Modern Vespa

All I could see was maybe an attack on someone selling junk, that stuff could hurt someone, I see the mods protecting MVers from getting screwed and/or hurt. Plus the guy in question is not part of the MV community.

Nice try. Keep digging.

I really enjoy coming to this forum because it is so well moderated. I hear enough of the other crap 365 days a year and i'd prefer not to hear it here. Thanks Jess for doing such a good job.

Oh no someone let the moderator off his meds. Looks like we're in for mod attacks tonight.

we frequently issue warnings in threads that are heading down the sh*tter. people seldom read and/or pay attention to them.

whilst arguing with people over the internet is sometimes complelling and, dare i say, enjoyable it can also cause anger and upset and always leaves me wondering why the idividuals involved don't just get a life and not impose their f*cked up attitiudes on the rest of us who come here for fun and friendship.

I have only been here 8 month..
Learned alot and laughed even more.

As for the rules of the site...

I grew up in a military family, on a military base ( many ) and I learned 1 major thing.
Respect those around you and if you are invited into their house respect their family and property..

This is Jesses' house he make the rules and we have to respect them..
There is no rule that says we have to stay here if we can not abide by his simple request.

No I am not a Brown Noser, I just really like it here. Much better than working while I am at work..

I too am disappointed about not being able to read the post that got a thread closed but I understand the Monkey-See-Monkey-Do intellect and the efforts to stop it.

What is the rule about riding?
Fixation.. If you stare at something you are going to hit it (or copy it ).

Sorry, read on, nothing to see here..move along..

Brilliant. That says it all.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

"free" speach comes at a price - careful consideration as to what is said, and sometimes an independent umpire is needed - a newspaper has an editor for example.

Anyways, Jess, it is your "house" - your rules.

Thanks for letting us in the front door to be a part of it.

I'd like to consider this our house ... the MV membership. I think Jess understands this, that is why he asked our opinion. This forum is special because of the membership. We all joined knowing it was a moderated forum. It is not so hard to treat each other with dignity and respect, that seems to be all that is asked for ...

It is our nature to always test the boundries in life. You can never have a perfect environment. Jess and all of the volunteers have tried to keep a balance to keep this forum Fun and a place where you can get valuable information.

The timing was right for this thread....

I have no interest in joining a Vespa Club. MV is my Club!


Cheers,

Gianni

Too bad there isn't some way we could vote and moderate ourselves.

So it might end up like Lord of the Flies by William Golding, or The Cement Garden by Ian Mc Ewan, but at least the mods could have a 20-30 minute break from sending people to the corner and giving timeouts.

I wouldn't make any apologies for your clearly written and easy to understood rules. It's your forum. I also wouldn't ask for anyone's approval of your rules. If they don't like the rules, it is a free world and anyone is welcome to leave at any time. Nobody is forcing them to use the forum.

Just do what you want Jess and to hell with the complainers. I recently had a question about your software and accessing the site. I have no problem at all with the answer rec'd. What I DO have a problem with is anyone questioning the reasons for my not wanting to keep cookies turned on. I have my reasons and it is my own business.

Don't apologize to anyone Jess and don't seek approval either ... unless of course you are rude or mean to someone, then an apology is in order because none of us has the ability to censor what you or the mods say!

It's a good board and in my opinion, properly moderated. Every now and again, you or an individual mod may make a call on a thread which might be considered overbearing by some. We are all human beings and as such, subject to making mistakes from time to time. People need to get over themselves and let some things slide when a mod makes an iffy call they don't agree with ... particularly when the mods are all volunteers!

I think the moderation of this site is well done 99% of the time. I have seen one instance where a moderator went off the rails a little, but that happens on any forum.

I may be biased in how I perceive forum moderation, ( I moderate a hugely trafficked kayak fishing forum) but I always took the perspective that forums like MV while open to the public exists at the discretion of the site owner. Kinda like this is Jess's house and he has invited us in to discuss all things Vespa and BS. As this is "his house", the house rules need to be followed by the guests. If you end up with a troll or party crasher who just creates drama, show 'em the door... and never hesitate to edit or delete posts that violate the stated posting rules.

People will always bitch when they are edited or deleted, but hey... this is Jess' site, not a public park. If that concept can't be understood send them packing.

This site is not overmoderated. It is well run, and because so, has a large membership. Don't let the Sally's that complain like they have a pebble in their.... err... pirelli's affect the vast majority of MV posters who stay between the lines.

Keep up the good work.

2 cents.

This is the internet and as such is open to anyone from anywhere (im from AUS). If I read something I do or dont like I make the decision to take on the info or forget about it. There is NO NEED to attack a person on the otherside of the world or in another state of your paticular country just because you dont like the idea, sentiment or information expressed/ contributed.

If the powers that be (creators of the site) want a friendly aptmosphere without the agro seen on other forums its a GOOD thing.

The less aggression or abuse slung around the site makes for more enjoyable reading and sets the tone for future onversations. As we have more then likely ALL experienced, if you get abused you wont give your experience or potential great idea as you dont feel comfortable which leads to less information being exchanged.

Well done to jess/ mods on making the site friendly.

Randall, You are operating under the mistaken belief that the prohibition against personal attacks applies to anyone, anywhere. They do not. For instance, I (or anyone else here) is free to make the observation that Rachel Ray is an idiot, for the simple reason that she is not a member here.

You've been explicitly excluded from this community for a variety of reasons that you'd probably prefer me not to mention.

For that matter, I can't very well enforce a prohibition against personal attacks between any parties outside of this forum, so what is said on ScooterBBS is well outside of the scope of this discussion. Sure. It sets a bad example. None of us, myself or the moderators, are perfect. There are literally hundreds of examples here on this forum where rules were applied unevenly because human beings were the ones applying them. Heck, just search for NapaCoach and see all the nasty things he said while he was still a moderator.

But since you asked, once you threatened legal action, I lost interest in helping you. I think I've made that very clear, and it's a policy I have personally applied very consistently. Legal threat == automatic ban. When you then went on to post long diatribes on ScooterBBS about how awful I am, and making up parts that are simply and provably untrue in an effort to smear me, you simply validated everything greasy said about you.

And you're still very much not welcome here, so go away, Randall. I'm removing your lurker account.

haha. I knew that account was Randall. I just wondered when he got an LX150?

Jess, can you please give me an example of where I broke the rules?

That's disingenuous at best, T, and I'm disappointed that you would resort to that kind of misdirection just to make us look bad. The moderators made it clear that your account was suspended because they felt that M@ was posting from it. Whether it's true or not is something we'll never know for sure, but that was their judgement call (I was on Cannonball at the time) and I'm supporting them in making a call, one way or the other.

At issue, IMO is the two disparate goals of a BBS style community.

Goal 1: Provide a venue for open and frank discussion of the Modern Vespa scooter's and associated topics like safety, gear, and service.

Goal 2: engage a large base of people to contribute to the whole.

Goal 1 depends upon Goal 2. Goal 2 comes with the inherent risk. What invariably happens in this situation is that the older more knowledgeable crowd pushes information out there, to fulfill Goal 1 and then turns to the social aspect of a BBS.

The transition from purely informational to social is where things are a struggle. 100% of the deleted posts are of a social nature, not informational, and moderation is required because some people are unable to restrain themselves when it comes to the internet (something about being able to say what they want without fear of physical retribution ie, getting punched in the face for being an asshat).

That is where moderation comes into play.

In my own experiences, there are a couple of ways to handle things.

One, you can let things self moderate (ScooterBBS), this has varying degrees of success and depends heavily upon the make up of the community. I think witnessing ScooterBBS, we can conclude that the make up of this community really isn't suited to self moderation.

Two, you can take a hard line on specific issues and have a no tolerance position. This takes discipline and multiple moderators to quickly flag and tag posts that cross the line. It also requires documentation for the alway volatile 'Why ...' discussions that are often more inflammatory than the original post.

Three, public humiliation. This is the avenue that seems to have had the most success in forums I've seen remain viable the longest. Create a 'Pit'. When a thread crosses the line, don't lock it, move it to the pit which is not tracked by the 'new posts' page. Leave it open, and allow the uncontrolled mess to play out in public view. The pit is where the asshats confirm their identities, and after 3-4 threads get moved to the pit by the same user, there is a good chance that the general population will begin to 'get' the point.

I think what gets moderation in trouble more often than not is that the 'courtesy' employed by locking a thread and not outing the asshats does two things. It allows for speculation of the reasons and while the moderators take the moral high ground of not speaking about it, the speculation of the reasons open the door for more drama. Second, it creates a situation such that legitimate threads get jacked, and deleted, and the OP's are the ones victimized. Being an innocent victim creates the resentment that seems to feed the drama llama in the speculation 'why' threads and thus the cycle begins to feed upon itself.

That's why I like the 'Pit' or 'Wall of Shame' venue of public humiliation. Let the individuals that continually put do these things where the badge.

The other approach I've seen has been a reputation tag that goes with a user. In some cases I've seen it awarded, but the system I've liked the best was one where we maintained a 'Karma' for a poster. Each post earned a 'Karma' point(s), if a post results in a thread getting moved to the pit, the Karma for that post is negative x5. negative Karma users got their posts flagged with a Bad Mojo flag, and that user had to deal with the public shame on EVERY post they made until they cleaned up their act. The system is biased towards bad karma. You have to be good 5x as much as you are bad, to keep a good karma. This is to encourage people to keep things civil and positive, and to take their inner asshat elsewhere.

An excellent post, Dru. Thanks.

Ya, Len, you put to words what's been in my head. I've been happy to visit MV because the shit-stirring has been kept to a minimum, and we can enjoy some shared scootin' interests, and maybe help some folks, unfettered by the reality that beyond the common interests of the board, we could absolutely hate each other. It's a nice little controlled situation the general public can enjoy--like a park. You still find the occasional character who can't or won't control the inner asshole in him/her, and some who obviously actively enjoy shit stirring (oh, I'm sorry...that's pejorative. I mean "just expressing his true self" which just happens to involve throwing feces on the walls). It's nice to know that there're park rangers and janitors here to tell those folks that such actions overstep the rules of the park, and clean those things up. I wouldn't frequent this park nearly so much if I had to look at the crap on the walls all the time.

Now, I fully realize that I could accidentally have a bowel movement in the park one day too. Oops, did shit in our park? You know what...I fully expect if that should happen I would be escorted off the premises as well, with an explanation as to why I've been escorted out. Do I think it is necessary or useful for the staff to leave that steaming pile of shit there for other people to "learn from" with the big red "X" through it? Well, I suppose it would get the point across to some. And you *know* the Beevis and Butthead within us would enjoy the "heh heh...there's a pile of shit in the park" punchline. But really...is it what *I'd* like to see in the park? No. Do I mind that there's no garbage dump where I can pick through the remains of decomposing shit that has been removed from public eye? What's wrong with you, boy?!? You ain't right in the head!! That's why we give children diapers, god dammit. Play with your own shit in your own house, don't play with other people's shit in the park!

Well, without wanting to make a political statement, a recent recap of the news, particularly in relation to the economy show what an example of what happens when un-moderated behavior occurs in an organization.

There are some other examples of un-moderated behavior much closer to the scootering world of late, resulting in major disenfranchisment by some, major heartburn by others, but I'm not going there.

The point being, without some system of checks and balances, things can derail whether that organization is a multi-billion dollar financial giant, a scooter club, or an internet user group.

I deeply enjoy this forum. It is one of 2 that I check religiously (can I use that word ) I admire the effort that the moderators put in to keep this a civil and informative place to while away the hours. If folks don't like the way the forum is run, then run along. There are plenty of places you can find to express yourself. Breaking a rule to fix it never works.

Keep up the good work and stay true to your vision. It's a good one.

Well Jess, being that I know you personally and have been around Modern Vespa since the beginning, I find it disingenuous that the moderators banned me (wrongfully so in my opinion) and you still stand behind their decision.

Just to clarify, I never said I didn't know why I was banned. What I said was that I made no "personal attacks" nor did I break any rules. I was giving my personal reasons for feeling that this site is over moderated. I didn't get into the details of my banning for fear of being banned again being that the mods made it obvious they wanted it swept under the rug as evidenced by them pulling threads that discussed my banning.

I don't remember there being any discussion either of why Napacoach was banned. One day he was there, and the next day he was not. The thread that it happened on <i>must</i> have been pulled if it existed at all. We don't know for sure because there is no record of it. All we have to go off of is the moderators word. Not that I don't trust the moderators...uh...I'm just gonna stop now. You are under no obligation to tell us the reason why you ban every member, but still, if you leave the threads locked (but still viewable) we being the intelligent adults that we are can easily put two and two together. It's easier than all of this he said/she said BS.

Leaving a "closed thread" up for everyone else to view is not a bad thing. It's kind of like a public lynching and then leaving the body hanging as a warning & a deterrent to others who may be thinking of committing a similar crime,

This post was not quite
What we were hoping to see
Try again, perhaps?

I'm not sure MV is over moderated,
I just think a flood of newer, thin -skinned, non-internet savvy users are here and are easily offended by discussion that is off topic, and sarcastic, opinionated, etc.
because maybe they are reading posts without a grain of salt, and without looking for humour, and emotion more subtle then...


In terms of locked/ deleted threads:
I think that if something gets posted here, it should stay readable until martians destroy earth.

Some may disagree, but I think deep down, everyone wants to see the locked and deleted threads because its entertaining, and that's why we're here on MV.

No one is here to learn about vespas, we're hear to talk about whatever while killing time at work, or some other time.

I've made a bunch of friends from here and the BBS

and I'll definitely make fun of newbies who post about "how to put gas in the vespa" ... but in a light hearted way.

and if i see any of you in person, I'll make you buy me a beer,

sometimes, i think this board is over-moderated. sometimes, i think it's not moderated enough. mostly i think it's over-moderated. i personally don't care if someone is being snarky or sarcastic. but, apparently others are easily offended.

my main problem is that i don't think there is consistency in the moderation. i see posts where people are cursing at someone for having a difference of opinion and the posts remain. yet, i see other posts somewhere else that have a different result.

so, if you're going to moderate, be consistent. moderate everyone for the same "offenses" or don't moderate at all.

Well said. If the threads are left locked that only leaves conjecture. Locking a complete thread leave the viewer with no idea about the subject, a bit like 1984 when stories, words and pictures were airbrushed out to leave the populace with no idea about what happened and why.
Banning SneakyStella on the basis that some mods thought it was Matt posting is the hallmark of a police state - all based on hearsay in that case. Not the sort of moderation I like to see.

You should know that my comments were general, not directed at anyone in particular - on the UK forums we are very hot on naming and shaming any dealer who provides shoddy goods or services. As I have no personal knowledge of you, how can I pass judgement? Others clearly do have such knowledge though, and I go by their judgement.

Bye.

that would involve reading every single post in every single thread, and even though there are now apparently 480,000 moderators on MV, we still don't have time to do that. so we rely to some extent on members to flag up offensive content. it would also involve all of the moderators being offended by exactly the same things, and agreeing 100% of the time on what's offensive and what isn't.

aside from MV-Bot (who is passed out in greasy's shop at the moment after bingeing on 5W40), all the moderators here are human volunteers with day jobs. sometimes we miss things, sometimes some of us pull posts or close threads that other moderators wouldn't. until we work out the kinks in the automated moderating system, people are just going to have to live with our occasional failings i'm afraid.

Yes. I stand behind the decisions of my moderators. If I were to disagree with their actions, I would be talking about it with them in private, not as a public discussion. We actually threads to keep them from turning into giant arguments, not because we're trying to hide anything. But if you'd rather think of it as us hiding something, I'm not going to try to stop you.

NapaCoach was given more warnings (and more chances to behave) than any other user in the entire history of the forum. We banned him because he proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he would not stop insulting people who he felt were beneath him.

We actually gave him a six-month timeout, but I've decided to make it permanent. We pulled it, which is what we generally do. I've explained at length why we do that, and I'm really not interested in repeating myself right now. Yes, and I've explained at length why that's a bad idea, too.

We certainly strive for consistency, but you're asking an awful lot of an all-volunteer group. I mean, just the amount of posts here all by itself makes it impossible to read everything, and nobody reads a post in exactly the same way.

Want to join the staff and see what it's like?

Anyone want to go for a ride on their scooter?

Can't, it's raining, my tires are bald and the shop doesn't have their new tire press to get the darn thing changed yet .

Saturday morning here, the start of Summer and the sun is shining.
I have genuine sympathy for you Dru.
Beaming some sunshine your way.

I think you are doing a good job at keeping things civil. There are always people who thrive on insulting others, and that kind of atmosphere is rather pathetic.

I do get a good laugh out of some of the "word" substitutions that take place. I tried to use a word that described a "large caliber firearm that sends out small pellets" and your software instantly changed it to "powerpuff."

But I am happy to be here and very happy to have access to the vast amount of practical information on this site. I certainly could not find it in my "Owners Manual."

i agree with the people asking to see locked threads. often i have started reading something, come back several hr.s later to see how its progressed, only to find it locked, and i have no idea what happened.

i have also totally missed what the deal with patches and invisible clubs is.

but back to the question.

moderated well. sarcasm, humor and personality are often lost in text.

keep up the good work.