Modern Vespa

i live in a suburb of toledo, ohio and drive 30 minutes each way to work. i decided to stop complaining about our dependence on foreign oil and take a bullet for the team--bought a vespa and sold my minivan. this was with great sacrifice because the commute is already becoming bone chilling cold in the morning and it's only october.

well guess what, the cost of a barrel of oil has dropped like the stock market and people are already starting to think short term--buying suv's. don't believe me? i just read an article on msnbc that as car sales took a dive last month suv sales were actually up. i normally consider myself conservative but on foreign oil i think we need to take drastic/radical steps and tax the f@ck out of gas. not diesel, just gas. when are american's going to wake up? i just finished reading a previous post about toll roads in philadelphia raising their fees for two wheel vehicles to that of four wheeled-- makes my blood boil.

is this truly the greatest county? how many people that say it is have never stepped foot on foreign soil? i seriously need to move my family out of here. oh, and by the way i served my country proudly for 12 years so don't question my patriotism!

tax the f@ck out of gasoline---yeah i said it! BAM how do you like me now?

We're neighbors..I live just over the line in Erie.

Oh, you should know, I'm sure some here will agree with you about taxing gas more...but not all of us. I built SUV's for 11 years, and now I help build pickups...it's my job, how I provide for my family..not everyone wants an SUV, but remember, this is America so we can drive what we want.

i respect your opinion however, wouldn't it make more sense for your company to manufacture/focus on providing the most fuel efficient vehicles--lead and not follow the trends. that way when oil is back up to $4 a gallon you don't get laid off as everyone begins purchasing foreign? and the only way that happens is if the consumer consistently suffers at the gas pump.

Well, I work for Ford and that is exactly what we are doing..retooling plants to build more fuel efficient vehicles, per customer demand. I happen to be at an F150 plant, but I hear that we will be gaining another product soon.

BTW, when you said foreign I naturally figured Toyota...have you noticed how truck/SUV/crossover heavy their product lineup is? Sure they have the Prius, but I fail to see how a Tundra or Sequoia or FJ is a more environmentally friendly vehicle than something similar from Ford..let alone the hybrid large SUV's from GM.

Also, Perrysburg is a nice area

whoops

I'm happy the price of oil is down. I hope it falls further.

[quote="JLB"]I'm happy the price of oil is down. I hope it falls further.[/quote

+1
But not a popular sentiment here.
I think many who have purchased scooters, especially recently expected as part of the purchase price the right to gloat about how much they were saving in gas.

[quote="aldo"] I own a Suburban, and would love to buy another one. It tows my toys, and is great on trips. I put about 8,000 miles a year on it.

I also own a Vespa GTS that gets 70 mpg, a Piaggio LT150 that gets about the same, another Honda scooter that gets close to 100 mpg. I bought my scooters because they are fun, not because they got good mileage.

For cars, I drive a 2008 Accord V-6 that gets 29 mpg on the highway, and a 1997 Honda Civic HX (my second one) that gets about 44 mpg. It looks like every other Civic, and I don't need to pose to impress anyone about being "eco-friendly".

I drive what I want, and could care less what anyone else thinks of my choices. It's a free country.

so it's my hubris that made me by a vespa--brag about how much i have saved in gas? seriously, if my decision was based on ego, it was only to say i was one of the first, of many, to make a change and reduce our dependence on foreign oil. sadly it appears the many to follow aspect will not happen. apparently i'm naive--i expected members of this forum to empathize with me and it appears i'm not of the popular opinion.

Just heard in the news today that OPEC is calling a meeting for Monday to "deal with the lack of oil demand" (I'm paraphrasing). Word is they're thinking about cutting output to match the "new" lower demand, especially if we're headed towards global recession.

I dealt with the Saudi Foreign Ministry in 1999 for almost a year (non-government job, Saudi worldwide "image" project). Straight from the Saudi rep's mouth at the time (and I paraphrase again):"Saudi Arabia knows that its oil supply is not infinite, and expects to reach the bottom of new Saudi oil resources in 6-10 years". That particular Saudi minister told me and several others on the project this information in 1999. By his estimate, next year, no more "new" oil in Saudi Arabia, and only reserves from that point on.

Maybe he was wrong, but no one in their right mind thinks oil supply is infinite, or will grow. Every new hole in the ground or the ocean floor to drill for oil is just feeble delay to the inevitable: not enough oil to meet the global demand. The Saudis, Venezuelans, Canadians etc. can either blow they're wad of oil and cash in sooner by selling oil cheap now or control the spigot to make it last as long as possible.

Which do you think they'll choose to do?

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Wow, that's about 3 years of free gas at $4 a gallon!

Tahoes have $6,000 rebates.

No wonder they are selling.

Brazil has new oil finds that nearly match Saudi Arabia.

Canada has enough oil in it's tar sands to last hundreds of years.

We have 300-400 years of coal, which can be turned into oil via the Fischer-Tropsch process (coal gasification).

The world has oil enough for hundreds of years, so enjoy your Vespa for the fun of riding it, but not to save the planet from a mythical oil shortage.

In general, the big trucks and SUVs that are for sale now are more efficient than older ones. I'm pretty sure my 2001 3/4 ton gets substantially worse mileage than some others available now with similar towing capacity. Had I not bought a Vespa recently, I might have been inclined to buy a new truck at the current fire sale prices.

Of course, some people buy SUVs because they need to haul a bunch of people and equipment into remote areas, like I did when I was a surveyor. We wouldn't have wanted an Escalade for that, but not all SUV are Escalades either.

Higher fuel costs might force commuters and casual drivers into smaller vehicles, but they would also increase the costs of everything that gets transported. Food would get more expensive, clothing, housing, everything. Or, to be more technically correct, more of a percentage of what we have available to spend would get diverted to fuel, and away from other things.

Would that sort of pain be worth the benefits to be gained? Just asking.

that's why i said gasoline and not diesel. i realize that's not the perfect solution but i suspect the majority of goods transported in this country are done so using diesel.

also, in response to whether or not the planet is running out of oil---i could care less. my point was that we need to ween ourselves away from foreign oil and no one posted anything stating that there are huge newly discovered deposits in america. not to mention the whole global warming thing.

what's going on? i'm totally floored with these responses. are all of the liberal tree huggers out partying tonight? doesn't anyone have my back?

But all those (except for Brazil maybe) are much more expensive (both economically and environmentally) to process. It's not that the days of oil are passed, it's that the days of cheap oil is past.

Still kind of shocked that SUV sales have recovered so quickly. From a manufacturers point of view I'd cash in on any demand at all. I bet they're not offering them on lease any more though.

So then everyone who could afford a new car would just switch to diesel. That's already happened in Europe. Last few BMWs and VWs I rented in Germany were all diesels. Just as opulent as the gas versions we have here, but got somewhat better mileage.

My dentist just picked up a new Mercedes diesel SUV. She didn't go looking for one, but her dealer gave her $10k off the sticker price to get the thing off his lot. The poor bastards that can't afford to buy a new car would just be screwed by expensive gas, while the dentists would get diesel SUVs, I guess.

I don't disgaree with your objective, I'm just not so sure your proposed solution would get you there. I think we need to wait and see what the last round of goverment regulations on cars and trucks will do before we go coming up with new ones. When those new CAFE standards go into effect, I'm sure the auto world will change. But I would never claim to be able to predict exactly how it will change.

I'd also have to say that it's getting wintery. Everyone still thinks that you HAVE to have a 4 wheel drive for the winter.

We have one, though we've owned it for quite a while and it's now 11 years old. But still works great.

Everyone's transportation needs are different. In my case, I live on a very large lot so I need a lot of landscaping supplies throughout the year. I can either pay for delivery each time I need something or I can own my own utility trailer and pick up these items myself. In order to pull a trailer full of heavy items, one needs something capable of pulling adequately. We own a four door Jeep Sahara which does the job nicely and also gives me plenty of room to take my dogs and grandchildren with us when we want to go somewhere with them. A car just won't cut the mustard for our needs. We also had a Mini "S" but sold it and bought a couple of Vespa's. Now, If I don't need the Jeep for something that requires more grunt or space, I drive the scooter for 90% of my errands and my wife does the same. You can't simply lump everybody into the same category for their transportation needs and uses.

Although it is amusing to watch the price of oil fall 50% while gas only falls 25%. Funny how it's a direct relationship on the upside, but not correlated on the down side...

I told people 6 months ago that it would be under $80 in time for the election, and they looked at me like I had 3 eyes. Don't worry- once the election is over, it will start climbing right back toward the stratosphere. Over $100 by New Years is my guess...

a.eckel, I believe this is the greatest country in the world proof is in our immigrants comming from other countries because the oppurtunities exist here like no where else in the world. The best part of our way of life is in the freedom of choice that we all take for granted. I'm sorry that you feel you must move your family out of the GREATEST PLACE ON EARTH but i guess the best is not for everyone. Good luck no matter what you decide to do.

I do! I think they should tax oil/gas highly and use the money to build mass transit networks. I know not everyone lives in a city where this will work, but it would sure help a lot in a lot of places. If you choose to drive a giant truck, live 50 miles from work, etc..., then you also choose to pay more for gas. (I know this doesn't apply to farmers, but there are a lot of folks who choose a remote lifestyle - aka my father [who bought a Prius ] and several co-workers.)

I have been riding scooters for 10+ years and it's never been a choice about gas prices to me, but about enjoyment. I also have a 2004 Honda Civic that gets 35+ mpg. Additionally, I walk, bike and take the bus whenever possible and try to combine trips, too.

Also, have not bought anything (knowingly) made in China for over a month and plan to continue to do so indefinitely. It's saving me a lot of money and keeping a lot of crap out of my house.

What this whole thing is about (the oil, the economy, mortgage crisis, etc), IMHO, is greed. Most people want everything all the time and as soon as possible (especially in the USA) - consumers, corporations (everyone). When we all can learn some patience, self control and caring (about others less fortunate and the environment) then maybe things will turn around. Until then, well, have fun in that Suburban!

I hardly ever rant, here...

IMHO Australia is the greatest place on earth!

We have had people sail half way around the world escaping poverty and war in little tinnies to get here.

Yeah, we are not perfect, but we do have reasonably good "free health" and welfare, and most do pretty well out of the Gummitt. Our "award wages" system means you can earn a reasonable sheckle or two - or if you land a job on a mine, a sheckle or three.

A eckel - you'd be welcome here. I for one won't question your "patriotism", your gender or your sexuality (even if you do ride a Vespa)

Although it is full of Kiwis - I reckon New Zealand is pretty close to equalling us here in Australia. Very Pretty, very freindly, and very close!

There is the concept/theory/research about sustainable oil, oil fields naturally replenishing themselves...
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38645

Not sure if knwoing oil will never run out will help any situation in any way, but it's interesting to consider against the OPEC strangle hold. If there re reserves in Canada, the US, Gulf of Mexico, etc that will in theory nee3ver run out, OPEC should be scared cause pretty soon we wont need them...


I'm jsut sort of rambling here, don't know how I really feel about it all. Taxes on gas pay for road/infrastructure. But if gas is cheaper maybe more people drive thereby off setting the loss in tax revenue. But then the green house gass thing.....

I just think there is no easy solution....
(like I said, rambling...)

Yup, Out on the town enjoying their "cheap" gas.

Hey, we got winter up here....I would like to ride all winter with my scoot, but between the potholes and the crazy cagers rediscovering their snow driving, I would be DOAS when the snow starts sticking...
That is when I grab the keys to my 4 wheel drive pickup....
I know some people ride scoots all winter, seen crazy bicyclist out in a blizzard, but I am not that brave!
It's not Sunny California everywhere!

I"m so glad I bought my GT years ago, and I bought it because parking sucks and I hate our public transportation system.

Immigrants comming from other countries?? What about all the Mexicans getting kicked out on their behinds because they didn't have enough money to begin with to buy their way into america? They work hard (jobs not too many others will take), and America says NO you can't work here. You can be an immigrant if you have enough money, or something the government wants. So with that in mind you most likely don't need the oppurtunities offered in America.

At least thats my take, and I am wrong sometimes (but don't tell my husband I admited to being wrong sometimes).

I bought my Vespa for a number of reasons. Gas money wasn't a major concern but it was "one" of several reasons for buying a scoot. Our gas prices exceeded $5.00 not too long ago and (in the past couple of weeks) has dropped to $4.50.

Having said that, my two main reasons for buying a Vespa were for ease of parking in our very congested downtown area but (if truth be told) I mostly bought it for fun! I have spent upwards of 30 minutes trying to find a place to park my Jeep Liberty in our small town center, which has too many buildings and not enough parking spots. The Vespa can basically be parked anywhere which will reduce my aggravation levels drastically ... once I finally get it on the road.

But really, I bought it so I could have a little fun. I, as another fellow mentioned above, am an avid gardener and am always picking up large quantities of top soil, manure, plants, etc ... so my SUV is a necessity.

My plan is to use the scoot all the time for quick errands into town, to visit friends or go to the beach ... or just out and about for a Sunday ride around the island. Once a month (or on rainy days) I will use the Jeep to pick up gardening supplies and to buy large/heavy/bulky grocery items.

Well, I'm not a tree-hugging demagogue, and probably believe more strongly in individual freedoms than most here do, but the notion of taxing gasoline any more than it already is is an affront to every working stiff who relies on his own transportation to work (and for whatever reason).

If you need contributions to help you move to Australia, please let us know and perhaps we can start a fund for you.

That's what I was getting at. It isn't that there isn't any oil, it's just that cheap oil is becoming scarcer and the supply controls are only going to work against consumers. Just because it may exist in the places you mention doesn't mean the Canadians or Brazilians are going to "give it away".

If we're in full recession swing by winter, you can bet that the first hint of "recovery" will put oil back at $100+ dollars/barrel. It isn't a matter of just how much is left and how long it will last, but how OPEC will control it moving forward to maximize their profits and longevity.

So if Brazil or Canada flood the market with cheap oil, how do you think the Saudis and OPEC will react? All they have to do is cut output of whatever supply they've got left and that stabilizes the price or pulls the price back up. Price fixing is illegal among companies who do business in the USA. Oil cartels and the global market? Price fixing is JOB #1.

The $$100+/barrel precedent has been set. Now that "they" know what people are willing to pay when the demand exists, that what's they're going to charge. When global demand is down, they'll charge less.

It's a game and we're the suckers. So go ahead, hedge your bets accordingly, but if we ever see "cheap" gas ($2+/US gallon nationally in the USA) it will only be because demand will be so low due to stagnant or worse economic growth. When things "improve", oil/gasoline prices will improve too, but for suppliers, not for consumers.

SUVs? Well, the "Big Three" made out like bandits on those babies. Where are they now?: Get your SUVs now, folks. They ain't gonna be growin' em like they used to moving forward.

As for me, yes, I believe that there are a whole lot of people out there who have absolutely no use for a large SUV or truck other than the fact that they want one. Still...

I have always been against the notion of taxing anything for the sole purpose of getting people to behave in a way that someone else thinks they should behave.

And so it was with Slovaks, Germans, Irish (remember "no Irish need apply"?), Vietnamese, Nigerians, etc. My wife's company propspers today as it was started in the late 1800's to give sell life insurance policies to Slovak immigrants that couldn't get insurance and held the crummiest jobs (much like our Mexican amigos today). Now old Slovak immigrants have more $ money than pierogies. All because they took those crummy jobs, worked and saved. Hard work never hurt anyone. (They didn't call it work. They called it opportunity!)

Respectfully, please do not dishonor my grandparents nor my wife's parents. People then often came here with nothing, and they came here often to escape circumstances far worse than many of us can imagine, and they endured hardships on the way that were far, far harder to endure than crossing a border fence or while hiding in a van (incidentally, a service that often has to be paid for...I vaguely remember something said about buying one's way in.)

And yet they managed to do so legally.

They took crappy jobs and often put up with a bunch of shit so they could stay here, had no social services watching their backs, and Oh yeah, when the Great Depression hit, they didn't scurry back home either...they stuck it out and made a life for themselves here.

Should it have been that way? I would have hoped not, but it was.
Should it remain that way? Well, it hasn't, has it?

Legally. That's the part I won't ignore.
Working hard, that's fine.
Taking jobs that no one else wants...I call bullshit. The only way employers can get away with underpaying people is when people are lining up for jobs that underpay. (BTW: I am an employer.)

Ummmm. I just realized that I've let myself be drawn in to posting a little off-topic. I better get back to researching on-line auto insurance, which was what I told my wife I was going to do. My bad.

Frack...as long a we're off topic: Here is the link to the ET4 manual I promised

http://www.hotshare.net/file/86768-7045591527.html

Get it while it's hot.

Down here in the southwest, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an illegal. Some people estimate there may be around 12 million of them in the US. They constitute a giant shadow economy here, that runs entirely on cash and outside any law or regulation. The labor-based local businesses that try to follow the rules simply can't compete.

It's not a matter of not being able to "buy" one's way in either, since the coyotes that smuggle in illegals charge up to $1200 a pop. The real problem is that we have don't have a coherent national strategy to match the supply and demand for unskilled labor from outside the country. Who knows how many are in jobs americans "won't do"? We aren't exactly sure how many illegals are here, how much they earn, etc.

We have some local governments that treat them like defectors from the Soviet Union, effectively preventing a uniified federal approach to the problem from ever working. Honestly, it's not going to change until we can all agree to pick and enforce some sort of legal framework, and see how it works for a while. Right now, it's just a big disorganized mess that doesn't really help anyone.

Some of us don't want to buy fuel efficient automobiles. There are other buying parameters that are much more important to us.

How about you buy what you want, I'll buy what I want, and nobody will fish in the middle?

http://www.websterlakeassociation.com/Links/Articles/What%27s%20the%20Name%20of%20That%20Lake.%20It%27s%20Hard%20to%20Say.htm

I don't know about sales, but I can say that over the weekend, with gas prices here being lower than they have in a very long time (I almost considered actually filling up my car all the way for the first time in what feels like forever), I have noticed a lot more of the very large SUVs back out on the road. I saw 4 H2 Hummers and an H3, neither I have seen in a long time, and a bunch of the giant Yukons or whatever on the road. And I know it has been a long time since I had seen them out, because I forgot how damn annoying they can be, especially when you're on a small scooter.

I thought that with everything that had been going on that maybe people would learn a little something, but apparently I was wrong.

ROBO i heard something similar about the oil. ARAMCO who first went over and got the ball started had long range projections and we've been seeing what they had planned at the get go over the years. The real interesting thing is all the other useful things that can be mined and make them a whole ton of money are just laying there getting further covered in sand. I went out with a irish geologist and he said they could make more money on that than oil. However it would be more WORK so he didn't expect to see it done in his lifetime I think more americans are cutting back on their fuel consumption. While they might not be riding a scooter they are taking mass transit and car pooling etc more. However we live in a big country with nasty weather in most parts so there is still a need for the big stuff. I'll let everyone worry about there own things. I do what i can and in the end that's what I can make happen.

Living in Texas as you do, I'm sure you are aware that the price of gasoline has been affected by the hurricane impact on the refineries. It is taking time to catch up with the drop in oil, but it's happening.