Modern Vespa

So thanks for the major info on the Vintage Education thread. Please continue to add to it, since I'm sure I'm not the only one who's had those questions.

Now a different line of questions regarding Vintage Vespa's...

I'm thinking it could be fun to become a man, and get my hands a little greasy in the garage (that's what 'real men' do, yes?) Since I'm a computer programmer, I'm missing the standard hand callouses that men should have (Hey, at least I have guitar fingers )

Anyway, so My new line of questions revolve around picking up a project bike for a newbie.

1) What vintage Vespa's are considered most desirable?
2) What vintage Vespa's are considered most rare?
3) For "pride of ownership" in the vintage community, what models are considered good "wow" bikes?
4) Which models are the most expensive projects? Cheapest?
5) Which models are the most difficult projects? Easiest?

And finally (this one is geared directly at MY personality)
6) Given all the above questions:
for someone who's a newbie to the whole project scene;
wants a bit of a challenge; is cheap, but willing to spend a little more if I can get what I want; wants to be proud of the end result; and wants the experience to be good enough to want to do it again... what's the best all around project bike?

I think 1-5 are good general questions for anyone, and 6, while geared exactly at me, is also helpful for most people. Also, note that I do realize that those questions don't have exactly black and white answers (e.g. #4 also depends on the quality of the project originally purchased, etc.) but use a general rule of thumb to get the best answers.

Thanks again for all the great info so far... you guys really make it easy and fun for someone new to the scene to get a quality experience and appreciation of the lifestyle.

SIDE NOTE: While for ease of answering I explicitly said Vespa's, I'm also more than willing to pick up a Lambretta alternative (I think they're just as beautiful). Perhaps, after answering for Vespa's specifically, it's worth repeating the list for Lambretta's specifically, and maybe even finalizing it all with a general "Here's your best bet on both sides"?

Thanks!!!!!

*bump* No one has any info on this stuff?
I'm sure the two usual suspects do, but they've got lives too, you know. You can't expect them to answer ALL the questions for ya.

I think the appropriate answer is - the most desirable vintage scooter is the one that you fall in love with.

Kind of like meeting the person you're going to marry - you'll know when it happens. It'll just feel right.

Andrea

I'll chime in with my more limited knowledge:
1) What vintage vespa's are considered most desireable?
GS150 and GS160s are very desirable. SS180s and Rallys are also rather desirable.
2) What vintage vespa's are considered most rare?
Again, the GS150/160s are rather rare. They came in different waves as well, with the earlier being rarer if I recall. I'm sure some of the earliest Vespa models are EXTREMELY hard to find as well.

4) Which models are the most expensive projects? Cheapest?
I believe in the case of the really rare ones, the project is also the most expensive, as it is hard as hell to find stock air filters, etc. Cheapest projects are generally the more common/popular models, like P-series, Sprints, etc.

5) Which models are the most difficult projects? Easiest?
A ditto I think. When you get models with weird electronic systems like the GS150 you might find the urge to bypass the battery along with regular maintenance/restoration. Another example might be where you would be interested in upgrading a 6V system to a 12V system. Easiest projects are likely those with more parts availability PLUS more appealing stock design (i.e. the electronic ignition on a P200E is something which you wouldn't be so interested in changing... little need to bypass the battery on the battery models).


6) I think many agree the best starter project is a P-series for reasons given above. The engines are sturdy, simple, and parts are readily available, as is the case for most of the body/perifery. If you want to steer more retro in design, sprints are supposed to be great bikes and you could still find one as a nice price and turn a profit on your resto. I personally think a rally 200 would make a reliable project which would have great value at the outcome, but you'd need to do more searching (i believe) for the parts. It would be a good balance between a "common" scoot and something like an old GS in terms of parts and eccentricities though, from what I've read.

Everything I have read suggests that a P200 (or any P series bike) is the best starter "vintage" bike. Why?

Because they can be easily obtained, and fairly cheaply.

Parts are readily available since the P series was made for so many years.

Tons of resources both online and in books on how to rip them apart and start at square one.

It was for these reasons that I bought my P. I bought mine with the same intent that you have. To get my hands dirty and learn at the same time.

I haven't done much though because I've been too busy riding out the last days of Iowa riding weather.

I'm a member of the Usual Suspects Scooter Club, although I don't think you were referring to me. Anyway, here is someone else's list of most expensive/desirable scooters:

http://www.bigpeoplescooters.com/opinion1.php

Actually, I agree with Andrea that it is your own attachment to the scooter that matters. My two vintage scooters are a P200 (good starter scoot) and and Li150, neither of which appears on that list, but I enjoy them both.

Brendan

As far as vespas go, i think the GS and SS are the most "droolworthy" vespas .... but goddamn, don't buy one if you want to do it on the cheap. These bikes are costing me an arm and a leg trying to get the original parts for.

Rally 180's' and Rally 200's also really do it for me .. original paint Rally 200's : mmmmmmmmmm love it.

There's sorta 2 types of desireable ...there's the 'museum' type, and there's the 'daily driver' type. I kinda put the GS150 into the 'museum' type category, and the GS160 into the 'daily driver' category, because i personally think the GS150 isn't all that spectacular to ride as a main ride, where the Gs160 still functions very well as a daily driver. The GS150 is one of those borderline scoots where it bridged two eras.. being the 'fastest of the slows'.

Droolworthy scooters suck - can't park them anywhere without worring about them.

My suggestions for the older P200 owners (I dont know if the new PX are the same as the older Ps):

1) Remove the spark plug cap when parking in public places (they normally screw off and on easily)*
2) Cable and lock it to something solid*
3) Remove the front wheel if parked in one place or in public for a long period of time. *
4) PX owner, buy a disk lock.
5) Buy a cheap none Vespa cover and use it when parked in public, out of sight out of mind. A vespa cover says "hey look its a Vespa".*

* also good ideas for older scoots.


Protect your scoot no matter what model.

Manny

The Vespa SS90 is also highly collectable due mainly to the low numbers made. I think they're cool looking with the dummy tank and spare tire in the center of the legshield.

The GS160 is still my favorite. It has the rounded cowls but is still modern enough to ride comfortably.

The VBB/VNBs are worth less mainly due to the hundreds of thousands of them produced. The 8" wheels make them fun to ride but they go about 45 mph.

Thanks for the responses...

I think, given all the info I have been able to find myself, on top of the stuff you guys listed here...

I think I'll start with a Rally 200 project. I think it's pretty sweet looking, and add to that their general reliability, ease of finding parts, and quality of rebuild information abounding... not to mention that they are apparently a really fun ride...

So yeah. I'm either gonna go for a Rally, or a Lambretta SX200 (I think they're sick looking )

Perhaps in the future I'll shoot at getting my hands on an SS90 (my bro-in-law has show me pictures, and also really wants one, so maybe we'll do it together)... but that's getting ahead of myself.

Haha... now don't set your sights too low!!

*Sigh* i wish I had an SX200. A buddy of mine in pittsburgh ( who gets paging alerts whenever anyone posts a lambretta advert on craigslist ) scored 1 TV200 and 2 SX200's off of craigslist in the last year for a combined price of around $4000 for all three.

lucky fuck.


The problem with SX200's is that the brits are buying them all up over here and shipping them back over there. With a 2-to-1 pound to dollar conversion rate, and the fact they go for an arm and a leg over there ( since EVERYONE wants a lambretta there, and the SX200 / TV200 is the top of the heap )....i'm watching a lot of them set sail. SS90's are a fluke to find... that's not a bike you run a chance of tripping over in a barn find like an SX200. ( they were unloading SX200's for ~$200 over here in 1967 due to slumping scooter sales ). SS90's never really were imported here that i'm aware of.

But Rally 200's can be had with relative ease and about $3500 in your hand... and this time of year you can end up with a pretty nice original condition one.

Agreed. The longer I have mine the less I worry about it. I used to not let it out of my sight. Never went inside someplace for more than 20 minutes and I have 2 chains. Now I only chain it up while I'm at school or it's home for the night.

I have insurance.

Insurance for a 90ss is not that easy to come by - they are going for close to $15k overseas last time I looked, and not even an ignition switch!

my two cents... as an old school vintage guy.

the Vespa GS has aways had a wide spread appeal... my personal favorite is the Rally 200... it has power and looks...
as far as Lambrettas... the Ld series are my hands down favorite for looks! but are a bitch to work on...

most Vintage riders have their own "dream bike" but ride something else... it's a great thing to ride your dream bike... so don't settle for anything but that dream bike.

there are allot of issues with owning/restoring/riding/parking/storing a vintage scooter... thats something to keep in mind.
i ride a '05 Bajaj as a daily rider. my '72 Rally 200 as my long distance rider. and my '66 Sears "blue badge"(with a malossi 166) for fun... and i try to have a fun ride everyday!!!

i think public opinion on your scooter(which ever one you choose) will be based more on how it looks and runs, no matter what year or make. a rare Vbb thats a piece of shit wont get as much approval as a nice looking and running 80-something P series...
and you will be shocked how easy the restoration is when you have the right scooter(you need to see and "want" the finished project) having the right tools and work space is the most important!!!

no real offense intended here, but:

for your first restoration you should probably not run out and try to pick up a bike that's coveted, costs 6-10k, etc.

Rally 200s and Lambretta SX200s were mentioned. These are often considered rare bikes (in particular the SX), and are diminishing commodities.

The biggest grievance I have with the approach here is that it doesn't seem like the OP is interested in those bikes because of their history, the way they ride, the way they feel, etc. The interest is that other people find them interesting, and that makes them a "good place to start" or whatever.

That strikes me as a shame. For an item that is not a diminishing commodity, like say an LX150, or a GTS, that makes complete sense to buy ostensibly based off of other people's opinions alone.

In an instance where there are literally no more Rally 200s or SX200s being made, ever, that means there's a limited pool of these bikes left for aficionados, legitimate collectors, or people who want to keep their stock bikes stock and running. Every day someone buys a bike for shits and giggles and either doesn't complete a restoration and leaves a bike in the corner, or just doesn't really care about it and runs it into the ground because they don't know better, that's one less of those bikes for people who truly love them for the qualities of the bike, rather than the fact that others love the bike.

If you learn to love one of the bikes and are having problems sourcing an undented NOS or slightly used cowl, or trying to find yourself a non-repro speedo or whatever, you'll see what I mean. Ultimately, when someone buys it because other people want it, it takes away from what you as a lover of those vehicles can do with it.

In that sense, I'd recommend a VBB or whatever. There are about a billion of those lying around and hardly anyone thinks they look ugly. There's no reason to hate on them, truly, provided they're not Vietnamese restos, they're just unremarkable.

Don't try to find a GS or a SS180 or an SX/TV200 just because other people want one. Find one because you love the bike. Otherwise, pretty much any reasonable vintage bike will suffice.

BTW, the same reasoning is exactly why I hate to see serious chop-downs and goofy pimp-your-ride style restos of the above bikes. Breaks my heart. Feels like another perfectly good bike that could have been treated well by a person who loved it was left to become a hunk of metal with far less value.

Just a suggestion. No malice intended, just seems that you're going for "the rare ones" for a reason I personally wouldn't.

I might also suggest a Primavera / ET3. Those can be cute bikes to really make screamers.

Yeah..i'd agree with this comment. I'd say go for a sprint or p-series if you're a taller or heavier dude, and a VNB / VBB if you're a shorter guy or chick. I feel like a goof on an 8" wheeled bike.

I'm like, 5'6" so my 90 fits me fine.

I just need to find the time to fix the seals in between "fretting" about how my GT has exploded.

+1 on the Primavera suggestion, albeit small frames can be kinda tricky to work on since all the components are jammed into such a wee space.

..."theOZ" brings up a great point. back in the late 80's/eraly90's there was this "cut down" craze with drop bars... tons of scooters were ruined forever! not the projects that got finished... but the ones people started, got in over their heads and never finished... on the other hand, over the years, i've found allot of scooters that people started to rebuild and stopped and put in the back of the garage/barn... then ten years later were found again!

if you never re-built or restored a vintage bike... a "collectible" might not be the best "first" project... try to find a friend who is doing a re-build and help out... find a "box job" and give it a try... make sure you have the skill, time, money and patience, before you start on your dream scooter...

the "rarer" the scooter the harder it is to find... and don't forget the cost! so i'm for one not worrying about an amateur bodging a classic...

Birdsnest,

I see why you would get that impression. It's not about the newness, though - it's the "why". It could be someone who's restored a million bikes: if you're buying something just because other people want it and not because you love it, and there are only X left in the world and there will never be more, than I just feel it a shame. It's not about "worthiness", and it's not really a value judgment.

Again, not trying to be offensive or be on the attack.

dovetailing from oscar's "diminishing commodity" mention...before this devolves into an argument: the question isn't so much "who deserves a vintage" as much as it is "what a vintage deserves". there are certainly varying degrees of the answer, model-by-model, but well nigh all classics are collectible, and none should find themselves scattered asunder in someone's closet or garage.

TheO.Z.

I hear you, and I get the fears that you harbor against newbies to the vintage arena.

While 3 of my questions do lean toward your perception of my interests in the bikes I chose, really the only one you should be concerned over is #3... and I personally don't think it's a poor question. It IS important to know what the general feeling of the community is regarding vintage models. Keep in mind, I don't care much about what others think of ME... but what they think of the bikes does play a role in the type of project I'll begin. What better way to judge the likelyhood of my feelings about the end result, than to pick the brains of the insiders? If I'm to enjoy my vintage bike (having not had the opportunity to ride one of that model myself previously) the best I have to go off of is the opinions of others who HAVE experienced the bikes.

As for choosing the Rally, I chose it partially for that exact reason... everyone I've talked to, or written to, who owns one, or HAS owned one, loves it. The other reasons are the ones I already mentioned... availability of parts, availability of information, and reliability (I'm a programmer, not a mechanic so I need something a little less fragile). Additionally, I want something that's "fast".

I currently own a 2008 LX150 (had it since April) and I ride it almost everyday to work. I love it. My brother in law only owns vintage (and is the reason I got into Vespas in the first place). However, all his rides are 2 stroke small frames (and one Lambretta, which is actually my favorite of his, but is currently not running reliably). Anyway, I like the idea of restoring one myself, but a small frame is just silly (I'm a very tall person). Therefore, I can't even use my brother-in-law for information as to the bikes quality... I mean he KNOWS of them, and about them... but not from personal restore experience. And he's pretty adamant that 2 stroke engines are far different, and thus he can't tell me too much.

So yeah, I chose a Rally because it fits all my criteria. Fast, reliable, part availability, information availability, and yes... people like them as their ride, which means I likely will too.

As for the SX200... I just think its a sweet looking bike. Have a ridden one? Nope. But it sure looks sweet... and I figured since they imported so many, I'd have an easier time with it than some other models I was looking for. I do realize they're shipping so many overseas, but I thought I'd still have a good shot at one if I watched for it.

And the SS90? Well, I KNOW that one is rare. But that one I don't really want for me, i want it for my brother-in-law. It's one of his dream bikes, and I think it would be a fun project to do with him. Am I likely to find one? I don't think so, but it doesn't mean I won't look.

We all start somewhere. I don't believe in any arbitrary rules of, "You're new, so you gotta pay your dues". I'm the type of guy who will refuse to buy an item I want (even if its a good deal) until I can get EXACTLY what I want. Why? because in the end, even if I pay more, I'll be far happier with my decision and I'll be proud of the end result.

Completely agree - in my case I knew after riding my TNG with fellow scooterists that I wanted to add a manual to my stable. I researched here, several books on Vespa history, Scooter Lounge and decided that what I wanted was 1) full frame bike (I'm on tall side) 2) speed - like to move when I'm on the expressway 3) the more classic 60's styling - not as bulbous as the 50's or squared as the p's. Wanted a ride that was both rideable, but also showy. I ended up with a wish list that started with the SS180, then Rally 180 and finally the Rally 200.

Started to look and found out that my dream bike was the same as many others - oops. Ended up finding one, fully restored, that I paid too much for, but that's with no regrets because it's the bike I wanted. I will love it, baby it, will take it to an experienced mechanic (luckily right down the street from me) and worry like hell every time I park it in public, etc.

If a time comes that I don't want it or can't continue to enjoy it, my intention is to get back out to the community in as good a shape as it is in now. Like a pet - I don't really own it, am just caring for it.

No, you don't. Because you're kind of making them up here. I'm by no means a vintage snob, I have no interest in keeping anyone out of the "vintage arena", and I'm a huge proponent of people from the "modern" scene entering the "vintage" arena. I started riding on a modern vespa and have slowly transitioned, as my mechanical skills have evolved and bettered, into a broader swath of 2-wheelers. This includes vintage vespas, which I have an affinity for from an aesthetic and historical sense.

My other bikes speak this story: I've had my GT200, I've had an Aprilia Atlantic 500, a Honda Elite 250, a Honda 599, an MP3 500 and my little small frame Vespa 90. Absolutely. If you need a starting point, there's no better way than to ask. There are two different questions though, that I see:
1) what's the most valuable bike I can possibly buy
2) what's the best bike for someone who's never owned a bike that's vastly different from any current modern offering to jump in to.

The answers there are pretty much entirely mutually exclusive. Rallies are great bikes, yes. They're fast, quick, reliable, much of it is interchangable with a P... over all solid. I suggest riding one, though, before you simply go for "fast" as a bike. A Rally at 65 feels different than a GT/GTS/LX/any modern bike at 65. You may change your mind about "fast" the second you find out how "useful" that front brake is. I'm glad you ride your bike every day. That's a good thing to hear - these bikes are meant to be daily commuters that people beat the crap out of. An LX150 is a perfect choice for that. Prior to beating the living crap out of my GT on Cannonball, I rode that thing every damned day, rain or shine, and never regretted a second of it. From my perspective now, my big goal is to get that GT running again. I applaud your constant use of the bike, and contend that among all of the benefits of a modern, that's one of them.

A Rally might be a different beast than you're expecting, though. Yes, they're reliable, for a vintage. And provided you have the mechanical skill, can be very reliable over time. At the same time, you mention above you're a programmer, and not a mechanic. That'll be a hurdle to get over - you'll have to learn the delicate art of potentially changing a popped tire on the side of the road, or a clutch or throttle cable, or any host of other things.

Reliability between vintage and modern bikes mean greatly different things. Be aware of that. uhh, why do you think so many SX's were imported? As I recall, the total # produced ever was some 10K, which is far less than the # of Rally 200s. A crappy or mediocre condition SX will often go for $5-7k, a good condition for $10k, for that very reason. I totally agree - we all start somewhere. But what you don't get here is I'm not saying "You gotta pay your dues". No one has ever said that, so that's clearly a hang-up you're bringing to the table on your own.

Let me phrase it this way: it's the equivalent of buying a GSX-R as your first bike because everyone says they're great. GSX-Rs are great bikes, yes, but they're also litre bikes that will kill the living shit out of someone who doesn't yet even know the nuances of shifting on a motorcycle. Thats' why often I'd recommend a middleweight - an FZ-6 or maybe even a Honda Hawk if you can find one. You gotta start somewhere, but if you don't know what it is exactly that you're getting yourself into, you probably should take a baby step in. Vintages are the same way, especially if you're looking for something "fast". You might find yourself learning very quickly on the freeway that a vintage bike's brakes work very differently than you expect after running an LX for a while, day in and day out.

In that case, I'd say a P is a great first step, or a Stella. They're tanks. They're reliable as can be. With that first step, you can then decide if either restoring or riding a vintage bike is really what you want to do. If it is, then you sell the P and buy your next bike with the comfort of knowing what you're going to get into. This is the exact same advice I'd give someone buying a sports bike for the first time: sit down on a Ninja 500 first, and figure out if it's what you want before you jump on the GSX-R and decide that's the bike for you.

Does that have anything to do with "paying dues"? No. That simply has something to do with making the right vehicle choice for what you want. Sometimes that isn't necessarily the prettiest, rarest, and coolest thing out there. If you're not sure how to fix a bike, don't know how to do it, aren't even sure you could do it (as you've mentioned, you're a programmer, and not a mechanic), why start out on something of possible incredible value you could munge up?

I say all of this as someone who's been down that exact path as yourself, and not too long ago. My small frame, while a pain in the ass to work on because it's engine is not easily accessible, is still an amazing learning process. It looks purdy, it's fun to ride around on, and ultimately, it's not too far out of my league, mechanically speaking. It's lead me to understand engines better, and gotten me to branch out to doing repairs on other bikes, and has made me less afraid of touching engines. I, too, am a technologist and not a mechanic, but I took the opportunity to learn on something that's not particularly valuable or not particularly rare first so that at one point, when I do want to "trade up", I don't munge something that would have otherwise been meaningful. I know they're rare, and I know they're beautiful, and I don't want to trash an engine because I didn't seat the seals correctly, or total the frame because I didn't quite have an understanding of what it meant to stop the bike.

You can call that whatever you want. If you want to think of it as "paying dues", feel free - but it's probably better thought of approaching a problem with the appropriate scale of solution.

Since you're a technologist, I'll phrase it this way:
it's very possible to have a one-off business problem that gets solved with 7 lines of perl vs 300 lines of java. If you know it can be solved simply and elegantly in one way, why go the other route knowing full well that you are probably using a tool that's overkill for the job?

You're pretty close ...~20k SX200's made ... around 15k TV200's made ... but your point is still well made.

http://www.lcgb.co.uk/scooters/sx-facts.html

Whereas my lammy - 9340 made and I like to remind my boy of that when he gets a little uppity. Bwahahahaha.

Andrea

a corollary to my previous response: the right to buy a vintage scoot isn't a question of personal worthiness. it's a question of how much cash you have.

having said that (and this goes for everyone), if you find yourself in over your head with a project, please do the responsible thing, put the bike back out to market before pieces invariably go missing, and consider it a learning experience. don't let ego or pride override your conscience. a bike sitting in pieces doesn't do anybody any good. don't wait around to be magically infused with the mechanical acumen necessary to complete the job. it won't happen.

I guess there's only 1811 square tail GS160 mk1's like i have ... but that statistic bores all but the most die-hard scooter nerds.

The TV200 or SX200, at 10x the production rate are still much more boner-inducing.

wow i guess i lose on the rare score: 113,853 of the '57 Lambretta Ld 150cc models made... and i got two of them!

I'm so glad I don't have to worry about that aspect

Once again, I do hear you... and while I appreciate the concern over my safety, pocket book, and motivations for choosing the models I did given that I'm new to the vintage arena; rest assured:

1) I'm plenty capable on a vintage vespa (I said I've never ridden a Rally, not never ridden a vintage Vespa) and don't ride on the freeway anyway (a deathwish in the OC on anything that can't hit 70 easily IMO)... I want "fast" for my own reasons.

2) I'm financially stable, and willing to pay for any mistakes I make... though I'm not likely to make an extravagant amount of them, given I'm a fairly slow to act/quick to learn individual.

3) While I don't care much about the history of why some models were shipped where, or the types of individuals that typically bought them half a century ago (to a certain degree I do care why some models are rare or more valuable, but I digress), nor do I belong to the MOD scene or ANY scene for that matter... My reasons for choosing a model are my own, and are not just because everyone finds them "rare". (Admittedly, when I made the decision, I didn't even know Rally's WERE rare... everywhere I've read seemed to indicate that they were readily available, just no longer in production.)

I'll let it lie... I've listed the reasons I'm shooting for a Rally or SX200, and I think they're good ones. I understand you weren't/aren't trying to start an argument, and the only reason I've continued to write all this junk is to relieve you of your fears that I might be making the decision because I want to look good, and therefore might be taking out of the market some valuable resources best left to the aficionados who will truly appreciate them. You don't know me, nor how I come to make decisions, so I could easily see why you'd get the wrong impression, given some of the questions I asked... I don't know that I can make you feel any better about it, but I figured it was worth a try.

Ho ho ho:
Rally 200 for a nice price ~
http://scoot.net/classifieds/


Also, Eric, I sent you a PM

Nice find..... worth taking a look at! 2hr's from me with no truck