Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:27 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:27 am linkquote
Ok this weekend I found a problem on my scooter with the globes I did try search for somthing similar but was unable to find,

as per one of my other threads I got the Vespa VNA with a PX/Malossi conversion when the auto electrician looked at it originally he wired it like a sprint which looks cool and work out very well with my switches etc... the only problem now is with all the extra vooma I think the stator plate is producing more Voltage then a normal PX so inturn I blew all my globes on the weekend has nay one ever just fitted resistors to the power cables to maintain a 12V power or is there something more involved I would need to do here

PS I know the best would be to send the scooter back to the Auto Electrician but he has already broken too many things on the bike.

Some ideas and input please
Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:47 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:47 am linkquote
Do you have a battery?

I'm guessing you don't, in which case you should make sure your 12V regulator is working.
Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:10 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:10 am linkquote
Regulator
No Battery and no Regulator I did go buy a regulator for the PX but with further inspection of the wiring, I realised it has been changed to suit a sprint switches and I have no idea on which cables to connect to the PX regulator

G
Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:40 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:40 am linkquote
P-engines ALL wire up with either a regulator or a rectifier / regulator... Sprint engines are typically load balanced ( meaning they DON'T run with one, and instead rely on the balancing of wattages / voltages of bulbs in series and parallel connections to make it so they all get the right amount and don't pop.... but it's also a balancing act where if one goes they all start going )

So... you can't really take a p-series engine, install it on a load-balanced setup, and expect it to start working. You need to get a 12volt inline regulator in there or you will be popping bulbs forever.
Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:26 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:26 am linkquote
Rover Eric wrote:
So... you can't really take a p-series engine, install it on a load-balanced setup, and expect it to start working. You need to get a 12volt inline regulator in there or you will be popping bulbs forever.
Ok sounds very much like you know exactly what my problem is. I was also thinking about something like an inline regulator / rectifier, but am I going to be able to purchase something like this off the shelf or would I have to put a bit of imagination with innovation to make something up my self. ad when I do eventually get the regulator / rectifier side of it sorted out which of my cables do I connect it to

Coming out the engine there are 5 cables would I fit a regulator to each cable or is there a specific cable to put this in line regulator onto.
Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:38 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:38 am linkquote
themod1 wrote:
Coming out the engine there are 5 cables would I fit a regulator to each cable or is there a specific cable to put this in line regulator onto.
Tell me what the colors off the stator are.

I'd guess you have ( Red / White / Green ) going to the CDI... and then most Euro stators have black for ground and some other color ( usually blue ) to be the single power output to run all the electrics on the bike.

You take the blue wire, run it into a 12volt regulator, and run the output to all your lights. Any juice over 12v gets shunted to ground.

-Eric
Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:00 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:00 am linkquote
Cables
The cables I have are as follows there is a Yellow, blue, red, white/grey, Green and Black and it has been wired exactly the same as the following link http://www.scooterhelp.com/electrics/wiring/VBC1_VLB1_VNL2_VNC1.pdf I hope this will help more for the explanation,

You also mentioned that 3 cables will feed the CDI (???) What is a CDI and if I dont know what it is I dont think I have one, hehehe yes a very laymans way of looking at it

G
Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:37 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:37 am linkquote
ah... you're giving me the wiring colors on your harness....

...but what are the colors of wires coming off your engine ( Stator ) ?
Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:07 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:07 am linkquote
Engine Wires
I Eric I took This pic of the wiring loom and wires coming out of the Engine I hope this helps more from what I can see is a, Red, green. yellow, blue black.



Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:44 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:44 am linkquote
Wow... so, it WOULD appear he's running a sprint-type load balanced setup in this bike. Man, that's odd. I've never seen anyone do that in a p-series before.

Well... what voltage is your engine putting out? 6 volt or 12 volt?

and then, ...make sure all your bulbs are the right voltage and wattage in your scooter, or you will pop them.

Do you have a multimeter? (voltmeter, ohmmeter, etc?)
Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:05 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:05 am linkquote
Voltage output
Ok I have a Voltmeter, Do I take a reading off each line out the engine and use the black as the earth, does the stator create a AC or DC voltage I would assume AC, and then should all the lines give a voltate of 12V each.

with the engine been modded with the malossi kit would this not create higher RPM and would this not inturn create a higher Voltage off the stator plate.

With regards to the wattage of the set up must I follow the suggested as per the line diagram attached for a sprint, I am currently using a bunch of globes with most of the globes being of a higher wattage then suggested would this also cause them to pop
Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:15 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:15 am linkquote
Rover Eric wrote:
Wow... so, it WOULD appear he's running a sprint-type load balanced setup in this bike. Man, that's odd. I've never seen anyone do that in a p-series before.
this guy is the only guy in the whole of Johannesburg an area of about 150miles x 150miles who is an auto electrician for motorbikes only. It took him 3 months too do the job and when I got the bike back he had broken the handle bars and scratched the paint off on must be 10% of the bike, he also invoiced me for a new wire harness and voltage regulator and when I went to see him about this he told me the handlebars were broken when I delivered the bike to him and the pait he would respray it for me himself, and he said the regulator was now situated under the fuel tank in the body which I have since realised is not there at all.

So as a big warning to anyone from Johannesburg South Africa if you know of a different Bike electrician in the area dont go to DARK ELEC mavern please learn form my mistakes

If I am not allowed to diss a company like this I am sorry and will edit this post but I have a huge problem with the company
Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:17 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:17 am linkquote
Well... i'm curious first off if you're running 6 V or 12V coils.

So take one of those wires off the engine ( blue will work fine ) ...disconnect it from the wire running to the bike, set your multimeter on Volts AC, touch the red lead to the blue wire coming off your stator and touch the black lead to your engine cases.

( well, start your engine, first to make it easy on yourself )

read the output. If it's under 8 volt, it's probably still a 6 volt system. Similarly, if it's 10-14volt, it's probably a 12v system.

Once we get that sorted, we gotta make sure we get the right wattage in each bulb spot... including the pilot light, speedo light, brake and taillights, headlight, high beam indicator, etc. ALL of them need to be working to balance out the system so that the other ones don't pop.

-Eric
Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:38 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:38 am linkquote
Checking the Voltage
Thanks for the detailed description on how to do this my Multimeter is at the office so I am going to have to do it tomorrow night I will confirm it all with you as soon as I have done it

Thanks Eric BTW what do you do you seem very clued up on most aspects of the scooter

thanks a lot
Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:47 am

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Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:47 am linkquote
Re: Checking the Voltage
themod1 wrote:
Thanks Eric BTW what do you do you seem very clued up on most aspects of the scooter
I'm the senior security / network engineer for one of the US's biggest advertising companies.

-Eric
Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:08 am

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Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:08 am linkquote
Voltage output
Hey Eric Just got home from Work and have done what you explained disconnected the blue line while the engine is running touched the black lead to the engine body and the red lead to the Blue cable,

Out come (I didnt even think this was possible)

at low rev (idle) 5.2V
at full open thottle 17.9V

its not surprising the globes are popping whats my next option

G
Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:29 am

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Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:29 am linkquote
haha... wow. Well, yeah, that's your problem.

If i were you, i'd probably swap out all my bulbs with 12volt equivelents around the bike ... 12volt 10 watt brakelight, 12v 5 watt taillight, 35/35 x 12v headlight, and so forth ( speedo, pilot light, high beam indicator if you have one, etc )

and see if they continue to blow out. ( i'd watch your brakelight, as it's probably going to be the one that pops first. )

If so, i'd put a 12volt regulator inline, tie all your circuits together, and alter your brakeswitch.. ( more about that when we get to it ).

-Eric
Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:46 pm

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Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:46 pm linkquote
Globe Power useage
Ok Just got in from Ice Hockey Practice yes I did say Ice Hockey In South Africa, and checked the globes I am currently using all around are 12V already the Wattage on each is as follows:

Headlight: 35/35 W
Pilot: 3W
Tail light (festoon Type not that is makes a difference): 15W
Brake Light: 10W


the speedo is a bit difficult (speedo too close to body of headset so with globe in place speedo sits very high out of the head set) to fit a globe so I have left it bare would it be best to try get on in

It is a VNA so these are all the lights I have connected to the switches. Even though it is kitted like a mod scoot with extra lights on the front rack they just asthetic at this point

G
Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:15 am

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Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:15 am linkquote
Some suggestion
Rover Eric wrote:
If so, i'd put a 12volt regulator inline, tie all your circuits together, and alter your brakeswitch.. ( more about that when we get to it ).

-Eric
I have been given two suggestions locally would either of these work.

1. I Have been suggested to fit a resistor to each line

2. I have also been told that if the magnets are slightly corroded on the ends this could cause a change in voltage both up and down is this possible, (suggested that with corrotion the gap between magnets this would make a difference in voltage

What do you guys think are these guys blowing smoke in face or could these both be viable things


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Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:21 am

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Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:21 am linkquote
I don't like either of those suggestions.


AFAIK, you're running the wrong voltages anyways.

the 12v 35/35 headlight is ok. Some of the older bikes used 25/25's, but you should be alright.

The taillight should be 5 watt

the brakelight should be 10 watt

pilot lights are typically 5 watt

most speedo bulbs i've seen are ~.5 watt



I dunno, man. Which bulbs did you say are the ones that burnout most readily?
Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:33 am

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Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:33 am linkquote
Most frequent
First the Brake light then the tail light and if I am not mistaken when the brake light goes the circuit is broken and the pilot also doesnt work.


So what now
Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:58 am

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Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:58 am linkquote
If your WOT voltage is 17.9, then you are not getting regulation. A regulator would limit the voltage to no more than perhaps 13.5 - 14V.

Resistors are not the answer. Either replace/install the voltage regulator or make one with 12 V zener diodes.


Al
Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:11 pm

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Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:11 pm linkquote
He's not running a regulator.

He's basically running a 12v version of the sprint / vbb style setup.... load balanced, 3 seperate circuits...

and throwing off a TON of juice.
Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:53 pm

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Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:53 pm linkquote
Still popping
Well if i understand Erics last post the zener diode wont work will it, would I be able to change it to the PX stlye stator plate run that through a rectifier and then split the feed to supply the sprint style light switch or would this be the last option for this problem
Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:05 am

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Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:05 am linkquote
Re: Still popping
themod1 wrote:
Well if i understand Erics last post the zener diode wont work will it, would I be able to change it to the PX stlye stator plate run that through a rectifier and then split the feed to supply the sprint style light switch or would this be the last option for this problem
Eric, correct me if I'm wrong.

A 12 V Zener will clip the voltage any time it rises above roughly 12 V. It would have to be in the circuit supplying the lamps that are blowing. I cannot think of any reason why this rudimantary regulation wouldn't work, but I am simply speaking in terms of very general theory.

Otherwise, you would have to reconfigure and rewire the scoot to accommodate a "stock" type regulated electrical system.

Al
Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:25 am

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Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:25 am linkquote
1st - you want a REGULATOR, not a RECTIFIER ...as a rectifier has full / half wave rectification going on ( zener diodes arranged so as to change an AC voltage to DC )

A regulator is just shunting excess voltage over its rated amount to ground. This is what you want - it has 3 poles ... in, out, and ground.

But you've got 3 different circuits.

I dunno ...someone went crazy wiring up your stator, i think...possibly putting the wrong coils on it or something. I'm really surprised to see 18 volts coming out of each line on the stator. Relying on a non-regulated aka load-balanced setup seems like you're going to keep having the bulb-blowing incidents you're having now.
Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:30 am

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Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:30 am linkquote
AAAAAARRRRRRRHHHHHH
Thats Pirate talk for Damn,

ok so whats next do I try find a stator plate for the PX style but how would I go about then connecting to the light switch etc...

Gerard
Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:49 am

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Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:49 am linkquote
If it were me, i'd drop the money and buy an electronic ignition kit which will have a single wire power output, then run a wiring harness similar to scooterworks EIK conversion harness.

I just pulled one in my buddy's sprint V ( a weirdo '71 battery model ) and it's really straightened out his electrical issues.
Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:11 am

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Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:11 am linkquote
http://www.scooterworks.com/Harness_Kit_Wiring_Conversion_P3721.cfm

http://www.scooterworks.com/Electronic_Ignition_Kit_60s-7_P2026.cfm

If I am not mistaken these are the 2 items you are talking about am I correct but for the electronic ignition could I not just use a new Bajaj Electronic Ignition as it is a PX engine I am working with is this right

I can get a bajaj ignition locally but I would have to import the Harness plus switches etc... so can I do that or would you rather put the two items linked above
Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:27 am

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Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:27 am linkquote
that's the harness i'm talking about specifically, yes.

But the ignition kit you need is for a Pseries - specifically for the P125 / P150 cases that didn't have electronic ignition for a while.

Will the bajaj kit work? i dunno. Show me a link and i'll tell you.
Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:27 am

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Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:27 am linkquote
I have been given one more suggestion
I have been given one more suggestion with out having to spent more money on this bike (tuff luck for me but great for you guys our South African Economy is Shit) so this item may seem fairly cheap to you guys but unfortunatly not for me,

Back to the idea I will take the fly wheel off and check if the cables connected to the coils are like this apparently the electrician here in JHB has in the past just taken a lead from each coil of a PX to make it look like a Sprint I will update this once I have more information from my side

Thanks G
⬆️    About 28 days elapsed between posts    ⬇️
Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:23 am

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Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:23 am linkquote
Got further Suggestions for the burning globes
I Have added a pic to assist in my explanation,

I have been riding this scooter quite a lot since I last posted anything I have been riding with out Tail lights, brake lights and Pilot (I know not the most inteligent thing to do but I had to ride) and till now I have not yet burnt out the Headlight. due to this I was told to remove the blue cable from the coil (I have marked it with a blue square), and reconnect it to the other side of the Yellow cables coil (marked with a Green square) so I would end up with the yellow on the left of the coil and the blue on the right.

Do you think this is the option should I try it and see what happens perhaps.

Gerard



Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:58 am

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Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:58 am linkquote
no idea, man. Stator rewiring / reconfiguring is out of my realm of knowledge.
Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:09 am

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Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:09 am linkquote
I am going to try it
Ok I am going to attempt it this far nothing else has worked so maybe this will be ok. I am going to attempt it if it works great and if not I never lost anything. Eiher way I will post an answer to the situation.
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