Modern Vespa

This isn't a rant, or a lecture, or a missive from on high. Instead, I'd like to open up a rational discussion about the nature of moderation, what it means to Modern Vespa, and delve into the finer points of our standing prohibition of personal attacks.

This post is, to some degree, a reaction to the grief that we (me and the moderators) seem to be taking from all sides. A lot of the grief is emanating from the ScooterBBS crowd, but there have always been members here who dislike even the slightest whiff of "censorship".

But let's set the stage properly: Modern Vespa is, and has always been, a moderated forum. Those of you old enough to remember usenet will remember the difference between a moderated and an unmoderated newsgroup. While the analogy isn't perfect, Modern Vespa is a moderated forum, like rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated. It isn't a free-for-all where anything goes, like alt.fan.wesley.crusher.die.die.die. We have a set of posting guidelines, and we expect (hope) that people will abide by them. When they don't, the moderators step in and take action. It's a pretty simple formula, and although it takes a staff of volunteers and constant maintenance, it is what it was always conceived to be: a clean, well-lighted place for scooter discussion. The price of that cleanliness is that absolute freedom of speech doesn't exist here. It doesn't exist anywhere else, either, but that's a different topic.

ScooterBBS, as it turns out, is also a moderated forum. Absolute freedom of speech doesn't exist there, either. SE has a couple of standing rules: no porn, and no homophobic, racist, or hate speech. Thus, while the rules at ScooterBBS are simpler and more straightforward than they are here, the two forums essentially share the same format. They're looser, we're stricter.

The rules at Modern Vespa, in fact, were crafted specifically as a counterpoint to ScooterBBS. I thought I could create a better atmosphere than what existed at ScooterBBS, and most (I think) would agree that we're more welcoming of new users, and less likely to scream at someone for not doing a search first. We're also much higher trafficked with far more members and an immense amount of posts, so I think that on the whole we've been pretty successful.

One specific rule that I arrived at early on was the prohibition against personal attacks. I struggled at first trying to explain the difference between argument and debate, not really being able to put it down in rule form. A chance meeting of an old acquaintance at a party solidified it for me, though: he ran a forum too, and I explained my dilemma. He immediately said "Oh, the difference between debate and argument is personal attack" as if everyone knew that.

He was right, though. I was trying to avoid ending up with an atmosphere poisoned by hate and long-standing grudges while fostering the ability for the participants to debate subjects where a difference of opinion existed. Simply prohibiting personal attacks was the solution, as this one rule gave us the ability to define what kind of an environment we wanted here in terms that were clear-cut and easy to understand. You can say "I disagree with your point, because of x, y, and z" but you can't say "You're an idiot for thinking that a leads to b and c".

Lately, though, I have been increasingly taken to task for "over-moderation". The idea that we would remove a post from Modern Vespa, for any reason, seems to some to be tantamount to treason. Never mind the fact that we've always been a moderated forum, we've always made it clear that personal attacks aren't allowed, and we've tried to be as consistent as possible in enforcing that rule. To tell you the truth, though, I'm feeling pretty beaten-down by the constant criticism. I certainly didn't create Modern Vespa to play God, or Hitler, or even Napolean. I created Modern Vespa in the hopes that we, as a community, could help each other and build up a body of knowledge that was well understood by a large number of people. That's all I was after. Not money, not power, not fame.

So I'd like to hear from you, the Modern Vespa audience community, your thoughts on the moderation here and specifically our prohibition against personal attack. This is not a pep rally, though: I'm not fishing for support or even necessarily agreement. I'm interested in hearing your unvarnished thoughts specifically about whether you value a general prohibition against personal attack. Secondarily, I'd like to hear whether you think Modern Vespa is over-moderated, under-moderated, or just right.

Bonus points for cogent arguments, for or against.

I think Modern Vepsa is well moderated. I have no problem with the "no personal attacks" rule. I think it's a very simple and fair rule. Allowing personal attacks generally leads nowhere good so it's best to disallow from the beginning.

I moderate the New York Scooter Club forum so I know how it goes (to an extent - much smaller board). In order to maintain a friendly and welcoming atmosphere where folks can share knowledge, experiences, questions, etc there need to be some ground rules and moderators to watch over those rules.

I am greatly appreciative for the pleasant experience of Modern Vespa, I have learned a lot. It is also a bit of a metric I use when moderating the board I do. Everyone might not agree, but folks are free to go elsewhere. The rules, as simple or complex as they may seem, help to keep the board alive and thriving.

my .02

we have a simple rule for the kids at our house that works really well for my wife and i:

we pay for everything, so we get to make the rules. if you don't like it, you can go live at the neighbors house. or, you can go build your own house, and then you can make the rules.

the kids are still at home.

this place isn't over moderated at all. it's that a few people tend to be very vocal.

i have a big mouth, and believe me, i post way differently here than i do at stella speed or the bbs. house rules.

Under moderated, hold fast to the vision. I've gotten everything I deserved. I'm and old usenet user that had a hard time growing up. Great vision, difficult application.....namaste

Jasho
Louisq
lvhippy

I think ScooterBBS is a viable option for people who need to sling mud, or have a need to belittle others. Thats cool some people need alot of drama or confrontation or attention. But I never felt this sites popularity hinged on whether you can post hot current event topics.

I like how MV is not a pulpit for this political view, or this social view is f#$#@ stupid, etc.

Sometimes posts make me laugh Caribou and Italian, in particular; and to take away that individuality would seem tragic.

But you are not Atlas, so have fun with it.

+1 Chad and thank you to Jess and the other moderators here for creating an informative arena for discussion and technical info.
IMO, if people don't like the way this forum is run, they are welcome to go elsewhere.

I hope I never have to try to please as many people as are on this board. I don't think this board is over moderated. I do think there will always be chronic complainers. R

A website without tight moderation is analogous to a scooter with no brakes. It's o.k. until it starts going down a hill and picking up speed: And then it's totally out of control. I've been on enough motorcycle forums that were not well controlled and the fighting, name calling and piss-fests got old real quick. I'm a big proponent for tight moderation. If someone wants to fight, let them go down to the nearest redneck bar and insult the regulars.
If someone doesn't care for the rules that are set down for any forum, they can always move along to another that has less rules or start their own site. This site is NOT over-moderated and is full of good information. Leave it like it is and let the pissers and moaners move along to greener pastures.
YMMV

Jess you really suck at being a "Petty Tyrant" - people insult you, your forum, and argue with the rules and even appearance, and you come back with an offer for civilized DISCUSSION!?

Oops that was a personal attack...

Ok seriously though, I try to think if I were a forum admin, how would my world be? I'd come up with a set of rules based on my goals (in this case, a forum where modern vespa riders can discuss their world safe from being ridiculed for riding a modern vespa and safe from being ridiculed for their questions or opinions).

Ok, good. Possibly a lofty goal. So what rules would work best? Well, discussion of politics and religion always ruin a family holiday get-together, so maybe that would be a good place to make some rules. What if nobody has brought up politics or religion, but instead some person decided that the other myriad of ideas being shared also really "grind their gears" and they decide to attack those ideas? Well, disagreement would be fine for me on MY forum. And I don't think they need prepare an essay to support their reasons behind disagreeing. But I think it would NOT be cool if they chose to express their disagreement as a personal attack. That, rather than serving to pose a countering opinion/position, seeks to DEMEAN the incumbent opinion. There IS a difference, so I think on my site I'd try to make sure that people limit their disagreement to... well, disagreement (even if heated).

Ok so I've settled on some rules which I think will make my private forum best meet my goals for the forum. Now, I have a place of residence, possibly a JOB, and dammit I want to ride my scooter too. So how can I see that those rules are enforced when I'm at the store or just riding? I'd better get some other folks who really know my rules well, are (more or less ) upstanding individuals, and willing to spend some extra time on my forum (if that is even possible) to help.

These people will have to make judgments on when someone is discussing the merits of religion, a political affiliation, or drop-kicking someone for "being such a f*ing moron" and then step in.

--------------------------

If you take a minute to think this through, I believe most will agree they'd do it (or try) the way Jess has.

When does moderation become too much? When is it stifling free speech? Well I think moderation guided by clearly written rules is hard to argue with. If you laid out rules you think are fair, and someone "agrees" to them and signs up, then when they break the rules it needs to stop. It doesn't make the rule-breaker a bad person. And it doesn't have to mean everyone thinks they are a douche. It just means they forgot/didn't care/whatever, and the rules are there for a reason. Ok, so the rule breach is over, the forum goes on, and the rebel is free to express their views again while more closely heeding the guidelines. I'm fine with that. And I hope that if/when I accidentally step over the line, everyone will forgive me when my thread is locked. I'll learn, newbies will learn, and we can post again.

We have clear guidelines, so I don't think enforcing them can fairly be called "over-moderation." If I post saying "I think the GT is sexier than the LX" and that thread is closed based on MY post, THAT is overmoderation. Why? Because I didn't break any rules. If it is closed because the next post says "you suck you f*ing idiot the GT is only for stupid [people of X political affiliation]" then it's a shame the thread spiraled into being locked but hey, it wasn't my fault. Moving on with our day.

I think MV is a well and fairly run forum. Jess and the Mods try their best. And I think their best IS good enough

From my point of view, 99% of the pissing and moaning on the board seems to be related to scooter clubs, and results in locked and deleted threads.

I think if people are allowed to discuss their club with pride, then they should be able to shrug off any general discussion good or bad about the aforementioned club.

But here, any mention of swords, patches, and fake scooter clubs leads to 25 minutes of high traffic thread activity, and then POOF, its all gone.

Ultimately I think everything is kosher, except threads should be readable when locked, and never deleted.

that's my only complaint.

Deleting certain posts from a thread and leaving others ... I don't get it. I can maybe see the point of locking a thread from time to time. They might not ever end otherwise. But picking and choosing which posts to delete out of a thread? I'm surprised at some that get deleted, and even more surpised at some that get left behind.

This might better be served as a separate conversation, but I'd like to ask you to expound on part of this. Why is it so important that everyone get to read locked threads? I mean, from my perspective, we're generally trying to abate hostility, and a locked (and readable) thread has a tendency to piss off the people the hostility was directed at (and then some) while preventing them from responding. So they start another thread, which then gets locked, and then more people get angry. In other words, our experience here is that leaving a thread locked and visible just creates more hostility.

I can see why people would want to read it, in the same way that you can't look away from a gory car crash as you pass by on the freeway. But honestly, in the long run, in the interest of reducing the anger level, isn't it better if we just remove the thread from public view?

The scooterBBS crowd is a little more brutal in their discussions than this board. I think they have their own forum to be that way, and MV has a kinder gentler forum for the rest of us. I think that Jess is doing a fine job, we should all be civilized on a forum and anyone who doesn't like it can go start their own forum and &*#!& IT!

Mostly the moderation is about right. I do miss some friends who have been banned or quit, but I don't think they were treated unfairly.

In politics whoever controls the topic of discussion wins. And look, now we have the other guys talking about MV. That makes MV the winner of hearts and minds; it's objective evidence of the success of MV. Adding a vintage forum was a great move. Moving the scooter tag was too. Keep heading in the same direction.

Now for a personal attack just so you don't think my nose is too brown: Jess, I love your state color map but how bout if you paint in yellow the states that got peed on

And red for the states that you bled in

And orange if you did both

i like to read them to see what it was that caused it to get locked. that way, i can avoid saying or doing whatever it was. sometimes things are not so obvious to me.

Generally, we're trying to salvage an otherwise useful thread. Often there's a long thread with a few posts that have crossed the line, and we'd rather keep the thread than lock the whole thing. We also usually have to remove posts that respond (and quote) the posts we've removed.

On top of that, none of us (myself and the moderators) are perfect. We're making judgement calls on-the-fly, in the heat of a festering argument. We don't always have the time to carefully evaluate every nuance of every post, and some innocent bystanders end up getting removed at the same time.

On the up side, we've recently added a new tool to the moderator control panel that lets us hide individual posts in a thread without removing them from that thread. This makes it possible to correct a hasty decision and restore a post to its previous position in a thread, which wasn't possible with the old tools we had available to us.

I think that would be all of them. I didn't actually bleed when I wrecked. A testament to good armor, I suppose.

That sounds like a very useful tool.

I appreciate the no personal attacks policy. If you can't get your point across without being a jerk about it, then go someplace else.

With regard to the criticism you and the other moderators receive, I say "to hell with them". Modern Vespa is *your* property. When somebody doesn't act the way you want them to act while on your property (and let's face it, you don't really expect *that* much), you have the right to take the actions you feel necessary without being taken to task for your actions.

It's no different than somebody walking into your house. There are certain rules expected. If somebody came into my house and started in with personal attacks or behaving in a manner inconsistent with what I expect from my guests, I'd ask them to leave. And if that didn't work, *make* them leave.

I don't see Modern Vespa as being any different. This is your house. These are your rules. We are merely guests who visit at your pleasure. While we're here, we actually get a lot out of our visits. Everyday there's a new post about somebody have this or that problem. Rarely are those problems left unsolved by the community.

A post of mine got deleted this week, and I wasn't surprised given the nearly-NSFW content.

Jess,

You and your peeps have this place about perfect and us scooter peeps thank you for the page. Don't take outside attacks personally, I know you have been getting some heat out there lately, screw those few.

MV is a great family, informative, sometimes corny (which is o.k. lol) but loved by many. You are a hard-core scooter guy, Cannonball winner and all, some people might be a little jealous and pick on you some.

Trust your decisions, you are right more often than not and your gut has given you the answers you have needed to run MV for 3 years very well.

Thanks bud,
David

Locked and un-edited threads, especially with an ending statement from a moderator, left visible allows users of the forums to learn and understand how the rules of this forum apply to specific situations.

On those few threads that I have witnessed go down the crapper, it seems they all head in a similar direction. Some folks just don't learn by reading the rules, they need to see those rules in action to understand them. I don't think it's as much of 'watching the horror of a car wreck' as much as it educates users to not repeat the past. Once a thread is locked *and* gone, no one has the opportunity to learn why that situation may or may not be appropriate on this forum.

1) I commend the way the MV moderators conduct this forum. Very usefull info from people that share your interest and help others enjoy their Vespas.
2) Regarding those offensive bullies found in other forums, I wish I could see them personally. I assure you that they would be humbled in no time flat.
They dare to insult behind a computer screen only.
Juan

Recently, yes, and it had NO place on this forum.

I believe the mods have done the best they can considering the rapid growth this forum has seen in 3 years. I heard recently that the percentage of locked threads to total posts has actually gone down. This is amazing, especially as we approach the 10,000 member mark.

I think you guys are doing a great job.

Jess,

Let me tell you that I am very happy this forum is moderated. If it wasn't I wouldn't be here. In fact in my eyes it is not moderated enough as far as foul language and borderline items that could get me fired for viewing this forum at work.

I really am appreciating the community you have built here and I think you are doing a great job. I am a father of one with another on the way and when you want to build a great legacy you will get resistance on the way. Every leader in history who we remember as a great like Lincoln, Washington, and MLK all had their enemies but they had in mind what was the best for everyone and for the future of their land and of course this is your land. Do what you think is best for the future of your forum.

Jess,

I've hung out at moderated boards and non-moderated boards and I much prefer the former. I have posted for more than eleven years at Porsche Pete's Boxster Board. Early on the founder struggled with the same complaints about "censorship" as you and I will never forget what he said in explaining deletions. He said that when you post here you are entering my living room and I want to feel comfortable letting my young daughter read the board.

None of my posts have been deleted but If one gets deleted I may ask you why so I will not repeat my mistake. Most likely I will know why in which case you will not hear from me. Please keep up the good work and I hope you will be able to ignore the noise.

Joseph King

I'm a scooter guy. I'm definitely not a scooter gang guy. Big difference. That whole BBS thing? Everybody enjoys a train wreck every now and then. But there are also bad train wrecks. And eventually it's just too much static, passive aggressive bullshit, judging and personal attacks to make a welcoming environment. And of course, participation dies. That's a shame. I frankly don't mind those threads disappearing. What "lessons" you could "learn" from them would be inconsistent, and dependent on you actually slogging through all the bullcrap dutifully "learning." Some are just downright offensive. You have to read it to figure out which ones would offend you? All the learning you need is in the moderation. threads get canned. duly noted. don't be a dick.

Besides...it's nice to see someone take pride in their house...make it nice and welcoming.

I am a big fan of wonderfully constructed, cogent responses in threads like this. That said, I tend to be a rambler, and so I'm going to avoid the chapter I've been planning in my head as I read the posts and skip straight to the part about the only gripes I have.

Let me first start by saying that I think you (and the moderators) have a very difficult job, and you all do wonderfully as it pertains to the day-to-day operations of Modern Vespa. Of all the forums I belong to, this is the only one I still check EVERY day (multiple times daily, typically), and it is ALWAYS the first place I come after my homepage.

When I first arrived here last year, I was a bit taken aback by the "warm and fuzzy" atmosphere here that was not shared at the other automotive forums to which I belong. No Off Topic, no PR&C - I was shocked.

"Ah....but one can curse here - interesting," I thought!

Over time, I got used to the "NSR" posts being mixed in with the rest of General Discussion, and quite frankly, I don't miss PR&C one bit. As you say, there are plenty of other places to argue on the internet - yes argue, not debate - and I'm happy that this doesn't have to be one of them.

My only lasting gripe about the moderation here really has to do with the forum software itself and not the actual people doing the moderating. Unfortunately, the two aren't 100% separable.

This business about petards and vegetable peelers was funny at first, but it's gone beyond the point of usefulness. Case in point:

G u n. G.u.n. G-U-N. Gee. You. Enn.
P.i.e. Applepie. piepiepiepiepie.
And so forth.

Yes, the "p.ie" posts got a little out of hand. I remember it clearly because it was shortly after I arrived here, and I didn't understand the reference. It was as if it were a 4000 member inside joke that wasn't in the least way funny, and I was #4001. Not the point.

My point is that people will find their way around the forum software, as I did above. If you don't want to allow discussions about g u n s in the same spirit of "no PR&C," that is your choice, but to be reading an otherwise really interesting thread about painting a scooter, only to come across the phrase "and you don't have to clean out your spray vegetable peeler" is like nails on a chalkboard in my brain. The same goes for "pie charts"!

It's a nifty feature, and it's one that has made many chuckle, but its effectiveness is lost. That said, I think it's time to pick some new words or put those "back to stock," so to speak.

Finally, I'd just like to close by saying that I very much like the new improvements to the layout of the forum. Modern and Not-So is only the natural progression of things, and in the end, I believe it will help grow this forum to one that is bigger and better.

I moderate a forum on audio engineering. There will always be some people on the planet that enjoy being d-bags.

Jess, please ignore them.
I have ridden with you, at speed, in close proximity. I have hung out with you. I have been helped by you when the chips were down.
Ignore the people who forget that this is not a place for any old remark that comes to them. This is a place to talk about Vespa scooters, which is why I am here.
I love to ride two wheeled anythings. Thank you for creating a place for people of like minds.

I think the moderation on this board is working well. I think that a lot of participants behave as though this is their first online community and they should get smacked a bit.

I joined this forum because I'm into scooters and all of the associated joys of scooter ownership. I love to read about cool mods, not-so-cool mods, great rides, etc. I get motivated to know that I can do a mod I'm thinking of, especially because someone else took the time to share their passion via a great write-up, a set of photos, or a detailed review.

I like the funny shit that shows up here from time to time: the FAIL threads, hell I even liked the gayness and scooters thread (and the number of views on that thread show I'm not alone).

To use a metaphor here - we have a pretty open road here with regards to how we use and participate in this forum. Like every road, though, there are rules that go along with it, and I expect that a moderator will step in to keep us within the guardrails.

The forum rules were made clear when I signed up for this forum and I know I have to abide ("The Dude abides...").

Really Bobo?
I was banned recently and I happen to think I was treated unfairly. I made NO personal attacks. It actually had NOTHING to do with the content of my posts.

Maybe you just weren't aware of it? Probably because the threads that were made regarding it were quickly sent to the thread graveyard. There were no personal attacks made, yet "poof" ... Gone. Just as I'm sure this post will be.

So, I'm sure it will come to no surprise to Jess and the Moderators that I feel this forum is OVER moderated.

Call Bullshit? Instead of using hypotheticals, pull my threads out of the graveyard and show me where they went wrong.

Mods... MV Bot has my phone number if you need to verify I posted this.

I read the news, shop and visit scooter forums about 90 percent of the time I am on the internet.

Modern Vespa has become a home base for me. I read it in the morning with coffee. I read it at work at breaks and lunch. (And sometimes when I should be working.) I read it most evenings.

It would not draw me as much as it does if the site were full of arguments and meanness. I love politics but know how fast it gets crappy especially when people can post anonymously.

Let's not change a thing.

Really, what's not to like?

Sure there might/will be times I don't agree with something whether its a poster or how things are run, but I really doubt it would be the end of the world.

Jess, its the people you enticed to come here with your boring old grey layout that keep me coming back.

Harv

This forum is well controlled and very enjoyable to be a part of. Your place, your rules. A generally good group , very willing to help and share their knowledge. For those who find it to restrictive there are alternatives, not as good (IMHO) but, they are there. Having spent time in several other two wheeled forums, I prefer the "no personal attacks" rule. I view these places as club like, those who can not work and play well with others don't belong in the club. Talking freely a must, but not at the cost of civility....JMHO

I think this forum is well-moderated. I am a mod on a much smaller board and even that can be a challenge. There will always be someone who questions the removal or editing of a post- even when it violates specific terms and conditions.

I know what it's like to question whether or not to remove a post and to feel like the object of a personal attack just because I did what I was supposed to do.

There are a lot of things that get posted here that are NSR- and are wildly funny and entertaining. I love the wit, humour and intelligence of some of the members. As long as I can still be entertained as well as educated I am happy with the level of moderation here.

Thanks Jess and all the moderators- we do appreciate the job you do and are so grateful to be part of this community.

Debbie

At times I have felt that the moderation of people with dissenting opinion was over the top.

I'm not so sure of that anymore, in the past year or so most of the people I've noticed banned were clearly working for it.

I don't agree with some posters being invited to leave or saying they're unwelcome on the board. That's arbitrary. Accusations of reading another member's private mail (in other words an attack on a person's integrity) is a good reason for banning a member and clearly in the guidelines.

This isn't a clubhouse or bar where everyone has a common history & knows where the other person is coming from. It's international forum, respect for other people's viewpoint has to be mandated, or it will become limited to those few with the need to be heard and who are least willing to listen. Some folks love to break things, or tell you how much better they could/should do it than you or you're a a**hole for not doing it their way. That's just the price of having a visable, public presence.

This forum is successful, with 6,750 members posting at least once and 80% of those posting again. Part of that success comes from being able to ask a simple (or dumb) question and not having some bitter regular telling you you're an idiot or dissing you for not knowing that already. I know there's been a few posts that I took as jokes that turned out to be serious questions. Too bad for me that I gave some smartass answer and felt like a jerk afterward. More sorry that I made someone with a serious concern feel dumb for asking.

If you need help with your Vespa, your dealer, etc. this is the place to learn. There's knowledgeable dealers, mechanics, DIYers and riders at all levels of experience who are willing to help. That's why people come back; that's why there's a need for a vintage section. That's why folks hang around & create a social space.


Regards
Harvey

Stella makes the only point I see that is new or different. She says she was banned and doesn't know wny. I fully support the mods right to ban on a moderated forum. I think, unless the offense is abundantly clear, i.e. porn or racist remarks or similar, its a good idea to email the offender with a why and what for.

Otherwise, moderate away! Its your place of business. We are just guests here.

I believe it is typical that the mods do send a message explaining the situation to you. Or at least it is with locked threads. It sounds from Stella's remarks that she was an exception. Maybe not, I really dunno. But I do know they sometimes do it!

Jess, it's a great thing you've created here. You must be doing something right.

I was banned and rec'd a very pleasant e-mail from Benito telling me exactly why.