Modern Vespa

Heh, we differ greatly on this. I did that when I was 20 - went to Korea and screwed around for 2 years (I'm adopted from Korea - hows that for self-reflection/identity finding/etc?) I would shoot myself if I still had this need to "find myself" at 30. TIME TO GROW UP, right? No need for approval! Its like a cop who just had a kid, suddenly wondering if his job is too dangerous, since he has a kid now that depends on him. He loves the job, and would never quite, but is struggling a bit with the new dillemma. I love my "job" (riding) like the rest of you, and don't plan to give it up, but want some advice on how you all rationalize the decision to keep going to "work" (IE: Riding). Does that make sense? I have cop friends who have gone through this (new family), and the more senior/experienced officers have been invaluable in giving them perspective on how to rationalize the job and the dangers that come with it, while taking into account family. The advice I get from most of you - "Grow a pair", "if you're scared, don't ride". That's like the senior officer telling the cop with a new baby - Grow some nutz, stop being a wimp. Not really deep insight right? Again, not looking for approval - only advice. And I really do get a kick out of you thinking I'm arrogant. I wondered how people would think of the word "irresponsible" in the thread topic. Obviously it, and this whole perspective has ticked a nerve with some. I never advocated this is the right way - it is MY way of thinking, and thus I argue my point. While I am starting to think the other perspective is a bit "irresponsible", it is what it is - my opinion, and I am not the pope or some devine spirit. Grow some thicker skin - people do think differently. Sigh, no - I am not looking for admiration or attention or praise. I could really care less what people think of me. Personality is lost in these forums - if you knew me, I'm sure you would think differently. Perhaps we'll meet up for a ride at some point! You are very mistaken on what I was looking for. I'm not debating ride or not to ride, today or tomorrow. This is big picture thinking. I WILL ride today, tomorrow, next week. But I'm beginning to grasp some other factors that have me CONCERNED. How do others work through these concerns? By being an adult? I think I'm being mature by simply putting my concerns out there. Thanks. This is the kind of advice I get when I ask my friends what I should buy - an XBOX 360 or a PS2. I think this issue is a bit deeper than that.

I'm 68 and retired. I have 45 credits beyond my Masters degree so I don't think I can be considered uneducated. I love riding and as you will learn, the older you get, the less you care what people think about you. Most of the people who would criticize scooter riders are jealous that they can't get a scoot and enjoy the thrill. If they don't like it they can curl up with a nice novel and vegetate. Enjoy life while you can. I'm a cancer survivor and live each day as it comes. Whether you are 30 or 70, be a man, make your own choices! Some people live drab lives. They hate to see others having a great time and criticize them. Feel sorry for them and do your thing.

Yes, I take the same approach - Toreador Pants. That is a tough question and an extension of my original post - would I ride if I had kids (which hopefully will happen sometime!)? Basically, would you ride if more people were dependent on you? Thats the jist of this thread. I love riding....but its a tough one.

I can say for sure - I enjoy being a knuckleheaded "young adult". I can still act relatively stupid and "irresponsible" (not just as it relates to scooting ), but how will I have to change when I get older? I'm not sure.

I agreed with this; jeez buddy, you are only 30-something. If you consider 30-something "too old" for scootering, wow...

Well I'm not gonna make a judgement statement on you, but--you have A LOT of time to be "old" ...when you are in fact old. 30 isn't too old for anything, except prom. Jeez, you're 30.

(I sound like coach Mike Gundy and his "I'm 40!" rant)

Heh, sorry - I didn't mean to say 30 is "old"! I'm just starting to feel "not like a kid" anymore, thus more responsabilities in life. Thats all i was referring to!

By the way, isn't 40 the new 20?

I had enough of the Socratic method in law school. It's overrated as a rhetorical device.

Anyway, I'm in my 40s. I own my own business and I'm fully resposnsible for the support of my wife and child, and I have many older relative who may someday rely on me. I ride just about every day, with my wife's blessing, and that's after getting hit by a car with her on the back (and she still rides with me). So obviously I'm fully aware of the risk that my child could have been left an orphan, yet I continue to ride despite the fact that something like that could happen again.

I have to admit that I haven't read every post here, so I don't know if this dialogue is motivated by a real-world concern of yours or if it is just what-if pondering on your part, but to me the obvious answer is that you problably shouldn't ride. But you have to accept that others think differently than you, and they don't have to justify it to you.

Brendan

Not everyone walks the same path, and not everyone has a chance to "find themselves" before 30. Those sorts of personal things are different for everybody. I for one believe that that sort of "finding myself" is never ending, at least for myself. If I am not searching for myself, then I'm not having experiences and I am not growing, which means I am practically dead at that point. There is always room for reflection and growth, no matter how old someone is. I shudder to think that there is supposed to be some sort of "magic age" where that is supposed to stop.

You say you want to know how people deal with those concerns, and I think the many responses saying "I do it because I love it and it makes me feel good and there are a lot of other things I have to worry about." is a valid reason for dealing with those concerns. Don't think about it, be as safe as you can when you are out there and enjoy yourself. I think that is a pretty damn good way to deal with those concerns.

like roadbum, i was almost whisked into the great beyond before my time, as a result of a condition that was totally random, and completely unrelated to my lifestyle ('primary hyperaldosteronism', for those who are interested - pushes your blood pressure up to exploding-head-movie levels. according to my doctor it's a miracle i wasn't turned into a carrot by a stroke). we face risks every day from the second we're shoved out of the womb. we like to think we can mitigate against these risks, but the reality is that we don't have nearly as much control as we'd like to think. the perils involved in simply being alive are part of what makes life so exciting.

wangta, i admire your sense of responsibility towards your loved ones. but if they really love you (i mean, really love you - in an unselfish, want-the-best-for-you kind of way), they'll want you to live your life as you wish, and they'll want you to be happy and fulfilled, even if there are some risks involved. anything else is just plain selfish. of course there are limits to this kind of thinking - if any kid of mine announced that they wanted to start shooting heroin because it made them happy, i'd have them in counseling before they knew what hit them. that's the sort of self-destructive behaviour that requires intervention. scooter riding isn't, and if it makes you happy, and reduces your stress levels, and enriches your life (all of which it's done for me) then you should carry on doing it without feeling guilty about it.

Wangta, the distortion that you're basing your judgment on is that choosing a scooter life is so closely linked to the penalties of failure that it can be deemed a "childish act" or a "selfish act" as if doing so directly equates to an inability to support your family. i can think of quite a few examples where that is the case. For example. If we were discussing a hobby of smoking crack cocaine...I think it is pretty clear that that lifestyle is so closely related to the inability to support your family that it is a selfish act.

I can't *honestly* say that the last 2 decades of scooting have taken away from my ability to support my family. Does that assure me of another two decades of safety? Of course not. But to classify the act as "childish" is in my opinion is a gross hyperbole of the risks faced, whether it was meant to be inflammatory or not. From my perspective, I look at these risks, and I can honestly say that the thought that goes through my head is...."Wangta...you ain't seen nothing..."

The comment about "growing a pair" wasn't meant to be pejorative. It is simply the briefest way to encapsulate the gist of the decision here, and frankly, the terms I use with myself. You either have courage to accept the risk, or you don't. (some would argue the courage is actually foolishness, and it's definitely a gray line).

And of course, the fact that we're having this conversation about something as rote as scootering--something that has been studied for years, even regulated--says something about what the general public deems is the appropriate risk to assign to it. We're not talking about something really undefined and risky. We're not talking about kite boarding, or base jumping, or free climbing. We're talking about scootering. So...where does scootering lie on the spectrum of stupidity and selfishness? Does it 100% absolutely lead to failed marriages and an inability to live up to your commitments? Does it "probably" lead to failed marriages and an inability to live up to your commitments? Ok...how about 10% chance? 1%? 0.01%? When does it cross over into your realm of "not childish" in your head, bcs I'm kinda curious. Now remember...the question isn't about accidents. Having an accident is not absolutely the end of your productive life. It's about the probability of whether you will be incapacitated to the extent that you can't support your family. Where do you peg that probability?

It's all about the envelope. When we were children, our parents gave us an envelope within which we were allowed to live. There were limits to what we could and couldn't do and the envelope they provided us with kept us contained and protected. As long as we stayed in the envelope, we had a good balance of childhood freedom and loving supervision.

As we got older, the envelope expanded to accommodate our growth and view of the world. As it grew, a few perils slipped in but not many that we couldn't handle within the confines of the envelope.

Upon reaching adulthood, we were given control of our own envelope, which had increased in size to the point we almost didn't know it was there. Still, life was easiest and most protected if we stayed within that envelope. Soon, we realized that the envelope was actually made up of what our parents knew from their life experiences, fears and judgments. What made it increase in size was our own life experiences which included risks, failures and successes. It was the best combination of what we knew, what we would learn and what was acceptable in the social arena.

There comes a time in life when we might want to kick the flap open and venture anew. It is times like that when we are best equipped to operate without restraints. Go with your vision.

Wangta,
You asked a question and people gave you their answers, yet you argue every answer given.
From reading your posts, these questions are better taken up with your pastor/priest/coven leader, wife or drinking buddy, not strangers on the net.
For you, riding is fun or gas saving or maybe good for the enviroment..I dont know..
For me, bikes are part of my self-identity.. they are part of what makes me...me.
So if my wife says "the bikes go or I go", I'll have to buy her some new suitcases. She married a guy with bikes, she'll burry a guy with bikes.
(and yes, she is right beside me as I type)
Both of my kids ride dirtbikes, skateboard, mountain bike and the oldest back country skiis..all very dangerous. they also both have P200"s waiting for them to get their bike licence's.

What happens if they get hurt? or die doing what they love? who will look after me when I get old?...I dont know...and I would not ask faceless people on the net for answers.

Do what's best for YOU, I'll do what's best for ME.

Excellent philosophy of life. Thanks.

Last week you asked about scooters being gay and this week you're asking about old peoples' riding ability. I'm expecting a question about women drivers/riders next week. Maybe people of some race or other the week after?

Checking my insurance premiums, I note that people under 25 pay more. There is a reason for this. (And there is also a male skew to that little problem, but all under 25 drivers have to cough up).

You've also made the assumption that all 'old' people have dependents. Some people design their lives differently. That was covered off quite well in the gay thread.

I'm not entirely sure where you are coming from with some of this stuff, I have to say.

Sean s - good point, this is the internet. But I've been posting here since 2006 - I feel like I know some of these guys a bit better than that. I've even met some of them on rides, all good folks. So its not like I'm on match.com, putting this in my profile!

Argue/debate - that is a fine line right? I like to think its debating. I have not been offended by anyone's comments here, and I hope it is the same the other way around.

Heh, nice way to dig into my post history! I hope you don't have a warped picture of me based solely on my previous two weeks posts. I assure you, my other 1000 posts are pretty drab and uneventful. Even if - I'm not sure what you're getting at? Yes, I'm an intellectually curious person by nature. Is that bad? And to correct you, I didn't ask about scooters being gay - I asked about the stereotype of people who ride scooters being gay (not ture, but people think it!). Uh, don't get this point either? I'm 28. All "grown" up I suppose Its called LIFE and noticing things around me as things change/I change. Maybe you're right, last couple month I've experienced some random stuff that made me think deeper about some issues. Again, is that bad?

To someone else's point about talking about this with internet friends - I do talk about this with my friends/family. However, I get a somewhat biased view from them since none of them ride scooters/motorcycles. Here is where I get the MV view, the scooterists view - which as you imagine, is very very different.

Or, they are too fearful of the act of two-wheeled motoring and won't let themselves ride one.

You're right Genie - my family would never want to hold me back from me doing what I really want to do and love. I guess it's more a personal responsability I feel I have. It really is a tough issue for me, I'm not sure where or how I developed this weird perspective. This "guilt" you speak of, doesn't only extend to scooters - I have aspirations to work abroad post graduation, and I struggle to think if thats a good move given the situation. Arguments to do it: Only live once, no strings, no wife/kids, etc. Seems like a no brainer, yet its not so easy. Perhaps its a cultural thing? Koreans do think like this - strong sense of responsability to take care of parents. Many actually have their parents move in with them after marriage (weird thought huh?).

No Wangta - I note your numerous questions every day. But there does seem to be a pattern with your 'broader issues' questions. Under 25 year olds have more accidents, based on their inexperience and higher risk-taking. That you are 28 surprises me, I had you pegged much, much younger. You seem to have a narrow world view. That is where I am coming from. Maybe you should join some philosophical/social forums. Or even discussion groups with real people in the room around you. I think that might be a great thing for you, now that you are opening up your eyes to broader perspectives. Yes. And we are giving it to you - from our multiple perspectives, as politely as the rules of this forum allow us to.

Two posts...doesn't equate to a pattern to me. But whatevs. Hah, I love your slight disses. Always a pleasure to read. Thank you...I guess? There's another one! Do you realize how these read? I think you do and just don't care! This question related to scooters...if it bores/frusterates you, you could always just ignore it. I've found this quite helpful. Nice, another zinger!

Just a couple of thoughts.

Life really should be about more than simple service to others. Service to others is a good and noble thing, but for most of us there needs to be - there should be - a place for the things we love that make us who we are.

A small example: my husband's uncle Jim was a pilot. He came back from the dangers of flying missions in WW2 to become a commercial pilot. Jim loved flying, loved every aspect of it. He was one of those fortunate few who got to make a good living doing something he truly loved.

However his wife was of another mind. She thought flying was dangerous, and she didn't like it one bit if he was gone overnight. She nagged him to give it up, and finally insisted she would leave if he didn't and take his children with her. So he gave up being a pilot and became an air traffic controller. He traded the thing he loved for a high-stress, joyless job just to make his wife happy. I don't believe anybody was very happy after that, he because he hated his job, his wife because I don't think anything would have made her happy.

Sure, he made the choice. And perhaps it would have been a shade different if he'd arrived at that decision because he truly felt that flying was unsafe and irresponsible...but of course he didn't. The career change killed his joy in life. Sure he was there every day for his wife and children. In body.

So would it have been selfish for him to have insisted on continuing as a pilot?

I'm going to have to say no. That's my opinion. But I'm a lot older than you are and I've seen the results - fast forward 30 years - of people giving up the things that make them alive, that make them the people they are. I've seen the results of 30 years of living death, and like the line out of Rocky: "it's a worser life."

Only you can decide if your responsibilities mean, that for you, it's time to give up riding. But I strongly disagree with the attitude that someone who has responsibilities and keeps riding is selfish.

My husband has a nice way of characterizing it. When someone tells him it's not safe to ride his motorcycle he says: What should I do then? Spend my money on better locks for the door and sit inside, waiting to die?

And you can die in so many ways. The 42 year old across the street dropped dead of a heart attack. Was it irresponsible of him to hold the high-pressure but highly remunerative job that allowed his family so many creature comforts? Who know, maybe he would have died at 42 if he was a street sweeper, but he's just as dead.

Another thought: a woman I know just turned 40 and would love to get married, but she won't date anybody more than 5 years older than herself because she "doesn't want to be a nurse to some old guy." How foolish! That's just a random guess about how someone's life could play out when you've not even met the person yet. And if you have 5 or 10 or 15 glorious years and some bad ones...would that be a "bad deal"? What if he outlives her? What if he just dies in his sleep at 90? And who say's she'd be the nurse? Another friend whose younger wife suffered an aneurism is the one who gets to play nurse.

Life is a crap shoot! It's laughing, random fate. I am a strong believer in taking only "acceptable" risks - so I don't skydive because that's not acceptable to me and I wear Toreador Pants and ride sensibly because I like my skin and bones in original condition - but I reject the idea that it's selfish to keep on living for myself too, not only for those around me.

Only you can make your decision. It is yours, and yours alone. But don't bring age into it! That's not the concern facing you, it's your perceptions of what you need to do. Not only can none of us make the decision for you, you're also probably posing the question to the wrong forum. We ride. We enjoy it. And we're not giving it up. (If my balance starts to go, I'll get an MP3!)

My two cents! And good luck.

One more thought, after looking at posts that came in while I was drafting mine: Then do it. You say you are 28. Just how old are your parents? I'm thinking they're almost certainly younger than I am, and I note that often young people have a pretty skewed impression of just how doddering their parents are.

I work with a delightful young man from India. A few years ago his mother was coming for a visit, and he was fretting over how she would manage, how she would get around, what she would do.

Oh, by the way, his mom spoke perfect English, had lived abroad for quite a few years before returning to India and had traveled extensively. And he lived in downtown San Francisco, with tons of things to see and do within safe walking distance.

To hear him talk, his mother was some doddering, elderly woman, so I finally asked just how old his mom was. Guess what. Yep! She was younger than I was. He had no clue.

So I'm guessing your folks aren't really, really ancient, and could probably manage just fine for a couple of years if you lived abroad.

Again, responsibility is a good thing. I help out with my mom. But then she's 80 now. When she was my age she really didn't need my help.

Thanks everyone - I have read all of your posts and valued your input.

I get the sense this topic or the way I proposed/argued/debated it hits a nerve for some and I obviously want to avoid offending people.

Mod - could you nuke this?

Wangta01: To get this "nuked" you have to use the exclamation point button

But they may refuse to act unless you cite a personal attack or something


About your original post, sounds like you should set some boundaries
and stop worrying so much about what other people think

You could die in a scooter accident... but you could also die from a heart attack, especially if you are under too much stress

These things are not completely under your control
I suggest just taking responsibility for your actions each day, as you go through life
The rest is in a divine deity's hands

Ah, thanks. I was wondering what that button was used for.

This has nothing to do with other's perception of me, but blah - I'm tired of trying to explain myself again. Perhaps I did a poor job of communicating the first go round.

Wangta01: Do what you must, but for all its fractiousness some good ideas were exchanged in this thread. I appreciate you have a difficult personal decision to make. The "problem" comes when you ask for input.

Ride safe while you continue to ride, and do what's best for you.

Wow! I have a 4 year old little girl and I ride my scooter all the time! My husband rides his harley as well! We take weekend trips every now and then to Little Sahara (in oklahoma, look it up!) to ride dune buggys and 4-wheelers and have a good time! If you're going to stop doing the things you enjoy after you have kids then you will just end up resenting your children! PLUS if your worried about something happening to you and your family being left alone then maybe you should'nt leave the house... EVER, because you could get into a car accident, or trip on a curb and break you neck!
I think Im a happier person and my marriage is awesome because we still have fun which inturn makes my daughter happier!

Sounds I should share the latest thing I've learned on MV--you don't need to keep explaining yourself again and again

It doesn't matter if some of the people who've read your posts (sometimes very quickly and possibly with cocktail in hand)
didn't understand your question

That's the great thing about having so many MVers,
the whole thread will be off the page and, for most purposes, completely gone by tomorrow

Wow, this is a scootering question of epic philosophical proportions which probably requires a couple thousand more pages to cover all the bases.

Considering infinite size of the universe, our place being somewhere between infinite history and infinite future, our lives are meaningless no matter how you justify it.

Like most of us, personally we're pretty self important. We grow up fearing our own demise, mourning the loss of those we hold dear, and even feel sorrow for the death of complete strangers.

As we have families who depend on us, there is responsibility to them (perhaps more then those without). But the fact is everyone dies eventually. Most people will time before their time, whatever that means. And the fact is, life goes on. Their dependence on you is exaggerated. Widows and orphans continue on as people tend to do, res decorus ad nauseam.

Scooter riding is a dangerous preoccupation, but you can limit your exposure to dangers with education and gear. But you can't live life in bubblewrap. This question is really no different then the Toreador Pants vs ABATE. You personally have to weigh the risks, the benefits, your sanity, your safety, your fun your freedom, etc. for yourself.

Here goes with a few of my thoughts. I've learned over the years that it's not usually the things YOU THINK will get you it's the REST of the things that will get you. Statistics are numbers and while they can give you a general idea about something it doesn't mean you will fall into the nice little parameters they set for you. Life's about living,enjoying and yes you can get killed in a car going slow. If it happens to be your turn. I'm not going to bore you with my stories. However their were many times i SHOULD of died but it's those close calls when i was just being careful that tend to make me go HUH. Get life insurance so your family will be covered. You should do that anyway even if you don't ride a scooter. Maybe don't freeway ride if that's bothering you but still ride because i will guarantee you there will be a day when you wished you had. Maybe you don't enjoy riding. That's ok just stop. We are not going to be any better at solving your problem than your family since most of us are biased in the opposite way. Lastly if you over analyze things you will drive yourself crazy. Then your family will wish you had kept the scooter Good luck

yea. don't over-analyze

My aren't we in a fun mood today SADIE Glad i could make your day

yea. pretty much Judy.
Hope you had a great trip to NY I missed you.
Must have been nice to get back to paradise eh?

Wan...
I agree with you on some levels...when I see people who have children doing high risk extreme sports...especially things like free climbing, etc. I do think they have a responsibility to their families. But I do not feel riding a scooter is an extreme risk sport...no more than driving my car in the city or on our freeways. Of course I am a conservative driver. I don't push the limit on my driving skills.

If (forbid) something does happen to me I want my family to remember that I was outgoing, happy and sought my passions in life. They respect my dignity of risk. They also see me as a happy person. I'm not a martyr. I can't take care of my family if I don't' take care of myself first. I think they would rather I take a ride on my scooter than have me at work 15 hours a day.

Good luck on life. It's not a dress rehearsal...go out and live it!!

If you can ride safely at whatever age...more power to you.

All lives, well most...are important regardless of what job they hold, how many family members they have...

Ride safe and be smart..enjoy it! Toreador Pants

"I just hope that you're never in a position where you depend on people, and something bad happens to them due to an arguably questionable decision on their part. You can say now - "that's life" and that everything would be fine, but the fact is that you never know. Ride safe"
------------- -------------- --------------------- -----------------

Y'know at 70 years of age I would've had to have lived my life in a box (or a cage?) -in order for me to not have experienced any of the pains of living you're so easily assuming I've never had...

There are friends and relatives of mine who have done great (and sometimes fatal) damage to themselves thru "arguably questionable decisions on their part". If I had accepted the responsibility for every problem the people around me that I loved had due to their own carelessness (and addictions), there would not be very much of me left by now...

I am not the center of everyone's universe. No matter how much I love them, most times I need to just let go and accept that I cannot fix their problems. Because when I recognize that I am indeed not God, and cannot 'fix everything' for everyone else, and that I cannot guarantee complete safety for everyone either (including myself), then I am available to myself and to many others in much more important and loving ways....

I think you are indeed very young. -Also very brash, and very uninformed yet in your concepts. I just hope you don't drive yourself nuts trying to control others' lives, what with all their millions of different ways of living and being!
Namaste,

You asked for this in your gay scooters post too.

Umm...yes. That was the point.

It is not a question of age or responsibility. We all make the choices that work for us. If this was a troll to fire up emotion, it worked. If it was a sincere question that might effect your future decisions, I have to say quit riding right now. While you are at it, lock your kids in the house until it is safe to let them out. Buy a Volvo Safetymobile. Live a long safe regret filled life. Be sure to check in here to see what your life could have been.

Irresponsible? Meaning not carrying sufficient insurance in case of serious illness or death? That's irresponsible.
Teaching your children that life is a grey existence of pleasures denied? Poor kids. That's irresponsible.
Scooter riding isn't.


Regards
Harvey

Then honestly, just don't read my posts? Is it that hard? Not sure your zingers are really value added. Entertaining though.