Modern Vespa

So, I'm still learning to ride. I'm pretty confidant in all aspects of riding now, except one thing... shifting down. I can do doughnuts and figure eights all day without a second blink. I can shift up to speed no problem by listening to the engine. But when it comes to slowing down to make a turn, I freeze. I can't fucking figure out how to tell which gear i should be in. My bike lurches and brakes all over the place when I try to shift to a lower gear. Everyone tells me, you just need to practice and it will become second nature, but I can't figure out how you tell which gear you should be in when slowing down.

I know this is a complete loser newb question, and you can laugh at me because I know this is ridiculous, but its really frustrating, and I fear my nervousness in slowing down will get me into trouble, not to mention bust up my engine. I've read all kinds of crap online, but there's never anything definite. These are some of the better things I've read:

http://www.bajajusa.com/Gentle%20art%20of%20shifting.htm

http://www.vtscoot.com/infobase/ib-13.html

Any tips?

I guess i've never really paid attention to what i'm doing. Isn't the typical driving pattern to brake into a turn and accelerate out of it, and therefore going into a turn you should be in whatever gear you're going to need to accelerate out of it in ... like second gear ?

Sounds like you're downshifting and allowing the engine to slow you down going into a turn, though. You don't HAVE to do that ... you can just pull in the clutch, apply the brakes going into the turn, then shift to second and accelerate out of it.

I dunno. Now you've got me second guessing how i drive.

Yeah, i guess you should be in second gear when turning, but what if your cruisin' at 50 and the traffic ahead of you slows but doesn't stop, how do i know which gear i should be in and how do i do it smoothly? Do I just figure out what speedometer reading matches gear?

I'm certainly no expert, I've only been shiftnig a scooter for a couple of months. I know exactly where you're coming from though.

The answer is obviously either 2nd or 3rd. You should be in one of those gears when turning (90 degree turn where you don't have to stop) 1st is for taking off from a stop, and 4th is cruising.

For me, it's different for every turn. If it's a tight turn that I need to slow down a lot for, I go with 2nd. If it's a turn where I've got more real estate and less traffic, I go with 3rd.

It also depends on how hard I'm driving. If I want to race out of the corner - 2nd gear turn.

I think that's the beauty of a manual transmission - you can vary your driving style based on the situation, or better yet - your mood.

I would forget that you even have a working speedo. Listen to the revs of the engine.

It is going to take some time. Now, for some blinding flashes of the obvious, for example, if you are moving at 60 kph, downshifting into 3rd is going to put you at rpm close to top for that gear. Obviously you can't smoothly drop down to 2nd at that speed.......

If you want a formula (not that one exists), I would offer that you make a note of the low speed at which your machine dogs in a given gear and the top speed your machine can achieve in that gear. Downshifting into that gear is smooth at slightly above the dogging speed, and halfway between dogging speed and top speed. Keep in mind that these "bands" over lap. But, do not become fixated on this, as staring at the speedo is hazardous. But as Eric says, listen to your engine and in time it will make sense to you.

With time, you will develop a feel for your machine, and downshifting will become almost second nature, much as it does in a car. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Al

I got frustrated with myself last night, and decided to take it to a huge parking lot. I thought, "I'll get into 3rd then let the bike slow down until its obvious it needs to be in 2nd". So i did that, and when it sounded like it was struggling to stay running i pulled in the clutch and shifted down. It braked hard. It only corrected itself when I rolled the throttle. What happened? Was I going to slow for 2nd?

Thanks for the help guys.

Yeah, you were basically stalling the engine by not giving it gas while it was in gear.

New riders also tend to do this at stop lights when they get anxious... they will put it in first gear and not give it enough gas and stall at the light.

Watch, I'm going to brake my bike before I even learn to ride it, then I'll be asking very different questions.

I guess I'll just keep on practicing. Thanks for the advice guys, I suppose its not something you talk or read about, its more of a 'do it until you figure it out' sorta thing.

What you could try is get out to the parking lot again, and take note of what speed you are doing in each gear before you change up. put some tape marks on the speedo, this will also give you an indication of when to change down. Although when changing down drop the spped a bit lower before changing i.e. if you change up into 3rd at 25 MPH, drop the speed to around 15-20 then change down that will also give you leeway to accelertae out of a bend in that gear before needing to change up again. By the sound of it you appear to be changing down too early in that you are going too fast for the lower gear ( that's how I read it anyway)

To be honest, like Eric, when you've been doing it for 8 years ( plus 35 years in a car) it is second nature and difficult to describe in words.
How about getting someone who is used to shifting to go out with you and give you some pointers??

Or the opposite and bring the front wheel off the ground. Don't ask me how I know this.

It does take some getting used to.

What I do is if I'm cruising in 4th and I want to slow down a bit, I'll pull in the clutch and lightly squeeze the brakes until I'm around 30ish (usually a bit below) and then I'll gently let the clutch out while almost simultaneously giving a little bit of throttle. I'm still a newbie to the whole shifting thing so I can't explain it all that well but I do know I did what you are describing a few times while learning. After a while you won't need to look at the speedometer when trying to figure out when to up or down shift.

when you pull the clutch in to down shift, blip the throttle then down shift. that way you're going from the low end of third to the high end of second and it will not brake hard.


when you shift down without blipping the throttle you go from the low end of third to the low end of second, that's why the scooter brakes hard.

Not sure if this is helpful, but you want to shift UP when you hit about 5500 RPM (you'll feel it). Which means that, when you shift DOWN from the low end of a gear, you'll want to raise the throttle up.

Where you raise the throttle to is a matter of experience (but it usually isn't WOT). With a shifter, even a car, you don't neccesarily watch your speedometer so much as watch the tachometer. The same holds true for shifty scooters, but you most likely don't have a tach so you MUST listen to the engine.

Over time, as you gain more experience with the bike, you'll subconciously know when and where to shift and how far to throttle when you do. But if you're still learning you really have to pay attention to the bike and how it feels.

Practice, practice, and more practice.

If you want that shifting cross to last don't down shift and you can get over 20000 miles on the trans without slip

How can you avoid downshifting unless you always come to a full stop when slowing down? Am I missing something here?

Al

That is very much the idea, but that being said shifting from 4 to 3 is ok you just need the rpm's down but really it depends how smooth your riding is , once you smack the cross up you can also damage the gears

Dude, seriously?

The cross is meant to wear. Downshifting is for safety. What happens when traffic starts to slow, but then speeds up again? For example, the light is red as you approach but turns green before you get there. Uh oh! You didn't downshift, so you're still in 4th and you get rear-ended as you fumble with the gear selector!

To the OP:

The best advice I can give sounds like something out of Zen and the Art of Vespa. Become one with your ride. Get a feel for how fast the engine needs to be revving in what gear to maintain what speed. With a manual gearbox, it's a fixed ratio.

As you downshift, use the throttle to match the speed of the engine to the speed you're travelling before you let out the clutch. As you slow through 35mph, drop to 3rd. 20 or so, drop to 2nd. Each time, open the throttle a little to match the engine to the wheels. Don't coast to a stop, only pull in the clutch once you're just above stall speed.

DO NOT EVER look down at the speedo, except a quick glance when you're cruising to make sure you're under the limit (or wherever you want to be.)

To be safe, you need to be able to find all the controls, know what gear you're in, know how fast you're going, and shift to the appropriate gear ALL WITHOUT LOOKING DOWN. The longer your eyes are off the road is the longer you're in danger of running into an unexpected hazard.

+ alot !! thats sounds like crazy talk

IMHO the art of good gear changing comes from anticipation and reading the road situation. My old man was a driving instructor for 30 odd years and before that he was a police motorcycle rider for about 20 years, he taught me to drive a car and always drummed into me the importance of anticipation. If you read the road and anticipate what may happen you should give yourself enough time to react (if necessary) smoothly and without hurried and panicked reactions. The physical act of changing should become second nature and you will end up doing it instinctively.

Changing to the correct gear is something you will learn from practice, personally when i started riding a geared bike i was forced into having to anticipate due to the fact that my left wrist was broken and changing gear really hurt ( yeah i know not one of my finest decisions )and i really didnt want to have to do it too many times... but it really helped me to think about the road and the 'hazards' that may or may not be there.

As thefuzzylogic said changing up is kind of like a feeling thing you'll know when to do (or your engine will scream at you and let you know).

Changing down is slightly harder, personally I break in good time, slow down and pull in the clutch, change down and let the clutch out kind of slowly at first (not too slowly though) as the gears bite if you're too fast for the gear your changing down to the engine will break too hard and you'll feel and hear it, if this is the case i usually pull the clutch in and break some more until i'm at a more appropriate speed for the gear. This all happens within a few seconds and will get less and less as you practice. If you give yourself enough time by reading the road and traffic situations then you shouldn't really have too many problems (you'll stall and miss gears and change down too early etc etc for a few days but it gets much better with practice, we've all done it its nothing to be ashamed of ) and I usually change down through the gears in sequence.

As you gain in confidence and become more adept at changing gears you will develop your own riding style and invariably end up.... riding it like you stole it

Thanks alot everyone.

I took it out to that parking lot today, and used some of y'all's advice. I think I've just about got it. I needed to remember to give it some throttle to match the RPMs to the gear. Now I just need to work on not looking at my shifter, so I can give my full attention to the road.

Thanks for the confidence boost.

[quote="christos x"] +1 on ANTICIPATION

after 11 years riding I can hardly remember what it was like learning to gearchange (I didn't drive, and hadn't even had a pushbike with gears). I do recall wheelstanding in a supermarket carpark (thankfully deserted). Scanning the road and traffic ahead is the best way to stay out of trouble and ride smooth.

+1

Also new to shifting and this thread has been v. informative. Bits of advice I'm finding real useful - don't look at the speedo, get the feel; don't look at the shifter, get the feel; when downshifting, let the rpm's lag then clutch, rev slightly, shift and let the clutch back out. Starting to get that all down and feeling good about it.

Reading this thread makes me want to go out and practice NOW! Too bad it's raining.....argagagagh

Just reading this thread I've seen a couple of references to going around a corner in neutral.

I can't explain the physics behind my advice, but you should never go around a corner in neutral. Having some drive affects the dynamics of the suspension and being in neutral can seriously alter the way your ride handles.

As said before, it's about learning what you ride does for various situations. It'll be second nature soon and you'll be giving newbies advice!!

Matt

+1 you should never really be in neutral (clutch in or otherwise) unless your changing gear or at a stand still ('real' neutral). Being in neutral gives you no control over the bike apart from breaking. Also when cornering you should have slowed down and be in the correct gear way before you enter the corner, if your in neutral while going into the corner you will very little chance of accelerating out of trouble or using your acceleration to control your cornering.

Anticipation is the key

Interesting thread - was on the PX on Saturday and really had to pay attention to my downshifting to see what I did as I downshift often. Once you do it, it just becomes natural and you don't even think about it.

What I found on Sat. for me - is mostly listening to the engine and when I step down on the gear shifter with the anticipated corner, curve, traffic, stop etc...

I would 'never' do neutral in a turn or curve - sitting at a red light, yes.

While I'm relatively new to scooters, I have a lot of experience with car racing and therefore can talk knowledgeably about grip.

As others have said, NEVER go around a corner in neutral -- not only does it affect the balance of your scooter (as it does a car), but it also severely limits your options. Basically the only thing you can do is brake, and that's generally something you want to do only very delicately and judiciously in a corner in any event. (Braking too hard in a bend is a good way to drop your scooter! Getting the back end out because of too much rear brake (or other loss of grip at the back) is called oversteer: it's bad, but sometimes recoverable by getting off the back brake and inputting some counter steer. If you're lucky you'll make it and hopefully not have a tank slapper (well, on a bike with a tank under the chest anyways!) or not crash into the object you were trying to stop for. Much worse, in my opinion, is to have the front wheel slide out -- this is understeer: it's very bad news and most often leads to a dropped bike, and possibly a pinned leg or ankle. Yuk!)

As everyone has been saying, anticipation is key. Get into a corner knowing what line you're going to take and what speed you should be carrying through the apex, but be prepared to change your line if there's something unforeseen (debris on the roadway, etc.). Cooking it too fast into a corner is bad news and doesn't leave you any options: a forced slow down just to try and make a bend might lead you to veer into oncoming traffic, which also means crossing a painted line (which has less grip than the normal road surface). In all honesty, the faster method to get around a bend and course is SLOW IN, FAST OUT, rather than fast in (because you can carry more speed onto the straight as you can accelerate sooner, rather than if you're still trying to scrub speed and just make it around a bend).

Ideally you should be entering a curve with a neutral, balanced throttle (not necessarily totally rolled off, but it depends on the bend), meaning you're not adding power or reducing it, but holding it steady at an appropriately safe speed for the given corner and road conditions, including visibility. Once you get past the apex, slowly roll on the power to the corner exit.

Basically, like a car (but with very different geometry, obviously), rolling off the throttle shifts weight to the front, getting more grip on the front wheel which helps with turn in, and on a bike causes more lean angle, too, tightening the radius of a turn. Conversely, applying throttle transfers weight to the rear, lightening the front and therefore reducing turn input, while on a bike also making it want to go more upright, reducing turn radius. The point to getting onto the throttle after the apex is to help the bike get upright with less effort on your part required via shifting balance or unnecessary steering input.

Being in the right gear is important, since you don't want to shift gears in a bend, either, if you can at all avoid it (since the weight transfer involved plays with grip levels rear and front, and affects your lean angle). You don't want your gear choice to be too low so that you have to keep very high revs to maintain your speed through the corner, and then run out of RPM as you begin to apply the throttle; likewise, you don't want too high a gear so that you're nearly bogging the engine and would require a clutch grab to prevent lurching if slowing down, nor too little available acceleration on tap when you want to speed up.

Happily, there are only four gears so your choices in turns are often limited to just second or third gear, or fourth if it's a faster speed bend. To be honest, I pretty much skip second gear on the upshifts as it slips badly, and third slips at low-to-mid throttle, but is generally usable, I just have to watch where it is in the powerband. That said, but I do both to downshift. EDIT: This is particular to my case because of transmission issues... this is not usual -- normally one goes through all the gears.

As others have mentioned, take it easy when shifting down: roll off the throttle and let the engine settle a bit; pull in the clutch; let revs drop a bit; and shift to the lower gear; blip the throttle to roughly match RPM to where they're going to be when you release the clutch; release clutch slowly. If you feel the rear wheel is getting loose, IMMEDIATELY pull the clutch back in (it's possible to lock the rear wheel by too aggressive a downshift, and its mechanically connected so it won't regain grip until you sever the connection by clutching or the tire itself happens to slow enough to match road conditions).

Basically it's all about feel. Forget the speedo. Get used to knowing how your scooter feels in each gear, and being able to make shifts smoothly. There's a direct co-relation between chosen gear, RPM, and road speed. You'll eventually get used to knowing what speed you're doing just by what gear you're in and what RPM you're doing. Once you actually get good enough, you can even shift without the clutch, but that's another story in the distant future.

I don't know why I've blathered on so much, but hopefully it's helpful to someone.

Have fun, and -- most importantly -- BE SAFE!

Cheers,
phaetn

+ 2,374,093,201

Seriously, great post.

It just takes practise to get the "feel" for the right gear depending on your speed into the corner. Of course, don't ever change to another bike, because a different gear ratio will have you totally screwed. Try glancing at your speedo as you're going into the corner, then next time your at that same speed, note what gear your in. Next corner, try that gear and see how it feels as you come out of the turn. Do you have enough behind it, or is it lagging (too high) I find on the PX it matters hardly if I'm in 2nd or 3rd on the corners because they're pretty close together anyway. Big diff on my BMW's though between 2nd and 3rd.

Eric's right though...slow in fast out

jacqui

I found this video on youtube that might help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkSVMU4D_sw&feature=related

Get Proficient Motorcycling (2nd edition) by David L. Hough. All the principles of shifting, cornering, and safety are addressed. It's like a MSF course in a book format and then some.

I see two texts that might fit the bill by Hough:

1) Proficient Motorcycling: The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well (Bowtie Press, 2000) ISBN: 9781889540535 which was then reprinted in 2008 (ISBN: 9781933958354), also by Bowtie P.

and

2) More Proficient Motorcycling: Mastering the Ride (Bowtie P, 2003) ISBN: 9781931993036.

When you mention "second edition", which do you recommend? The reprint of Proficient Motorcycling: The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well (2008 edition) or the newer More Proficient Motorcycling: Mastering the Ride (2003)?

I'll make sure to get a copy of whichever you suggest.

Thanks and cheers,
phaetn

Yeah, I've seen it. Doesn't do much for learning what the rest of the bike is doing (like the throttle and and engine speed). Thanks though.

Not sure if you've driven a manual car, but I find that downshifting ina car is very much the same as down shifting on a scooter.

To stop the lurching, you have to make sure the revs are the same as the gear you are switching too.

Say you're riding along in third gear at 30 mph, at say 4,000 revolutions per minute (revs/minute - speed engine is spinning), and want to shift down to 2nd gear. If you were to be going that same speed (30 mph) in 2nd gear, your revs/minute would be much higher - say 5,000 revs/minute.

Thus, you need to pull the clutch to take it out of gear (out of third gear), then rev the engine (to get revolutions from 4,000 revs/minute to 5,000 revs/minute), then change to 2nd gear, then re-clutch. This will allow you to go into second gear without any lurching - since you'd be at 5,000 revs/minute at 30 mph in second gear anyway. You will ease right into second, then you can let off the gas to let the gearing slow you down. I don't think you need to be very specific with increasing the revs prior to gearing down and re-clutching - you just need to rev the engine (you should hear it go higher than it is at your current speed), then downshift/reclutch before the engine revs back down.

Does this make sense? This works the same in a car and is perhaps easier to see due to the tachometer. Thats how I learned to downshift (I think in cars they call it double clutching) - by watching the tachometer and knowing I'd have to have the tachometer higher than it was in the current gear if I were to downshift (4,000 in third, i have to rev the engine higher than 4,000 to go down to second smoothly).

Good ideas. I've always been torn between down shifting coming to your normal run of the mill stop sign or just shifting back to 1st when at the stop.

As for corners, it's a feel think sometimes you can anticipate the need to downshift and other times you're going in too hot and downshifting would just bang the gears to hard and knock you off center.

In any case eventually you'll have to change the cross and although everyone makes it sound like a big jump but it's not.

I got choice 1. Great book!

Enjoy,

Yup, you've got the idea. It's not called double clutching, though, since you in fact press down the clutch once and hold it until you're ready to release it in the lower gear. It's pretty much just called blipping the throttle (to make revs match for next gear). If you're doing it under braking (as in when racing) then your right foot gets really busy doing heel and toe (pressing both pedals at once, essentially).

It's easier to do on a scoot since you can be on the rear brake while blipping the throttle, but try and do it while holding the front brake, too, and you'll get the idea of how tricky it can be.

Double clutching is something else: It's what truckers have to do -- clutch to get stick shift out of gear, then release in neutral, clutch again to get it into the next gear, then release).

Given the (relatively) lousy drum brakes on vintage scoots, I do downshift to slow down, but really a kind of coasting stop, rather than a rapid one (though with a slight pressure on back brake to engage the stop lamp as a warning to drivers behind). Note that's it's not as aggressive a deceleration when down-shifting with a two-stroke engine as a compared to a four-stroke because of differing compression ratios, I believe, and the freer wheeling two stroke cylinder jumps up to high revs more easily.

In to the turn slow out with a bit of throttle and pratice. After a thousand miles I figured I had it down. Thats when I got dangerous. Whatch your pavement for slippery stuff, but don't stare at it. R

Double clutching is needed on transmissions that aren't synchronized between gears, or those that have bad synchronizers.

I haven't driven a manual Vespa since 1967, but I remember that the bike can be shifted in motion by working the throttle against a pre-loaded shifting grip and nothing would grind. I had to use that technique a few times when I broke a clutch cable and was miles from home. I could even start from a stop like that. It was abrubpt and quite a jolt but it could be done. Vespas are amazing.

i,m nelson i rode this scooter many miles & can tell you on a normal street corner turn you don't need to go lower than 3rd gear, it will accelerate fine from speed of 15 & up , downshift 1 gear at a time don't downshift quickly this will give you the bumpy braking. when up shifting don't look at shifter just listen to the clunk when changing gear, every clunk is one gear change. drive safely take care of yourself & scooter. nelson richard