Modern Vespa

Yes, and Paris is teeming with scooters. The UK has significantly more PTWs per capita than the US. - one per 15 persons UK) versus one per 55 (US) or so. Germany has as many PTWs on the road as the US, resulting in a per capita of one per 14 persons. So climatology is not the answer.

While Europe was establishing a love affair with scooters and other PTWs, we Americans established our love affair with the automobile. The construction of the US interstate highway system fueled that love affair. But again, Europe was devastated after WWII, and cars are more expensive than scoots. The use of PTWs became commonplace, and continues so, even as cars became more affordable and more commonplace.

I would also bet that bicycles are more common for transportation in parts of Europe than in the US. For transportation, not just fun.

Al

Though there are plenty of scooters and motorcycles, Seattle isn't a very scooter friendly town. however there are some motorcycle specific parking areas in the downtown corridor. There are no meters, only pay stations which issue a sticker for the amount of time you have purchased. You have to affix this to your headlamp and the only thing preventing someone from stealing it for their own use is common decency (which is in surprisingly good order based on my experiences. )

For others in Seattle, here's a map: http://web1.seattle.gov/seastats/doServices.aspx (note: the UI sucks. Zoom to 4, then click "Transportation" and check the "motorcycle parking" box.)

Can't speak for London -- only been there a couple times and know just one resident. But as for Paris, the one thing Parisian riders have to fall back on if and when it gets too cold or too wet to ride, is EXCELLENT public transportation. That said, I've been to Paris twice in the winter time and there didn't seem to be any fewer riders on the streets during the cold months than during the warmer months. People adapt, and clearly the Parisians have learned to live with it on two wheels.

For the record, I'm a weather wimp, as are many Southern Californians. We may know how to take a bullet, survive an earthquake or riot, but "cold weather" to me is anything below 70 degrees F. BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

I've noticed a HUGE increase in motorcycle ridership around where I live/commute but have only seen 3 other scooters on the road this year.

Public transportation in the area is sadly a joke. People are more willing to spend tax money on new sports stadiums for losing teams than they are supporting lightrail or even a decent regional bus system.

Around here we really only get 2months of summer. But it's topsy-turvy weather the rest of the year.

It's Sunday Oct 19th and 3celcius right now. Only the hardcore riders will get out today. Riders need to dress up to get out. Cages just drive from indoor garage to indoor garage.

I don't think gas prices or economy will move more people to two wheels. Two wheels are not practical for a means of transportation most of the year. They will remain an alternative mode of transport for when the weather co-operates. There are very few of us who will ride as long as the roads are dry.

Improved public transportation will get some out of cars and onto buses, but still not enough. Transit simply couldn't keep up with the demand.

I would like to see more people out on two wheels but I don't see it happening. Certainly not to the degree of Europe.

As a longtime European resident who grew up in the USA, I say Al is 100% right, in this post and others. I would just like to add that most Americans don't appreciate how traffic-clogged many European cities are, and many people ride scooters in ways that are almost unheard-of in the US, all in the interests of avoiding traffic jams (bike lanes, sidewalks, in between lanes of traffic, wherever there's room for two wheels). I am currently waiting for my first Vespa, and the main reason I ordered one is because taking the car out of the garage around here can be the most frustrating thing in the world. I live in the center of a thriving, modern city that has been built on a medieval (and in some places even older) floorplan, and it just can't handle the traffic. I try and take my bicycle where I can, but sometimes I need to go places and not be sweaty when I get there...

...now, if I can just not get run over by a mad Frenchman while I learn how to ride the thing.

Clearly that Europe is less 'vast' than US and has a more densed traffic.

In the Netherlands, scooters sales are growing rapidly, but limited to 50cc 'moped class' scooters

2006 50.000 scooters sold;
2007 73.000 scooters sold;
2008 expectations are around 85.000 scooters.

This on a population from 16 million people

Both good insights. Even in NYC, probably the most scooter-incentived city in the US (if not scooter-friendly), sees most of the scooter riders disappear when the weather gets cooler, say under 50F degrees. Even I, who would ride any time the streets did not have snow/ice on them, have to give up at least two months of the year when there is basically always ice at street corners in the morning in my neighborhood (Manhattan-only people have it a little easier).

So even in the most appropriate place in the US to use a scooter as a primary transport, there is a lack of legal parking and roughly a quarter of the year where you can't ride.

Living in the warmer parts of the country where one could ride pretty comfortably all year round, such as the Sun Belt or the Southwest, generally involves so much long distance driving that small displacement scooters are not going to be a popular choice either.

There's also the hassle of getting a license. You have to go to the DMV, take a written test, figure out a way to take and pass a road test...

Plus as soon as you have a family you can't ride except as a solo commute, unless you have only one kid who's old enough to ride pillion (going Vietnam-style with five people on a scooter being illegal in this country).

So in addition to the limiting factors from robotribe and IndieJones, the target demographic for scooter riding in the US is someone who:

- Has a short-hop or intra-urban commute
- Has no kids, or grown independently mobile kids, or can afford a separate solo commuter vehicle on top of the family car(s)
- Is willing to ride about 75% of the year or less (i.e., this is not their only vehicle)

In other words, it's typically at best a useful luxury (something that makes your life more fun, easier/quicker than driving or mass transit, or slightly cheaper on the gas costs, but not really necessary), and at worst a toy for the occasional joyride.

Finally, from a cultural perspective, if you're going to meet all the above criteria, even going so far as to get a motorcycle license, why not get "a real motorcycle" (as all of us scooterists have heard at some point or other)? Especially if you're going with a Vespa that costs over $6,000 USD, at which price one could get many a 500cc-range cruiser or sportbike and get more "respect", not to mention a more comfortable highway/long-distance rider.

I do see a lot of scooters in NYC because we do have a lot of folks who fit the profile of "young urban people with disposable income, who want to look urban/hip/Euro-chic and who live, work and play without leaving the core of the city". I've seen it too in other densely populated US cities like Boston, Chicago, Washington DC. But nationwide, I think we'll only see the appeal of very cheap scooters (the Chinese imports) rise, purely for the gas mileage, and very small displacement scooters (50cc and under), for those areas where no additional license is needed for them.

When gas hit's $5.00 or more it will happen.

I just went to Budapest and it was interesting what you mention above. There it is slightly different. Still 55% of the population rides public transportation from the communist days. I don't know if it is because it is so convenient or what but other than that I would say there is probably the same ratio if not a slight bit more bikes than in the US but definately not as much as other parts of Europe.

The funny thing about what you said above is one of the people I was working with there rode a motorcycle to work and I mentioned how I saw them riding them on the sidewalks and he replied, "Well as long as you are going less than 25km/h it isn't a problem" They weave in and out of the pedestrians on one of the most busy roads.

I agree with most of the reasons above. While woking/living in Milan I was amazed that 30%-40% of the people arrived by scooter - the riders hit all demographics. Their reasons for the scooter were the usual: cost to buy, cost to run/insure....but most importantly it was faster in traffic by a large magin. Due to the fact that lane splitting/filtering is legal (or at least ignored) you commute tim would be literally 50% if not more than in a car or public transit.

My commute from one of the milan suburbs to my house in a car took 45 minutes to 1 hour....it was 11km!!! The congestion is unimaginable to most americans. (There was no public transit between the 2 burbs)... the same exact cummute on a scooter was 20 minutes - at most - all due to filtering at ques and traffic lights.

Now my cummute here in the philly burbs is less than 8 miles, 7 of which is actually nice suburban/rual roads through some very very high end real estate (Gladwyne)...but the last mile is very congested at rush hour. I can literally spend more time in that first/last mile than I do in the remaining 7 miles. If I could legally/resonsibly lane split through that congestion my commute could go down by half.

I think that if more states allowed responsible filtering or lans splitting scooters would be come a lot more popular for those is congested areas

I think Al said it well when he compared the European love affair with 2 wheels to the US love affari with 4 post WW2.

Motorcycles have been huge here in the US, but largly inspired by returning servicemen after WW2 (and of course that also spawned the outlaw biker image which hurt the ability of the 2 wheeler to be widely accepted).

To build on top of that a bit, up until recently there were not many places to buy a scooter in the US. Even fewer repair shops. So even if you wanted one it was hard to get and even harder to get work done on it.

Have you tried to have your scoot towed? How many threads/posts are there about the closest shops being 100 miles away.

Our love affair with scooters (and PTWs in general) is just begining en masse. Eventually, with wide acceptance in urban areas, an abundance of shops/dealers, etc maybe we can begin to see some similarities to Europe in metropolitan areas. But I don't think well ever see it throughout the country due to the ever growing love of cars...

Robardin-

I would suggest you read up on the licensing procedures in Europe. It's a graduated process. Can't just walk in and take a written and a road test and receive an unlimited motorcycle license as in most of the US.

Sallad-

As to motorcycles being "huge" in the US, the NTSB reports about 6 million PTWs registered in the US. That's about 1 per 50 persons, or 1/3 to 1/4 the per capita ownership in Europe. The vast majority of PTWs in the US have always been leisure vehicles rather than primary commute/transportation vehicles. That is beginning to change, but not at a rapid rate.

In the late 50's and early 60's, Vespas were not unusual commuter vehicles in NYC. Back then, the City had a 40-45 max speed on most highways (Hutch, Bronx River, Henry Hudson, FDR Drive, Cross Island, Belt, etc). Thus, you could safely commute on a Vespa. I remember numerous women riding Vespas on FDR Drive during that time. I could take the Hutch to Bruckner Blvd (not Expwy) to the TriBorough to FDR Drive and downtown without worrying about driving a 40 mph high cruise scoot. I lived in Pelham Manor, and could get on the Hutch where the speed limit dropped to 40 mph upon entering NYC. Or go over the Whitestone to see my friends in Queens. It was doable at the speeds and traffic densities of those days. It would be a hell of a lot more difficult today on a VNB.

Al

I'm not sure if this is one of those things that is standardized at the EU level, but in France a regular driver's license automatically authorizes you to ride a two-wheeler up to 125cc. After that there are at least two more steps in the process as the engine size increases, each requiring expensive and time consuming training and testing. In France, however, this is largely due to some very powerful lobbying on the part of driving schools, of which there are thousands and thousands more than there should be; a simple observation of traffic in any French city makes it abundantly clear that all the extra training drivers and "motards" are forced to take in no way increases road safety! I am amazed at how 10X more training and testing, both on and off the road, can create drivers that are 10X more careless...

I'd second that. Thanks to Al, too, for the insightful posts.
Great thread!

And, as Al said, the Vespa is sexy. Was then, still is. 8)

--Deborah

Interesting comment; one that reminded me of a thread on the City-Data forum in which a number of Chicagoans were complaining that their tax dollars were going to support the rural areas of Illinois. As heavily as that state taxes its citizens (one reason my wife and I decided to decline a job offer there some years ago), it appears to me as if the REAL problem here is that there just aren't enough dollars to go around.

BTW a utility scooter designed for off road use would make tending fences easy as cupcake.

erm-ham! first pic by moi, ta very much!
(that was in Trieste, Italy)
much love

Rex,

After living here for a few years, there are some things that are fundementally different here than the US. How you define efficiency is of utmost importance. One example is shopping and refridgerator sizes in Europe cause shopping to be a near daily activity, and while you can find a super market, you generally go to several different types of shops (all within a mile - usually less) for the food you need. In the US, you pull into the Safeway parking lot with the SUV, buy a week to a months worth of groceries and put them in you 28 cubic foot refridgerator. Both are effeicient in different ways - I would hesitate to say one is right and one is wrong, but they are completely different processes.

To your question, the US as a country grew up/came of age with the car, and aside from our ealiest east coast cities, the car was factored in to street size, parking etc. And in the east coast cities, accomodations have been made.

In the little town I live in south of Heidleberg we have houses from the 16 and 17th centuries still standing and in use. Street width (aside from major highways) is narrow, and frequently 1 to 1 1/2 lanes wide. Parking is generally non existant and frequently involves straddling a curb and 1/2 the side walk. Cars are a PITA to drive and park. Scooters however, are very easy to use and park.

Also, even in the little towns you have good mass transit systems - as Aviator pointed out, a function of rebuilding for the most good for the most people after WWII, so you ride a bike, walk or scooter to a train station, and you're off (unless like me you take the 12 mile detour through the mountains to get home from my 5 mile commute).

Scooters make more sense in Europe as a utilitarian vehicle, whereas in the US they are more of a hobby vehicle, and likely will remain in that category - those of us who choose to use them as our primary transportation not withstanding.

Hope that helps,
Coach

In the picture above, notice scooters on both sides of a one lane road. This is common here, not atypical.

I use my commuter scooter now far more often than I do the car. I am seeing more scooters on my rides to and from work as the weeks go on - more motorcycles too. I've seen more motorcycles at my company's parking lot; people that have them for "leisure" but realized they could save $ on gas by using them more often. I do think, from what I see daily, that the number of PTW on the road is increasing in San Diego.

I think that when drivers begin to see more scooters on the road, they start to think of it as a more viable option. Gas was $4.50 several months ago but has dropped to around $3 now. I don't get as many people asking me about the scooter (mpg, cost, etc...), but I still get some.

so... we just need to all scoot more often! I may head out for a ride right now

I agree. When I said "huge" I meant in the context of motorcycles being in the general conscious. I think scooters have only recently become an option where as, I feel (and it could just be me), that until very recently it was either car or motorcycle with no middle ground.

We are definitely far beyond other areas in the world when it comes to ownership and pleasure/daily use, but I think the general perception of PTWs in this country is shifting. The pleasure riders will always be there but I think people are beginning to see the value in PTWs as daily riders.

It will probably take a long time and never quite meet the levels of other countries, but hey, one step at a time right? Every little bit further helps. Right?

Roma

ET gone home.

+1

Wow, people on the internet actually exists!! Just kidding Thanks for unofficially allowing me to use your pic (off of Flickr, I think) Threads are much better with pics, ya know?

True enough...when there isn't a transit strike on, which happens more often than people unfamiliar with French 'politics' would ever believe. It is barely an exaggeration to say that something somewhere in this country is always on strike, and public transit is by far the most common.

In a recent example unrelated to PUBLIC transit, I spent Sunday night in the Amsterdam airport, jet-lagged after a 12-hour flight from Osaka, because the pilots of Air France are not happy with their retirement age. The next day they put me on a KLM flight to Geneva, from which I then had to take a bus to Lyon. Then they lost my luggage because the AF people couldn't get it to the KLM people during the 18-hour wait. Too busy not unloading all the baggage from all the canceled flights, I guess.

This sort of thing happens all the time here. One more reason why I recently ordered a Vespa: it will never go on strike . Driving during a transit strike in a major French city is unimaginably awful. Going by all the unmoving cars on my bike, however, is liberating, as I imagine scootering past them will be as well (everybody 'filters' here, to the point where it is unexpected--and thus dangerous--not to).

Unsure of law in rest of Europe but using a mobile phone to make or receive a call, or to text is illegal in the UK whilst driving.

Also, for 5 long years after the end of WWII petrol was rationed in Britain and was a luxury that most folk didn't need anyway.

Maybe David Beckham could sign a bazillion dollar deal with Vespa to try to pump up scooters in the states!!! It worked for "football!" Oh, wait! It didn't. Damn!

Maybe the real reason he's moving to Milan?? A secret deal to relaunch Lambretta

Ah Ha!

Maybe GM should go bankrupt and then turn around and make scooters until they can figure out how to make hybrid/green cars. It would be sad if people would choose an asian POS versus a new GM scooter?

The last time my scooter club was interviewed by a local publication, I mentioned that only a few of us actually commuted all year round. To my surprise, a lot of the newer members enthusiastically stated that they would also be commuting year round.

It is true that we may have to suffer the cage on some days due to snow and ice, but in the majority of the North East USA, the quality of road maintenance is reasonable enough to ride 2/3 wheels the majority of days through the winter.

I have a 60 mile round trip to work every day. Riding like this does take effort. Its funny... my real propblem is the time it takes to gear up in the morning. That decides my riding fate. I overslept this morning and just didn't have enough time to gear up or I'd have been late.

A couple of things need to happen before 2 wheeled ridership really takes off:

1) gas needs to go up. Say tax it (at least petrol based not alternative) at 100% so we are back to $4/gal. Use the tax money for all of the spending the govt. is doing....
2) allow lane splitting at intersections/grid lock if not allowable at speed
3) refine parking laws/tow to be more clear
4) raise the car driving age and lower the 50cc scooter age (say 18 and 15). Also have a tiered system for over 50cc but under 250cc and then 250cc up.

You'd see a big shift.

Seth

Also...

- Not everyone could afford a car, so they got scooters or mopeds, cheaper and more flexible than motorcycles.

- Vespas nowdays are considered wimpy, but in europe they were the equivalent of hot road culture here.

- Don't forget that until recently there were not as many scooters around, or better to say that the moped were kings.
For every vespa you would see 10++ moped (look at piaggio Ciao, Boxer, Si). The most popular Scoters were Vespa 50 cc, then 125, much much fewer 150 and 200.
The is because you could drive a 50 cc w/o insurance, license, no plate and 14 y.o.

- Freedom: that is what is missing here. Can't split lane, stay in column, don't park here, be careful of the SUV runs you over.... you get the picture, driving a two well is about feeling free and having fun, US laws and other drivers make it less relaxing than driving a car.

Scooter in US will have a faster response if there was parking and splitting lane.

Same here (France): it is, oddly, one of the rare French laws actually enforced by the police. It is not uncommon to see a group of cops standing at an intersection busting people for using their phones and not wearing seatbelts, all the while ignoring red light running, massively stupid gridlocking, parking on the sidewalk and driving the wrong way--sometimes in reverse--on one way streets. They're either extremely lazy or extremely focused, depending on who you listen to .