to open the glove box under these circumstances.

glove box is fixed.

Update:

Last week the Vespa would not start again, after a 2 minute trip to the ATM. I wheeled it home. The next morning it started fine, however, later in the day it would not start. I called Piaggio Roadside Assistance and had it towed back to the dealer again.
Luckily this time they were able to see the same issue (immobilizer light running constant after 2 flashes) and they had a Vespa specialist look at it too. He said the coils in the RF Antenna were breaking down, so a new RF Antenna will be installed under warranty.

yay for stuff being fixed correctly.

Excellent; that ought to do it.
I had this very problem. The worst of it was the 6-week wait for the part - that was painful. Hope yours comes much sooner.

Finally, the RF Antenna has arrived and was installed today. I'm off to pick it up tomorrow. It seems like ages since I was on a Vespa!

I know it has been awhile since this issue was addressed however I am curious if you have had any further problems dealing with starting ?

Thank You

Mine's running (and starting) like a top 1000 miles and almost five months later.

jwhcowan?

Perfect here!

Thanks to you both, While I have a BV 250 I think the Engines etc. are the same ??? Anyway I have had two Immobilizers replaced and it is back in the shop the 3rd time for the same sporatic problem they now are talking about replacing the ECU ??? This is the first Scooter I have owned and know little or nothing about the mechanics of them so I am at the mercy of the Dealership to find the problem only has 1300 miles on it and problems since purchasing July of 08

Thanks Again

John

Yes; both the BV and the GTS have QUASAR engines.

A bad immobilizer antenna is a very rare occurrence; jwhcowan and I just got "lucky." But to have two go bad in succession is a real stretch to believe. And now the ECU is suspect? ECUs are extremely reliable, and replacing one is pretty radical surgery.

I'm not getting a warm feeling about your shop. It sounds to me like they're "shotgun troubleshooting" - not troubleshooting at all, but just guessing at what the problem might be, and replacing parts pretty much at random until something finally fixes it. And while they're fumbling around, you're without your new bike you just paid good money for.

What are your bike's symptoms?

Will not start while pressing the start button (like the key is not on) Key is in the on position,brake depressed, kick stand up,kill switch in the run position

Press the start button and nothing ! I think you are correct in your assumption that they are just taking stabs at it.

I misspoke when I said they had replaced two immobilizers, in actuality they replaced one and reset the same one after it jarred loose ??? I know a little about auto engines from the 60s and 50s before they put all of the electronics in them that there are today and I know absolutely zilch about scooter engines as the current one is the one and only I have ever owned so I feel somewhat at their mercy for the repairs etc.

1) So, when you press the start switch, you get no starter motor at all, right?
2) Not even not so much as a click?
3) Does that bike have an "engine disabled" light on the panel? if so, I assume that's not lit?
4) Does the "engine disabled" light come on with the kill switch in the kill position?
5) Does you brake light come on when you apply the brakes?

Each question checks a different part of the circuit, so I need an answer to each one. Hope all this doesn't seem too tedious...

1. Correct
2. Correct
3. No specific light to indicate "engine disabled"
4. Same as Number 3
5. Yes

And not a problem at All Thannk You

What sequence of flashes does the immobiliser LED give, and does it then stay on?

http://www.wotmeworry.org.uk/manuals/useful%20info/Immobilizer_Fault_Finding.pdf

Jim I will download your link and get back to you next time I go to start it and it does not start. Problem is it is sporatic and sometimes it will go for some time and then wham ! problem occurs. I am about to head out for the day going to a swim meet for my Nephew but I will get back to ALL as soon as I can with further diagnosis.

Thanks for your Time !

Jim, I've got a diagram of the BV250 starter circuit. The immobilizer is not part of the circuit; I believe it inhibits ignition only.

Hmm... On the BV250 the ground for the starter relay comes from the ECU/immobiliser. So it may (or may not) affect it. If the brake lights come on then 12V should be going to the starter relay via the starter button. No 'click' would indicate either the starter button was dirty or the ground wasn't present via the ECU/immobiliser.

So I'd suggest getting a meter, seeing if 12V s getting to the coil of the starter relay when ignition on, brakes applied and starter button pressed, and also that the starter relay coil is indeed grounded.

That is odd - our diagrams must be different. The diagram I have shows the low side of the relay coil going only through the kill switch and the sidestand switch to get to ground. Check the shop manual version first, but I think you'll agree that these two diagrams are equivalent.

But I would certainly agree with you that if the immobilizer is indeed in the ground path of the relay coil, the relay would be inhibited if the immobilizer were inop.

EDIT: attachments deleted.

I was assuming this was the BV250 i.e., not the much older BV250 (carb) model. The BV250 i.e. and the GTV250 have very similar circuits.

Activate layer 4 on the wiring diagram below to see the starting components - the ground for the starter relay comes from pin 24 of the ECU, and that pin is labelled 'Starting on'. That suggests it has some 'control'. No certainty mind, this is Italian electrics we're trying to unravel.

BV250 i.e. diagram at:
http://www.wotmeworry.org.uk/manuals/Beverley/BV%20250%20i.e/
and the GTV250 diagram at:
http://www.wotmeworry.org.uk/manuals/Vespa/GTV250/

Ah! The confusion was on my side - I wasn't aware that there were two versions of the bike, carbureted and injected. Jmcwk's bike very well must be the i.e., as it has no engine disabled light and only 1300 miles on the clock.

The BVi.e. has essentially the same starter circuit as the GTS with which I'm familiar first-hand: pin 24 of the ECU is indeed the final ground path for the starter relay.

Your suggestions all ring true as usual.

I do cock it up sometimes - usually by not reading the OP properly.
Anyway, two heads better than one and all that.

Yes; quite. And a measure of cockiness does have its place!

So: We know that the starter relay is not pulling in. We know the brake lights work. We need to know if the code light was flashing an error code and/or staying on at the time the malfunction occurs. And very helpful to know if, when trying to start, there is voltage at the high side of the relay coil, and continuity to ground at the low side.

A very good summary.

Just trying to get us back to where we were before I threw in my red herring.

Jmcwk, the ball's in your court now, buddy!

Jmcwk, if you haven't got a multimeter, now's the time to get one.

Best money you will have spent in a while...