Modern Vespa

For many Americans, we're "wow'd" at European and Chinese commuters swarm the streets on scooters. I just saw a collection of pics from a colleague on a European trip - dozens of pictures with nothing but scooters, streets lined up with scooters, tons of parking spots specifically for scooters, etc. What's your take on the U.S. and scooters in the future?

here, at least, there are still not that many scooters. many of which are small 50cc things. most of the people riding them seem to not be able to decided if they are a motorcycle, and bicycle or a pedestrian- confusing the crap out of all other drives.

until a much much larger group of people start riding here, and cars get used to them, and people figure out how to behave on a scooter- its going to continue to be weird and essentially more dangerous, because people are still not used to them.

i think it will take a while for us to reach this point. until gas doubles or triples in price, i don't think were really going to see that much commuter difference.
also, the up grading of public transportation systems is a must. Denver's, really sucks. the buses are confusing. they have huge plans for "fast tracks" but keep holding off on building the light rails and the price for everything thing keeps blowing out their budget the more they wait to start.

i hope that was mildly coherent.

I think the price of gas will add more scooters on to the road here in the US. Isn't the price of fuel outrageous in europe? In the US I think we got it easy so far, yet people still like their gas guzzling SUVs ( Me being one of them with a Tahoe getting 11mpg) I'd like to see stats regarding cellphone related driving accidents in Europe vs the US.

i've noticed a 700% increase in the number of scooters on the road with me since this time last year. last year just me. this year i've seen 7. 8)

I've seen a huge increase here in Sacramento. I hope the government doesn't do anything rash. EPA is already doing their best. Check out this link.
http://www.vespausa.com/Vespatition/

I'm thinking, for places where people require autos for their 60+mile commute to work, a scooter is not an option. It'll work in cities like Manhattan or areas where the commute is not that far. As for gas, yeah, I'm sure it'll play a huge role in the rise of scooter sales and commuters as we saw just this past summer.

I've heard how lobbyists (tire companies maybe oil companies too?) got the city of San Diego to pull our in-city public rail system here like what they still have in Long Beach. They had them rip out the tracks and take town the power cable grid just so the public can rely only public buses or purchase their own autos. Theory? Real?

Another thing to consider, many Americans prefer to be 'seen' on Harleys or sportbikes - never on 'mopeds'.

The travelling conditions are vastly different in Europe and the US. For one thing, the population density of the US is very low. Take a look at a globe and compare the size of France and Texas. It's not uncommon for americans to work or go to school 100 miles from where they live. I only live 1 mile from work, so a scotter is perfect for me. But if you live on a dirt road in Maine, 15 miles from your job, you're just not going to like getting on a Vespa in freezing, rainy, January conditions.

Also, many US communities are far newer than their European counterparts, and were more or less designed around car traffic. In some places, like southern California, there are towns where pedestrians, bikes and scooters were never really considered as the infrastructure was laid out. My mom used to live in a big development on top of a hill in Mission Viejo. The only approach to that community was from a very steeply inclined street with no sidewalks, or even shoulders. You might be able to get in and out on a scooter, but walking or riding a bike would be very difficult. Cars and trucks just don't make sense in medieval European villages, so scooters become a lot more attractive.

So I think a lot of accomodations will have to be made in our road networks, parking laws, etc., before we'll get vastly more people on scooters. And, cities will have to think long and hard about zoning, taxing and housing policies that currently encourage, or even force, people to commute from "residential" to "industrial" and "commercial" areas.

The U.S. is much more spread out. Density is the major issue. Our expectation of how we conduct our lives, including commutes for work and travel for shopping, is shaped by these distances and it will require changing of these expectations to make a big difference in the way people travel. In all but the most dense cities in the US, a car makes life dramatically easier.

Mass transit conspiracies are around in a lot of places. I am fairly sure that most bus drivers are homicidal maniacs bent on killing me and making it look like an accident. I'm also fairly sure they get bonuses for how much they can back up traffic in moderately dense neighborhoods. Trains and streetcars are great because they have their own dedicated paths. But there is no getting around the increased flexibility of buses.

Many many years ago the little community that I live in had 12 passenger trains a day coming through. You could get on a train in the morning in Union Furnace (10 miles away) ride into town to sell your eggs and chickens and ride back that evening.

Now if you want to ride the train at all you've got to drive at least an hour.

They've been talking about a rail line between Cleveland Columbus and Cincy for years but what do you when you get off the train and everything is still miles away in the suburbs ?

67 miles round-trip, almost every day, plus side-trips and errands. Probably not for everybody but it makes me happy.

P.

Another fellow colleague of mine said, "No matter how bad your day went, once you get on your Vespa, it all goes away." - Crazy B. Yes, it is fun and it makes me happy too.

That's what it's like around here... I may see one scooter every other week, but on the weekend, I'll be waiving to a motorcycle almost every mile (mostly H-D/cruisers).

I'll believe that the US is PRO scooters once NYC starts creating spots for scooter parking. But I think hell will freeze over before that ever happens.

Gas prices going up will eventually tip a resurgence to mass-transit - which is woefully scant in the US, depending upon where you live. At the same time we will eventually see more and more scooters - I don't see it happening quickly - but I think it will evenutally happen.

At least manufacturers are starting to send us a new crop of small displacement motorcycles (2009 Ninja 250r, 2009 Suzuki TU250). Maybe more scooters are just around the corner.

Agreed.

Ironically I think it's smaller cities that seem to be more open to scooters and scooter parking (Seattle, Portland, Boston possibly).

The thing about NYC right now is "congestion". And currently that is defined as motor vehicles. The proposed congestion pricing plan (similar to London) failed but it did not exempt 2-wheelers (charged them 50%) and did not create 2-wheeler spaces.

Believe me, there was/is uproar, petitions, hearings, etc. The current NYC administration just views all motorized vehicles in the same light and is putting it's efforts into bicycle lanes, mass transit, and reducing motorized vehicles at all costs (I use the term motorized vehicles often because basically it is has a plate it's all the same as far as the city is concerned).

Would NYC benefit from European like acceptance of 2-wheelers? Hells yeah! Would the rest of the country probably follow suit? Possibly.

It would be great, and all 2-wheel owners/riders want it, but it isn't going to happen anytime soon unfortunately.

I don't think they'll ever be big here. And I don't think it's because of logistics such as population density, average commuting distances, etc.

I think it's b/c of cultural values. In the US, there seems to be a premium placed on status, comfort, personal freedom, and machismo.

This translates to attitudes like 'I'll drive the biggest car I want to b/c it's comfortable, makes me look rich, I have the right to do it, and because it's tough looking.'

Yeah, I hear you. But you know, it's all trendy I think (before, bigger is better i.e. SUVs, etc.; Now smaller, i.e. SmartCars, = better) What's next? But trend or no trend, I'm hoping that we all see (ahem) the big picture.

Disclaimer: I do like SmartCars. If it can tow my Vespa to far away places when work and vacation time won't permit, I'd get one. For now, I'll stick to my SUV (ahem...Hybrid SUV...and of course, my Vespa) 8)

Although I am seeing more scooters (and PTWs in general) lately, I don't think it will become a major trend - not even 10 per cent of vehicles. (Though, come to think of it, 10 per cent would be pretty awesome. )

More likely, people will migrate to smaller and more fuel-efficient cars. I just don't think our society is ready to give up the automobile.

Other than gas prices, incentives such as free and available parking could make a difference.

I don't think those are uniquely american concepts, it's just that we have more resources to put into realizing them. Those $400,000 Rolls Royces and $300,000 Ferraris, BMW X5s and Land Rovers come from Europe after all. No point in having a US-style pickup in some 1,500 year old town in Italy, because it wouldn't fit through the gates.

As far as I know, the DC metro hasn't paid for itself in rider fees ever, and presumably there are plenty of people there who have the suggested cultural values.

Even if you could change everyone's attitude, you'd still have to deal with the real logistical and infrastructure issues. Public trans is unworkably innefficient in rural areas, and you can't exactly tend your fence lines with a Vespa.

Yeah, and some states are actually de-incentivizing scooter use. My brother works in Philadelphia, and lives in New Jersey. Previously, two wheeled vehicles only had to pay half the standard toll to cross the appropriate bridge. Now, they've just changed that so that motorcyces pay the same rate as cars. Effectively, this will double the cost of his commute.

Actually, the rails where just paved over. Many still exist and are found when our crumbling water system in San Diego has a major burst.

I remember, many moons ago, when they were installing the new rails for the SD Trolley in Downtown SD, they found rails to an old rail system that connected Hillcrest and the central city.

During my vacation, I stopped in Seattle and noticed old rails being unearthed by construction. In SF, by the Maritime Museum, there are extinct rails leading to the beach.

FYI Tahoe should be getting close to 18 mpg

Wayne B

i live in a suburb of toledo, ohio and drive 30 minutes each way to work. i decided to stop complaining about our dependence on foreign oil and take a bullet for the team--bought a vespa and sold my minivan. this was with great sacrifice because the commute is already becoming bone chilling cold in the morning and it's only october.

well guess what, the cost of a barrel of oil has dropped like the stock market and people are already starting to think short term--buying suv's. don't believe me? i just read an article on msnbc that as car sales took a dive last month suv sales were actually up. i normally consider myself conservative but on foreign oil i think we need to take drastic/radical steps and tax the f@ck out of gas. not diesel, just gas. when are american's going to wake up? the previous post about toll roads raising their fees for two wheel vehicles to that of four makes my blood boil.

is this truly the greatest county? how many people that say it is have never stepped foot on foreign soil? i seriously need to move my family out of here. oh, and by the way i served my country proudly for 12 years so don't question my patriotism!

when I was in Chicago full time I used the L train all the time but now I guess its faster to ride down the road on the scooter the train system is so messed up and out of date , around curves it has to slow to 10 mph
also you have to pay for that city tag about $50 but then deal with Pot Holes and the risk of getting lost in one or taking a dive because of one

and that city is Train City

I agree with you because I have witnessed it. I have been riding a bus to work for three years. First I started out riding very randomly and as time went on I found myself riding the bus every day. I then thought 'why do I have a car' so I sold it. I needed alternate transportation in case I needed to run an errand etc... so I bought my scooter.

Anyway when I first started riding the bus in Austin there was maybe 10 people on my bus each morning. When gas prices climbed the number of people on my bus went up to 50 in the matter of 2 weeks.

The downside is I am one of the few that lives a couple blocks from a bus stop which ends up dropping me off across the street from my employer. Most people have to transfer etc... which would take an hour or two to get to work while my bus trip probably takes maybe 10 minutes longer than it used to take me in my car.

I was just recently in Budapest and the public transportation there was amazing. The buses etc... were really worn down but you could pretty much get anywhere you wanted in the city quickly. The buses showed up every 5 to 10 minutes while here in Austin it is every 20 to 30 minutes. They were also more efficient. The doors would open and close quickly and people would get on and off quickly. Here in Austin the door opens and people get on single file and it takes at least 5 minutes for 20 people to board. I read a statistic that over 50% of the population there still use public transportation and I see why. The public transportation here is poorly routed and takes too darn long. Here in Austin most of the buses go around downtown with only maybe one line from each of the major areas to get to downtown. (I am lucky to be on one of those 10-15 lines)

If the bus system was as convenient in big cities similar to Europe the US could reduce their dependence on foreign oil. You don't need transportation in the small cities. Most of the vehicles in use are just stuck in traffic jams in big cities anyway and those cities have the biggest potential for mass transit but they fail on so many levels.

I am not so sure gas prices will affect scooter/MC adoption as much as the availability of parking. One of the things I like best about the scooter is not having that miserable 15-20 minute hunt for a parking spot. In San Jose at least, it seems like as malls get rebuilt, the parking space to store ratio goes down and at most times of the day, just heading over is a chore. While I try to avoid it as much as possible, sometimes it is nice to meet a couple of buddies at Santana Row for a bite without all the hassle, and this is where a 2 wheeler excels. I think bikes/scooters/MC's and cars are linked somewhat, an excess number of cars encourages an increased number of 2 wheelers of all sorts. Besides, the scooter is just plain fun!

I'd like to know, what did spark the scooter phenomenon in Europe? Oi, Euro friends. Care to chime in, mates!?

Actually, I think the "cultural values" you refer to are only as strong as they because it was relatively CHEAP to pursue those things for some time. Cheap gas, easy credit and a "wealth" based on false economies -- that party is OVER.

1. Denser city populations
2. Smaller/narrower streets and fewer places to park
3. High fuel price/tax

Those would be my guess.

A very visionary Piaggio built them and the people bought them. It was post WWII, and Piaggio had a wartime aircraft company looking for a peace time mission. Vespas were a hell of a lot more affordable than cars, and faster than donkeys. I can attest to the latter, as two of my neighbors still ride donkeys. And Piaggio had the facilities to mass produce them. So he set out to, and succeeded in producing economical transportation for the masses.

It is a little known fact (sarcasm alert) that a major part of WWII was fought on European soil, and the countries on the continent were devastated, both physically and economically. The Vespa opened the door for the worker to afford motor transportation while the infrastructure was being rebuilt. That rebuilding took years.

Brooke mentioned population density. Short commute distances made scooters quite attractive. The rise in the larger displacement scoots is, in part, due to workers commuting longer distances, on better roads, than before.

There is the parking issue, as well. Many European cities simply do not have streets capable of handling hordes of large cars. Small cars take up much less space, and PTWs even more so, especially where sidewalk parking is allowed.

And, the Vespa is sexy. Was then and is now.

That's the short version.

Al

That would have been GM. They went around and bought up municipal streetcar systems and slowly converted them to their busses. They littrially dumped the old streetcars in the oceans and sometimes stock piled them. Then they forced the cities to take over bus operations and guess what they had to buy... GM busses and tires. Street cars were everywhere. My dad told me about the one that traveled down the coast line when he lived in Pacific Palasades. He aslo remembered when they stock piled them up sometimes 5 high. We still have tracks under our streets here in Sacramento.

If there other thread is true we might need to buy future scooters with the Amero....

Wow, it's a "crossthread".

Interesting discussion. (Great response, Al) Thanks for all your insights. What I'm getting at is the U.S. will probably never have as much scooters as Europe does. Select U.S. cities with dense populations may see it only if they can accomodate parking for them or provide better incentives for owning them. (Crossthread alert) What's ruining it for Americans also is the large number of POS scooters popping up on Craigslist. They've tried to get into the scooter lifestyle but will probably never go back because (from their experience) scooters are unreliable.

The very same thing happened here in Kansas City. The street where I work has rails embedded. It was therefore not regraded last time it was paved, and has led to massive puddles all long the road.

A light rail question will be on our ballot this November, and I hope it will pass. I think we need a diverse transit system (both nationally and locally), and I think something like this would help further fuel the movement of suburban dwellers back to the city here in KC.

Could you perhaps tell me what the "scooter lifestyle" is? Over here, it is a very logical form of transportation.

I had six years Vespa riding experience on relatives' Vespas before I had the chance to buy my own. For 41 years that I owned that Vespa in the US, it was an enjoyable form of transportation, and quite often logical as well. Based on where my residence was in relation to my office, it was a commuting vehicle. If it wasn't practical for commuting, it was practical for other transportation reasons, to include pleasure riding. During all those years, I also owned a two seat, open cockpit roadster of one sort or another. Similar reasons.

But "lifestyle"? I find it hard to see most PTW ownership defining a lifestyle. Methinks you are reading too much into the vehicle. Living in a motorhome and continuously traveling, that's a lifestyle.

Now, I do agree that those burned by purchasing a junker may have second thoughts about scooters. But then, were they buying transportation or toys? It's a much more complex question.

Al

The word "lifestyle" is relative. In this context, I used it in a very broad fashion. Pub-hopping every night is a lifestyle. Being a beach-bum is a lifestyle. A lifestyle is a way we choose, or are served with, our everyday living. It's what we make of our daily routine. Can of worms alert -> now scooter lifestyle and scooter "scene", that's another topic I don't really want to get into. To some, it's almost the same, but for others, it's "exclusive"

More on lifestyles: I sold my Derbi Boulevard 150 to a nice mid-40s lady who wants to start using a scooter for her everyday (short) travels. She's retired (no more long commutes to the office). She'll be using it for trips to the market, the local community centers, visit her friends in another neighborhood, trips to the beach, etc. -- all these events revolve around her scooter. That's a lifestyle.

If she did not have the Boulevard (a scooter I really like, BTW), would she still go to the market, community center, visit friends, etc? If so, then it's a stretch to call her scooter a "lifestyle"

Al

To answer your question and still focus on the topic, I'm sure she would, however, and this is true for majority of us scooterists, having purchased a scooter allowed us to use it more often that we would with our autos. It allowed us to see the coast in a different way, to smell the ocean mist, to feel the cool breeze, to see the mountains and hills more open, take on the twisties and curves a different way than it is with autos. Maybe this is old new for countries that have had scooters for many years, but for many of us here, we have adopted this somewhat new way of life -- taking on the streets on two wheels for a more liberating experience with the open air. This is the lifestyle of a scooterist! 8) (btw, we've been on two wheels for many years, in motorcycles, but scooters for the masses here is something new, again.)

P.S. yeah, I loved that bike.

I think it's important to remember that most of Europe is more temperate than large chunks of the US. For instance winter in Paris or London is a lot like Portland: chilly and damp, but not snowy. And Italy quite temperate in the Southern areas like Rome.
This makes a big difference with all-year scooter commuting.

I'm interested to see if the scooter & motorcycle boom of the summer translates into more riders in the winter. With some warmer gear, it's certainly possible to rider year-round in the NW. But my local scooter shop went from being booked 2 weeks out this summer to having lots of free time. So it seems like many of the local italian scooters at least have packed it up for the fall/winter. I'll see if scooter parking gets easier.